For those interested, here's a link to a scan of the Ketron Audya brochure in English: www.brugteinstrumenter.dk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=95&Itemid=2

This is an other link I found in the Korg forum (of all places) to a PDF file of the Audya brochure: www.speedyshare.com/656528329.html

[This message has been edited by Tom NL (edited 04-06-2007).]

Thanks a lot Tom, interesting to see and read

GJ
http://www.brugteinstrumenter.dk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=95&Itemid=2

...

[This message has been edited by Tom NL (edited 04-06-2007).]

Please excuse me, I accidently double posted. I haven't posted for quite a while, so I am a bit rusty I guess...

Tom, great find! Thanks a lot for sharing
I find it interesting that the only companies that are currently testing the limits of what can be done in arranger keyboards are very small companies like Ketron and Wersi.

Kind regards,
Tommy

This link to a nice picture is osted at SZ Ketron forum: http://www.mzdyeri.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7000&FORUM_ID=14&CAT_ID=4&Forum_Title=Ketron+Destek+B%F6l%FCm%FC&Topic_Title=KETRON+AUDYA+%28%28%28T%DCNEL+M%DCZ%DDK%29%29%29

Hmmm, I don't like that the "Jump" button are gone, and also that
there are only 1 fill button!
Also the "To end" button are gone, so why do Ketron remove some
of the features who really make a difference??

Come'on Ketron, it's space enough and the nice layout will not be
worse if replace that really great features!

GJ

.

[This message has been edited by LIONSTRACS (edited 04-11-2007).]

Looks good.....sounds good.....but are these new super feature packed fan-dangled arranger workstations a bit much to operate & learn for the average player?
You be the judge.....when is too much, TOO MUCH?

DNJ, you got a point here, but we still need someone to push the envelope and experiment with radically new features and designs. That might be the primary role of Ketron, Wersi and of course Lionstracs. Then we can let Yamaha/Korg/Roland produce more user friendly - and cheaper? - versions when the technology has matured.

Personally however I don't believe in gigabyte sample libraries and disk streaming in arranger keyboards. This is very complicated technology and it is still difficult to get it to work 100% perfect even on high end PC's. Arranger keyboards are primarely for live playing and in a live situation you really can't appreciate the difference between a well programmed 32 MB ROM piano sound and 10 GB disk streaming piano sound - just my opinion. In addition ROM is much more reliable than a hard disk

Kind regards,
Tommy

[This message has been edited by TommyF (edited 04-07-2007).]

The main difference between the Wersi and Lionstracs is that with the Mediastation you still need to have knowledge of computers, software and how they interact, (VSTs in particular) Wersi on the other hand requires No knowledge of computers whatsoever, (Anybody that has played an arranger or organ can start and play straight away) and the number of VSTs that can be played simultaneously has been limited so that people do not run into problems. (If you have the knowledge to use multiple VSTs then you can load a host into the Wersi host and use as many VSTs simultaneous as you believe the system can take)
Another point to note is that the Gigasampler option has been available to Wersi owners since OAS 3 or 4 (2001/2002) but was only fitted as standard on the Giga Piano. (Hence the name)
As to disc streaming itself, this solved the sample size problem, thus allowing truly astonishing sounds to be played live, however with the latest technology that is becoming available, this is starting to become less of a requirement, I am of coarse talking about the sound modelling techniques that are starting to develop and which negates the need for sampling. (From OAS 7 Wersi has introduced multiple sound synthesis and sound modelling and as this is the next logical step in sound generation, then Wersi is easily way ahead of the Mediastation.
As to CPU power, the CPU used in the Wersi instruments is just as good as that used in the Mediastation, however unlike the Mediastation which has to rely on the CPU the Wersi Instruments have there own 32 bit DSP (Digital Signal Processing) card that has the equivalent processing power greater then 6 Athlon CPUs.
From the above, while I agree that the Medistation is an excellent keyboard, (And anybody who dismisses it needs their head looking at) it is stil behind the Wersi OAS system.
Enjoy Whatever You Play

Bill


[This message has been edited by abacus (edited 04-07-2007).]

Hi Liontracs..

I have to ask you.... are you from the Liontracs company / owner or are you just a big fan of the product ????

Because I ask is... I�m a very big Ketron fan, and I have waitet on this nye Audya, but offcause I seen and listen to the Liontracs... Its a very heavy thing, can do a lot, but what about the sounds !!!! And will it also work in 3 years ?? what about repar of it ?? and did you know anything about if it will came to danmark ???
Maybe you can write to me on me email larsplovmann@pc.dk

Best regards Lars Plovmann

.

[This message has been edited by LIONSTRACS (edited 04-11-2007).]

Sorry, but the only way to judge the MS is to go to the website and listen to the demos....

And sorry, but to my ears, despite its' acknowledged technical superiority, they STILL don't hold a candle to the Big 3's TOTL offerings. Bottom line... if it walks like a duck, it IS a duck, no matter HOW many 'eagle-like' features it is supposed to have.

Everything the MS does (even the arranger section, to a certain extent) can be done with a computer, with easier workflow - no Linux 'wrappers' to have to deal with on a regular PC or Mac. If, for some reason, you GOT to have EVERYTHING inside one keyboard case, well, yes, this is your only option, but in the real world, most TOTL studios and recording facilities have a dedicated computer for these tasks (or three!), most players here got a decent computer already. Do you REALLY need to take a full recording studio out to the gig?

Until the MS demos new sounds and styles that completely destroy the competition (and yes, I HAVE heard the latest demos), this is still a great workstation, and a poor arranger (IMHO). CONTENT is what sell the arranger, not capability. Most T2 owners here probably don't use all of the available features like sampling, HD recording, but if it were to have styles that sound like the MS's, well, Roland would be a LOT happier!

The trick with arrangers is, most of the target audience have never completely programmed a style in their life. Very few of them use the sampler extensively. They don't WANT to 'program' a workstation, they just want to PLAY an arranger. If you can't open the box, take out this VERY expensive keyboard, press the power switch, load a style and COMPLETELY blow away an E80 or T2, you still have a LONG way to go in the arranger business.

You can get away with missing features as long as the styles ROCK (Technics and Ketron been doing that successfully for ages), but no amount of extra capabilities can make up for poor styles and sounds.

But don't listen to me.... go to the MS website and listen to the style demos. Then go to Yamaha's site and listen to the T2 demos. Now forget 'features', and just decide which you'd rather PLAY.....

I am still amazed at how people are refusing to understand what the mediastation is to serious professional arranger players.

To say that all that can be done on the mediastation can be done on a computer demonstrates a lack of knowledge about the mediastation.
I would definitely prefer an upgradeable arranger with my choice of giga and other high quality sounds and the ability to import almost any style.
I would not want to carry a regular computer on a gig.

The only way we can know if the mediastation sounds good or not is by playing it in person. An online demo really does not tell us how good or bad a keyboard sounds.

But having said all that, to get back on topic, the new Ketron could be a step up from the mediastation and Tyros 2 if the user interface is easy to use, the sounds and styles are customizable like the mediastation, the OS is stable and is reasonably price.

"only" 4900 euro for one piece of Audya.

Sorry, Genesys, but if the factory can't make the demos sound good, what chance do ordinary players?

I am still amazed at the number of people that leap to the defense of this piece of kit, but NOT ONE has ever posted anything that even remotely compares to a T2 or E80 (or even a PSR3k!). Sure, you can play B4 or GigaPiano, but only on top of less than stellar styles.

You NEVER see Yamaha go 'Let's make our demos sound crappy, so potential buyers can only imagine how much better it will sound after they have re-voiced it for a few months'.......

Unless they are total morons (which I doubt!), if the factory guys can't make it sound great, it can't be made to sound great. Prove me wrong... PLEASE!

Styles from Tyros 2 played on Wersi OAA (Open Art Arranger)

1. Baroque Concerto http://download.yousendit.com/F238598E4B2BFF46
2. Bosa Nova http://download.yousendit.com/B4FCF59426C989EA
3. Classic big Band http://download.yousendit.com/69FC4CE45D55EEB9
4. English Waltz http://download.yousendit.com/2AE475D75B120619
5. Flamenco http://download.yousendit.com/7D5B78690512FE86

Then have a listen to the demos here http://www.wersi.net/html/tontrager.html

Enjoy


Bill


[This message has been edited by abacus (edited 04-09-2007).]

OMG they sound awesome!!!!


[This message has been edited by Nick G (edited 04-10-2007).]

Yes, Wersi is really good, but expensive:

Wersi OAS-Preisliste 2007

By example the "cheapest" Wersi Abacus configuration with real drums and the new arranger software will cost you EUR 8.380. If we subtract 19% german VAT and convert to USD this amounts to USD 9400!

Kind regards,
Tommy

Yes I agree, in the short term they are expensive, but in the long term they are quite cheap, (When you buy a Wersi you keep it for life and just update the software and standard PC computer hardware) as you don�t have to keep trading them in to get new technologies.
BTW The cheapest Wersi is actually the Ikarus, not the Abacus.
Also forget straight conversions from Euros, as they bear little relationship to the price of the instruments in other countries. (This applies to all boards not just Wersi)
Enjoy whatever you play

Bill

Diki,
Just because the demos of the MS may be less than stellar doesn't mean the board's not capable of producing good quality. Lionstracs is a small company. There's the good and bad. The most obvious is Dom doesn't have the financial resources of the big three, so a team of demo production specialists may not be within his reach due to cost. I think the demos out there at least give an "idea" of what the units can do, and that's the whole purpose of a demo. It's to give an idea of the unit can do. Again the quality of that "idea" rests heavily on available funds.

However with the big 3 you'll never get the level of customer service as you do from Dom. How many keyboard companies have the CEO problem sovling directly with the customer? How many CEO's show up at your door step to help (as Dom has done).

The MS is an awesome unit, and I think the biggest hold back for it in the arranger community is the word "computer". The MS is basically a killer midi controller built around a computer. The MS has an indepth operating system and is capable of doing things that would put closed system arrangers to shame. However these features aren't known because arranger buyers are commmonly looking for the "out of box" type unit. Often IMO I find that arranger players don't want to fiddle with indepth editing and a "computer like" operation system. Sometimes saying the word "midi" here is like yelling FIRE in a crowded room

I think that "out of the box" expectation is a definitive line between the arranger player and synth player. Synth players like to "program", and "edit" until our fingers can't take it no more Arranger players IMO often look for the "instant gratification" and there's nothing wrong with that either. Just two different sides of the music world of performers really.

Hi,

in my experience I would like to suggest you to not judge a sound in terms of Gbytes.
A 3 or 4 GB piano it's not for sure better of a smaller one.
I remember one of the best piano I've tried was a small size one, from the Miroslav Vitous collection. While sampling there are too much factors that change the sound (mic type, mic position, pre-amp used, wave editing, etc) and for sure Miroslav big experience (and very good hears) has done a much better job than others around.

Of course this library is now old and most of the current one are far better, anyway what impressed me (but also some friends around) was to understand that these few MB of sample were much better than the fabulous GigaPiano for instance.

Just sharing my ideas.

Regards.


[This message has been edited by Booby (edited 04-10-2007).]

Hi again Liontracs / Dominic...
Can I write to you ??? Perhapse you can write to me... I have something I wanna talk to you about...

Kind regards
Lars Plovmann

But squeak.... the MS is being marketed as an ARRANGER. Domenik is posting here, not on the workstation forum (well, maybe he is, I don't go there! But this is what is demoed on HIS site, NOT primarily it's workstation capabilities).

This is an awfully expensive arranger with very few good styles. All I am saying is, will the people who claim we just don't 'get it' PLEASE post something that proves that they do.....

It's kind of like saying that a Cray supercomputer has limitless possibilities, but for all but the world's top programmers, you can't even surf the web or write an email on it without first writing the entire program....!

For it's non-arranger functions, most of us already have a computer already capable of doing that. So why pay so much for a crippled arranger? Domenik just simply refuses to understand the arranger market. It is styles, styles, styles, THEN features. His development path seems to be features, features, features, then MAYBE styles. No.... let's add one more 'feature' - nobody needs good styles, they are all world class style developers. Let them roll their own.

Squeak, be honest. When you go out and gig, how many of the styles you use did you write completely by yourself? Imagine having to write all the ones you DO use before you could even gig. Not a pleasant thought. And you are one of the few real 'tweakheads' here. 99% of us won't touch an arranger with a barge-pole if we had to write all our own styles (to sound as good as a T2 comes out of the box). Maybe Dom is willing to show up on our doorsteps and program some T2-beating styles. Now THAT would be customer service....!

Domenik had better decide if he wants to make an arranger, or a workstation, and soon. Either quit making new 'features' and spend an entire year of R&D money on styles ALONE, give up on the thought that there are many potential customers willing to 'roll their own', or move over to the workstation forum, and market the MS as it really IS.... a very capable workstation with some half-baked styles in for quick songwriting.

We don't want 'potentiality', we want 'reality'!

Diki, I understand your points man I really do, but I also am not as hard on Dom as I guess others would be given the size of his company compared to the big three ya know.

About using my own styles... Did it ALL THE TIME man The thing is that I like writing styles. Sure there were some preset styles that I edited. Got rid of this track, added that track, took out the boring snare part, made it more lively ect.

I guess what's different with me than with some here is I LOVE TO PROGRAM Some here aren't into it, and there's NOTHING wrong with that at all. Me I like to rip into something and turn it inside out if I can.

I think if Dom had better style writers he'd have much more success with the MS. I too agree that the styles are the weakest point on the MS. You are right that in "arrnager world" it's styles, styles, styles. Hopefully in time Dom can employ some good style writers. He has got the system, the sounds, and the interface. Just needs a few good people behind the controls.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 04-10-2007).]

Hi Lionstracs
To help you along, why don�t you post some Tyros 2 styles demos, as I believe you said in a previous thread that the Mediastation can now use Yamaha styles? (It should also help to show its arranger capabilities)
It will certainly be cheaper then having to spend vast amounts on developing your own styles. (Wersi learnt a long time ago that for a small company to output the same number of styles as the big boys is a no go situation, but if you can play the big boys styles then you can concentrate on moving the technology forward)
BTW For Korg uses I have been informed that Direct Play of Korg Styles is the next to be implemented on the Wersi OAA. (Open Art Arranger)
Enjoy whatever you play

Bill

Bill,

It is interesting that Wersi can play Yamaha - and soon Korg - styles directly, but do they really sound as good as on the original keyboard they came from? Yamaha styles depend heavily on Megavoices and Korg styles use the RX sounds. And having the original drum and bass sounds is also very important. I can't see how the result can be better than styles converted with software like Style Works which normally need a lot of tweaking to sound acceptable.

Kind regards,
Tommy

[This message has been edited by TommyF (edited 04-10-2007).]

All around are good styles. You must only pick up them and you can play. But what is with you guys. You are complaining about that some keyboard is weak about styles. On other side you are saying that big three are having all. I can say you that are no keyboard that is having all. But you must make your own styles or own sounds. That is possible only with open keyboards. Please don't say me that out of box are good keyboards. Let me know is somebody is playing now on arranger from 20 years ago on live performance. But with open source keyboard it can be possible and this is what is causing afraid for all closed keyboards manufacturers.

I thing now is time to say that in future we will need open systems. LIONSTRACS MS, WERSI, KETRON AUDYA and many others must come out in every store and this is not enough, if seller will not know to sell them. I saw guys who afraid to sell these things because they don�t know that also these things are out of box. You must only thing what you need. If you need this out from box than you can not expect the best from them but if you know to use them than you can see that this are really good powerful things.

Guys please don�t say that factory styles are all. Here is possible much more.

I told you a long time ago that I will not post any of my song here because some of you are really like children. If somebody wants to hear my keyboards than can e-mail me and I will give him my MSN or YAHOO MSN and we can play together and share minding.

I was only sorry that I can not test AUDYA on MUSIC MESSE. Next year KETRON can prepare some AUDYA for testing. I don�t know why no keyboards there were for test. But demonstration was really great. I want only to see if all that is played by player but that was not possible to see.

I was also not seen WERSI there. Is nothing new or is this fair not important for them?

But I test new models of LIONSTRACS MS. I can tell you that are really faster and better.

Thanks that you read my post and sorry if I disturbed somebody here. I did not want to do that.


MAGICA ALFA

[This message has been edited by Magica Alfa (edited 04-10-2007).]

.

[This message has been edited by LIONSTRACS (edited 04-11-2007).]

Hi Tommy
The five styles I have posted are genuine Tyros 2 styles played back with the OAA (No editing or modification) on the Wersi OAS instrument, so if you have access to a Tyros 2, or can listen to some Tyros 2 demos, then you can make your own decision as to how accurate they are.
Enjoy whatever you play

Bill

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Booby:
[B]Hi,

in my experience I would like to suggest you to not judge a sound in terms of Gbytes.
A 3 or 4 GB piano it's not for sure better of a smaller one.
I remember one of the best piano I've tried was a small size one, from the Miroslav Vitous collection. While sampling there are too much factors that change the sound (mic type, mic position, pre-amp used, wave editing, etc) and for sure Miroslav big experience (and very good hears) has done a much better job than others around.

Of course this library is now old and most of the current one are far better, anyway what impressed me (but also some friends around) was to understand that these few MB of sample were much better than the fabulous GigaPiano for instance.

Just sharing my ideas.

Regards.

Good post and true too.
Big pianos like bosendorfer 290 and steinway D sounds good ( 1300-1800Mb) but this do NOT mean also that smmall giga pianos around 10-20-30Mb are really sounds good too.
If you look at our last GIGA sounbank 8530:
http://www.lionstracs.com/store/giga-sounbank-8530-p-167.html
we have inside 1670 GIGA Instruments, all around from some 1-2 Mb up yo 100-150Mb max to some big pianos.
We have also a lot of Acustic pianos with 5-10Mb that are sounds good too, just 1 layer but are sounds good.
Then look at the new Hyper drumskits too: http://www.lionstracs.com/store/hyper-drums-p-166.html
20 drumkits all around 20-25Mb only, BUT are SOUND AMAZING!

The concept of GIGA that I mean here is totally different!

IF with your T2 or Korg you have to loading JUST 20-30Mb of data, you have to smoking a couple of Malboro and then you are ready to start to play some and when you have to loading another styles with some MB again...smoking again untill you are ready to play again.

Under the Mediastation is totally different, befause we streaming from HD the all sounds and all in realtime.
30-50Mb of Piano in about 0.5 second! This is the difference.
Of course with the Mediastation you can browse the full GIGA library and link the desidered sounds under one hardware key and recall then when you like in REAL TIME.

Of course some GIGA sounds are not so good for you, but maybe are good for another user.
How you can see in my webpage, we contine also offer new GIGA sounds and in midle this week will be available another 45 Real Drumkits and another 300 Instruments, then we are close to 16.000 Mb of FREE GIGA Library.

What you can do with your T2? Browser the all CLOSED 512 sounds and then smoking ton of BOX just for play some more new sounds?
How much $$ they will ask you just for ONE new sounds?
If you then need have 20-80 new T2 sounds how much you have spend?
Not so much?
then buy one PC laptop too ( just look how many here have it) for playing Mp3 songs because a lot here can NOT play one arranger keyboard.
Someone here need STYLES..STYLES and STYLES, yes, because you need Min of 1000 styles OR tou can NOT cover 3 hours of gig's and other musician need MIDIFILES..MIDIFILES..MP3...MP3...because is more easy and sounds much better.

How Bill say always:
Enjoy whatever you play...

Cheers

If the greatness of an arranger is determined by the factory styles out of the box, then we have gone back in terms of music skill level and technology.
I expect that from a low level Casio but not a high-end arranger.

How lazy are people to want to turn on a keyboard and play with a glorified midi player (that is all a style is) and don�t personalize the style?

The beauty of an arranger is that you don�t have to play a song exactly the way it sounds on the recording.

I would say that if you are using more than 20 styles on a 2 hour gig, then you haven�t figured the secret of an arranger.

If the people who want Out of the box styles with no ability to personalize the style, then maybe they should think about playing midi files on their gigs.

Give me a few good styles and the capability to personalize the styles and to make my own, and I along with most professional arranger players would take that over a keyboard filled with glorified midi files.

Specifically about the new Ketron, With all the new advances of that keyboard, if the keyboard does not have the greatest factory styles OTB but has a lot of features to enhance and personalize ones performance on a gig I suppose the ones who are fighting arranger technology would not consider it an arranger?

Alfa, Domenik, everybody else pushing the MS. Prove me wrong.... PLEASE!

You MUST realize by now just how much squeak is in the minority. VERY, very few of us program our own styles. Sure, a FEW of us might be willing to do some fine tweaking on a style that is 'nearly there', but you can count how many here are willing to roll their own entire style collection on the thumbs of one hand!

What few of us that are complaining about restrictive OSs in the Big 3's TOTL arrangers aren't the market you are needing. The only way to beat the big boys is to offer capabilities beyond their offerings WITHOUT making us compromise on styles to achieve it.

But asking us to want an 'open system' arranger WITHOUT top-of-the-line styles being provided puts it in the hands of the tiny, tiny fraction of arranger users that DO want to roll their own. Maybe you think staying tiny and niche market is good for the company. But the reason Yamaha et al have such big budgets for style development is because they sell to the majority of players that want an arranger.

Sure, we'd LOVE to have better features, too, but first and foremost we want great styles. The only people you hear griping about poor features are the ones that AREN'T griping about poor styles. Without the great styles, who cares about the features...?

We've gone round and round this topic before, but despite several software and soundware revisions, the MS is still, OOTB, a poor comparison to even a PSR3k. At four times the price. If you have ever wondered why this keyboard does not already dominate the market, you ONLY have to listen to the styles - and by the way, you do not need a fancy demo, but you DO need better sounding styles, nobody cares how good the soloist is on the top of the style, but anyone can listen to a style and hear a dog!

Touting the MS's ability to play Yamaha styles (poorly in comparison to a Yamaha) only begs the question 'well, why not just get a Yamaha, and sound BETTER?'

That's a question I'd like to hear an answer to... (other than a Nigel Tufnell-esque 'Yeah......, but these go to 11!)

you definitely have a point but still... the factory styles on the T2 and G70/E80/PA800 are awesome! Factory styles are now at a point where they are completely playable in a live situation and sound live/real/cd quality... the fact that minimal tweaking needs to be done is already a reason to spend AUD 5k + on one of these top end arrangers...

there are always people who like tweaking and customising, so the features are also there for you...

to me those Tyros 2 demos from the Wersi OAS sounded unbelievable but then again, do you really want to pay double or triple the price of a Tyros 2 to improve the sound quality?

That is insulting to anyone that uses a modern TOTL arranger. ALL of the major's arrangers give you EXTENSIVE abilities to personalize the style. But they make it so you don't HAVE to. Unfortunately, the MS is going to make you HAVE to tweak extensively, just to get up to the quality of a PSR3k, yet alone a T2! Plenty of us tweak the factory styles in our T2's and G70's. But most of us realize that if the style is a dog in the first place, you are just t*rd polishing. It's a LOT easier to tweak a great style than a bad one.

And, if you CAN make the MS sound that good, why in heaven's name have Lionstracs not already done it? If creating a style library is SO difficult, and so expensive that they can't afford to do it, how on earth do they expect the majority of their customers to have skills they don't possess themselves...? If the manufacturer can't realize the potential of their own product, what right do they have to demand that we DO..?

The sad thing is, we DO 'get it'. We DO realize what the 'potential' is. We just can't HEAR IT....!

The next thing I want to hear is a style demo that blows me away. Don't bother posting to tell me about the potential. Don't bother posting to tell me how much all the other guy's arranger suck because they are 'closed'. Don't bother posting to tell me I just don't understand the MS.

Either post something that rivals the majors, or just go away until you can.....

I think what u have to understand Diki is that the MS is for an extreme niche market. There will be people who will want it but on the other hand people buy arrangers because they come pre loaded with all the goods...

I for sure would NOT want to spend so much money on a tool that comes with the 'potential' to sound a bit better than something less than half its price...

[This message has been edited by Nick G (edited 04-10-2007).]

This is old story new players.

I'm user and I like concept of MS or WERSI or other open source keyboards.
I can tell you that some of members are funny here.

I'm happy if I can make my own style or my own modification of song, because otherwise my keyboard is not usable. In this case I can use mp3 player.

Please don't say that styles are good only from box (even 3 big). Some are really good that is all. Other will be in next edition of new keyboard.

Because of that I'm angry on all this arrangers that are fine in this moment but what happened in next years.

I thing here are some guys. Those are afraid of future (maybe their).

Please correct me if I�m wrong.

And one more thing styles are every day better. In this moment they are incorporating live virtual guitarist, live drummer, live bassist and real instruments. If somebody can do that better you are welcome.

But funny thing is that they are mine. And other players will not play same or maybe.

I�m very proud on people like SQUEAK. Only with this kind of people who are making own personalization can be keyboards better. Otherwise we will be lost in world of DJ�s.

Best regards.


MAGICA ALFA

Well �who the cap fits let them where it�.

I just don�t think that it is correct to imply that most professional gigging arranger players are want to be DJs and depend on a factory style to make them sound good and that they don�t have any understanding of keyboard technology and how to please the audience with their vision of a song.

When we say that the value of a high-end arranger to a professional gigging musician is the OTB styles, it only gives arranger players a bad rap. It says that arranger players don�t understand keyboard technology and that arranger players have no concept as to how to personalize and play an instrument. It puts arranger players in the realm of a DJ.

The fact is that some people just do not want to understand the value and concept of these newer arrangers that are being developed.

To compare the price of a long-lasting mediastation to a regular arranger by just taking in to consideration the styles clearly demonstrates a lack of understanding of these newer keyboards.


If I were to sum up these newer arrangers in one word I would use the word INTEGRATION. These newer arrangers allow you to integrate arranger playing, sequenced midi files, mp3s and audio files, CD, videos, sampling, software sounds and standard keyboard playing�..

So on that one gig, you can play with styles, play with just a piano sound, use custom made sounds, when you are on a break play a MP3 or CD and so on all on the same machine.

I think that that is a good value for a gigging musician especially to get major upgrades you don�t necessarily have to by a new board.


Now don�t get me wrong having good styles is important. But to stress picture perfect styles as being the deal breaker between getting one of these newer arrangers is the mentality of a home player and not a professional player.

Having picture perfect CD sounding styles is primarily for home users. After all that is who the arranger market is geared for. And that has been admitted by one of the big manufacturers (remember they would not make 76 keys because they say their target market does not want it).

The professional player is an after thought for a 61 key closed system arranger.

Oddly enough, The manufacturers that have open systems and innovative keyboard features are the ones who have 76 key on their arrangers. Even Korg and Roland, although they have closed systems, are constantly updating their 76 key arrangers. It looks like they are looking out for the professional gigging musician.

But I guess to each his own.

ide like to clarify something if I may about the MS in terms of its arranger capabilities...

put aside the additional features such as MP3 and audio playback from the MS and lets compare it to a Roland E80/G70, Korg PA, yamaha Tyros.

lets classify them all as 100% arrangers just for this argument...

a T2/PA800/E80 each have full blown style creation from scratch as well as editing of existing styles and sounds...

what additional (if any) editing features does the MS have that one of these arrangers cannot do in order to produce a 'better' or more customized style / backing rhythm??

I am quite positive that most OMB artists on this forum are using mainly the factory styles for their backing but I highly doubt they are being left unedited in some form or way, that is becuase all TOTL arrangers have such extensive editing/creation capabilities...

the point i am trying to make here is i am not "trashing" the MS in any way, but the vibe i am getting is that you guys seem to talk about the T2, G70, E80, PA800 as if they were 'weak' arrangers or incompetent for live gigging over the MS...

The MS has awesome features and i am sure there are MUCH MUCH more... but in terms of being an arranger, what can it do more than our TOTL arrangers of today??

I understand your point, but anyway I've no need to change all the sounds every song I play. I rely on the basic sounds of my Pa1X (loading time = 0), than I've added 3 sounds of my need that anyway I load once at the start-up and it's done. This is my real world use actually. If I like, say, a piano sound I load it once and I go for it all the day, not changing it every song. This desperate need to load sounds is not normal in my daylife.



I'm sorry to say you that, despite you may be right or not, you cannot make here advertising for one product despite to others. We know you are part of the Liontracks development team and if Yamaha, Roland, Korg and Ketron will start pushing their product and putting "smoke" over competitors this forum will became soon useless for customers being broken any freedom and transparency policy.
No offence intended, but I would like moderators to look at this (including also other product "pushers" around ....).
I'm sorry, but I believe this forum must remain in customer's hands. Hope other attendants agree on this.



no probs here, Pa1X handle mp3 (play/record) and cd too since 2003, so it's long time we enjoy this feature ....

Ps1: again no offence intended.
Ps2: can someone change this topic name ?!

Again this is just my thought.

Best regards.

please...do not compare "apples" with "strawberries"...even if we like both...

Well if we are going to use that type of apples to oranges logic, what does the Tyros 2 have over the PSR 3000 in terms of editing arranger features.

We expect the manufacturer to listen to the customers but deny him to take part in the discussions on this forum. I find this very odd.

To me it's not the styles but the arrangement that makes the difference. Anyone can play a song but not everyone can make it sound good. A good style doesn't make a bad player sound any better.

Well said Taike

Squeak

Same old lines, same old lack of an EXAMPLES.

If any of the MS 'defenders' could post ONE style mp3 that is better than my G70, well, they probably would have, by now.

It's all very well to say that for a 'professional' arranger player, you COULD sound a lot better than a T2, etc., but apparently, there are NO MS's in the hands of these mythical creatures, because NOT ONE of them has ever posted an example.

Despite my last post, here are the same names, with NOTHING to back up what they say. There's a job in the Bush administration for people with that attitude.....

Talk about stubborn..... First and foremost, this is an ARRANGER forum. GET IT? There is absolutely no point in talking about other 'features' until that one is working. You don't extol the 'rich Corinthian leather' until the engine runs. You don't talk about the integrated mp3 player if the styles SUCK..... GET IT?

I've GOT an mp3 player. Most of us do. I wouldn't pay money for a lousy arranger if it has an mp3 player in it, or even an espresso machine (but I'd be much more interested in the espresso machine!).

I've got a computer DAW. Most of us do. I wouldn't pay a ton of money for a lousy arranger with a DAW built in (still prefer the espresso machine)...

I've got tons of VSTi's. Most of us do. I wouldn't pay a lot more than my G70 for a lousy arranger that could play VSTi's (maybe if it had a Zanex dispenser, I wouldn't CARE that the styles suck!).

If Domenik hasn't figured out by now that features will sell his product to a tiny handful of brave souls that don't really need good styles, and are probably going to use it as a mp3 or MIDI file player in all probability (that's a 'professional DJ', not a pro ARRANGER player), and bypass the vast majority of arranger users that want all his 'features', but ONLY after he stuffs it with TOTL styles first, well, he's doomed, I tell you..... DOOOOOOMED!
_____________________________________________________

Still waiting to hear a decent style mp3 from all you suckers that claim you DO 'get it'...... or is it you just expect someone ELSE to 'get it', and then want to use THEIR styles? Very 'professional'!

Come on, all you 'pros'..... Bueller.......Bueller........ . . . . . . .

thanks for taking my question seriously...not

INTEGRATION INTEGRATION INTEGRATION

That is what a lot of people don�t seem to get with these newer arrangers. To say that one already has a computer, VSTs, an mp3 player, a CD player so there is no need for a Mediastation, shows that the concept of the mediastation is not understood.

Sure I have a computer, VSTs an MP3 player an arranger all separate. I really don�t want to carry all of them on a gig. What the mediastation and now the new Ketron hope to do is to eliminate having to carry a lot of things on a gig.

If you can use sounds from almost any source (VSTs, samples) in a style or as a right or left hand part all on one keyboard, that is a major improvement from having to carry an arranger, a computer on a gig an trying to get that set-up to work.

You can also use audio sound clips to enhance the gig. And now with the new Ketron, you can INTEGRATE audio loops in to a style. Also, some of these newer arranger are getting to the place where you can play other manufacturers styles on their keyboard.

If I use a VST in a recording and I want to perform the song at a gig, the keyboard that allows me to play VSTs on an arranger is good.

If the value of an arranger is just the OTB styles, then the Tyros 2, G70 and PA1X, Genesys are over priced.

Because I could bet you that if you get a real good arranger player and entertainer, and give him one night on a Tyros 2 and another night on a Radio shack keyboard, the reaction from the audience to the styles would be the same.

The good keyboard/arranger players really do not need stellar OTB styles. They have the knowledge and skills to make the styles their own and work for them on stage. If people are so dependent on OTB styles on an arranger then they probably are not as proficient on a keyboard as they claim to be. I know that may sound harsh but there is no other reason for the constant crying for perfect factory styles.

If I had a mediastation, I would not upload a demo because no matter what is done there does not appear to be a real effort to understand the concept of these newer high-end arrangers.

--------------------------------------------
The good keyboard/arranger players really do not need stellar OTB styles. They have the knowledge and skills to make the styles their own and work for them on stage. If people are so dependent on OTB styles on an arranger then they probably are not as proficient on a keyboard as they claim to be. I know that may sound harsh but there is no other reason for the constant crying for perfect factory styles.
--------------------------------------------

Harsh??? Yeah that may be a little harsh, but I have to admit it also makes sense. That's why I've said that IMO some are "too reliant" on the perfect style. To be honest one of the negative stereotypes associated with arranger is due to the heavy reliance on the "preset" styles. Again I've heard many demos on this forum that were so clearly 95% preset style based, and the user playing overtop of it. Me I like to hear more of someone's "personal flavor" to the styles. Again just my opinion..... I also understand that many aren't into editing either, which is really IMO what arrangers are also designed for. It's again the "out of the box" experience here.

Squeak

To integrate ALL these features, FIRST you have to start with a great arranger. THEN you integrate the other stuff. As I said, a world class DAW grafted onto a poor arranger is no bargain.

And a poor arranger is one that comes with poor styles, poor sounds, and makes you make all your own. Purists may disagree, but short of a couple of demonstrators and guys that do NOT use an arranger for a general purpose gigs, NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON here admits to ONLY using self-created styles.

In fact, the quality of the OOTB styles, and the sounds they use are the primary topic for discussion here, and the primary reason anyone chooses one arranger over another. Of course, this is only the real world, NOT that fantasy place Dom and Alfa live in, where everyone only uses self-made styles, is incredibly talented at creating new styles, and has a world-class sampling and sequencing lab at their disposal.

That's a real good example of a good entertainer needing only a Radio Shack arranger to entertain. So if this is true, why on earth would he spend even MORE for an MS? According to you, it makes no difference. PLEASE.....

First of all, Genesys, do you actually have an MS? If not, according to Dom and others that do, you are in no better position to praise it than we are to damn it. Somehow, magically, posted specs and demos mean nothing unless you actually OWN one (good marketing hype, there!). Sick demos of lame styles only go to show how much better YOU could make it, NOT how poor it actually is.... (Bush could sure use these guys right about now.....!)

Apparently, the lamer the demo, the more it proves how good the MS is.... Dom needs to hire me. I bet with considerable effort, I could actually make something that sounded even WORSE! Sales will go through the roof! Yamaha's board of directors will commit seppuku! Linux will buy out Microsoft! Arab and Jew will dance in the streets together! The lamb will lie down with the lion!

And trust me, the first thing I EVER hear out of the MS that actually lives up to the hype, I will GLADLY be the first to say it (and put my order in). I have nothing against the MS, only its' continued unfulfilled promise. OK, I take that back. I need to hear maybe a hundred styles that rock me (like I would get out of any other TOTL arranger) and THEN I'll take it back!

Strange that the guys that DON'T own an MS are the ones coming to it's defense, but mostly deafening silence from those that DO..... Hmmmmmm.......

Just to be clear, I do not have a mediastation. Also, I am not an apologist to the mediastation.

I just don�t like when people keep insulting and belittling us professional arranger players.

I and I suppose along with most other professional arrangers players would never buy an arranger just based on whether or not the OTB styles are TOTL. To me that is just ridiculous and a waste of money.

When I got my Genesys that was not even a consideration for me.

I buy an arranger so that I can make it my own. I am not just talking about making a style from scratch, but taking an existing style or parts of a style and putting my own personal touch.

On a gig, the styles I use are custom styles, which could be styles made from scratch or modified onboard styles.

I buy an arranger to last me a good 5-7 years. I build my custom sounds and personal style library. This way, my audience get to know me by my sound. Unlike some people, I don�t buy a keyboard to change in 2 years.

The technology on these newer arrangers to me is not the problem. It is whether or not they are easy to use on the fly and whether they are reliable which are the gripes I have with the Genesys.

The example I used with a Radio Shack keyboard support my point because how many pro musicians do you know who gig with a radio shack arranger. Probably none or not many. You know why because although they can probably use the keyboard just based on the styles, they know that there is much much more to a professional arranger that just OTB styles. Features is a major consideration.

Don�t know about the US but here in Europe only beginners and novices buy arrangers for styles, once they have progressed, the sound of the instruments, and the ease of use and community spirit take over.
The same applies to modifying styles, (and in mainland Europe this includes the extensive use of Midi and MP3 files) each performer tries to develop their own sound style.
BTW Dikki would you buy a Mediastation if it could play Roland Styles?
Enjoy whatever you play

Bill

I have been sitting on my hands staying out of this repeated debate with no end in sight. But i just could not stay quiet as this debate meanders accross arguments over what constitutes a professional keyboard player, a home player, people great at making styles, who shoul be insulte from who shouldnt etc . None of this has anything to do with the problem , and it is a very obvious problem with the marketing of the Ms.

The MS has bags of potential , no one is denying this. All someone has to do is look at the spec and the monthly updates coming out of MS. However .....listen with your ears and tell me if you would be confident in purchaseing one today, not when it actually fulfills its potential but right now ?? I get the integration argument, genuinley i do.(but the integration must result in a great sounding aranger yes ? ) I get the speed of loading huge giga samples (even the free ones shipped with the instrument , genuinely i do ( but the use of fast loading giga samples must result in a great sounding arranger yes ? ), I get the concept of continually updatable software and the potential for a single purchase lasting a life time. This is potentially my dream keyboard. But i just cant get past the problem of my ears and the problem with the credibility of the instrument in real use today when the manaufacture cannot seem to make the instrument sound even as good as its competitors. Scratch that ...even as good as the radio shack keyboard.

This whole discussion would be killed dead in its tracks if either liontracks or individuals would actually demonstrate the quality of the instrument today with good demos .Can we stop pushing the "potential" argument , as its more than wearing thin right now. If i were a professional arranger player i would not sell my services based upon my potential to sound great for your booking but post poor demos on my website to promote my services so why am i expeted to buy an instrument that i would use to make a living based upon its potential to sound good having poor demos to base that decision upon ?

Diki posted some demos of the instrument from the companies website showing a style with an incredibly poor guitar ( that was not the only thing poor about the style). Did anyone actually listen to the style ????? Well did you ???? Are you telling me that your ears could not hear how poor that was ? Dom , explain how this gives confidence to potential customers ?????This was something the manufacturer put up for musicians like you and me to have confidence in the "potential " of the instrument.....

Its not even funny anymore.

Now we have hijacked this thread enough, lets either post on topic or move to the other Mediastation thread if we want to dance this ridiculous dance again.

I have been sitting on my hands staying out of this repeated debate with no end in sight. But i just could not stay quiet as this debate meanders accross arguments over what constitutes a professional keyboard player, a home player, people great at making styles, who shoul be insulte from who shouldnt etc . None of this has anything to do with the problem , and it is a very obvious problem with the marketing of the Ms.

The MS has bags of potential , no one is denying this. All someone has to do is look at the spec and the monthly updates coming out of MS. However .....listen with your ears and tell me if you would be confident in purchaseing one today, not when it actually fulfills its potential but right now ?? I get the integration argument, genuinley i do.(but the integration must result in a great sounding aranger yes ? ) I get the speed of loading huge giga samples (even the free ones shipped with the instrument , genuinely i do ( but the use of fast loading giga samples must result in a great sounding arranger yes ? ), I get the concept of continually updatable software and the potential for a single purchase lasting a life time. This is potentially my dream keyboard. But i just cant get past the problem of my ears and the problem with the credibility of the instrument in real use today when the manaufacture cannot seem to make the instrument sound even as good as its competitors. Scratch that ...even as good as the radio shack keyboard.

This whole discussion would be killed dead in its tracks if either liontracks or individuals would actually demonstrate the quality of the instrument today with good demos .Can we stop pushing the "potential" argument , as its more than wearing thin right now. If i were a professional arranger player i would not sell my services based upon my potential to sound great for your booking but post poor demos on my website to promote my services so why am i expeted to buy an instrument that i would use to make a living based upon its potential to sound good having poor demos to base that decision upon ?

Diki posted some demos of the instrument from the companies website showing a style with an incredibly poor guitar ( that was not the only thing poor about the style). Did anyone actually listen to the style ????? Well did you ???? Are you telling me that your ears could not hear how poor that was ? Dom , explain how this gives confidence to potential customers ?????This was something the manufacturer put up for musicians like you and me to have confidence in the "potential " of the instrument.....

Its not even funny anymore.

Now we have hijacked this thread enough, lets either post on topic or move to the other Mediastation thread if we want to dance this ridiculous dance again.

Hi Spalding
Glad to see you are still around. (I thought you might have left)
In case you missed it in another thread, there are 2 open days at the Blackpool keyboard Festival which runs from the 11 -18th May, the days being Sunday & Wednesday, if you are available to pop up you will be able to compare the boards side by side. (Don�t think the MS is there though)
BTW What did you think of the demos I posted on page 1
Enjoy whatever you play

Bill

Hi Bill.There is no question that the Wersi right now has to have gotten the big three very nervous especially as it has now been able to demonstrate its ability (not potential) to clone very accurately other manufacturers styles. I really love what i am hearing from wersi and as far as the "open system argument" is concerned , Wersi wins it hands down.I have heard that the OAS7 has had some teathing problems in relation to some bugs but there is not high end instrument made that does not suffer from this. The only obstacle for me is the price and the after sales support. When i contact the dealer in the UK ,(cant remember the name) and asked for a demo CD from which i could virtually demo the unit i was given a CD featuring the OAS3 !!!! Not a positive first experience but that does not cloud my opinion of the instrument. Unfortunately i have no holidays left so i cant make it down to the blackpool event . Is there any reason why they are not recorded so that others can at least listen to the perfgormances virtually ?

Hello Spalding
Harmony Music should have sent you the OAS 6 Demo disc by Stephan Weiler, but as this is now water under the bridge, they missed an opportunity.
The latest Demo CD (Which is for OAS 7) has been done by Mark Whale, (If you follow the link under the style links, it will take you to the Wersi site where snippets of the disc can be heard) and is in the final production stages.
You should also find that from the middle of this year, most Wersi Artists will be using OAS 7 and it will be featured on their CDs. (OAS 7 was a really big upgrade and so it has taken time for the Artists to get in to the Groove so to speak)
I also believe that things are afoot in the UK to bring the sounds and demos of OAS 7 and OAA into the virtual world. (I will post when I have more details)
Regards

Bill

Strange.... Here I've been, getting payed for my performances all these years, and I never knew I wasn't a professional keyboard player. I must have some VERY charitable neighbors!

That isn't to say that every single one of the styles I use hasn't been 'tweaked'. But I happily confess that NOT ONE SINGLE style I use was completely created by me. And, despite your insulting reference, Genysis, I can confidently state that 99% of ALL the arranger players here that make a living do not make their own styles. I'm sure labeling yourself as a 'professional' just because you make SOME of your own styles makes you feel better about yourself, but in the real world (you know, the one where you could make a living on a Radio Shack arranger!), NONE of us feel any less professional because we use the amazingly good styles available in the TOTL arrangers.

The style itself is only the beginning of a professional show, but I for one would rather be backed by great styles that I didn't create than half-assed ones I did... And you know what....? You are right! My audience DOESN'T care.

The purpose of an arranger is to fill in for the lack of a complete band. And just like that 'real' band, you don't expect to have to play (or teach) every last note to each and every sideman you have (not if you are paying them!). As long as they play inspiringly, you don't care WHAT they play (as long as it fits). But when they play badly, out of tune, lackluster, boring...... They got to go!

So who would you rather hire, Genesys...?

Once again, loads of noise from people that don't own one, but not one single OWNER chiming in and going 'yes, this is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and here are some examples....' Seems like, as long as the 'potential' isn't spoiled by actual 'reality', this is a great arranger!