Hello

I have the Yamaha PSR2000. I have downloaded styles from all the main sites. The problem is when I find something I like, half the time there is discord. Very common is to play a 7th chord and one or more of the accompaniement patterns clash. If I play G7, the note I hear is a C#. I just tried a new one tonight where I play Dm7 and the most predominant note is Bb!!!!!

What's going on here? Is this the state of the art? I am most interested in getting additional good swing and jazz styles. The initial excitement of downloading free styles is really about gone for me. Brian Miles has no plans to convert the PA80 styles which are the ones I would really love to have. I contacted EMC to see how the program was going for a PA80 to PSR2000 conversion and asked him if this problem is the state of the art or what. I don't think it's my keyboard.

Any ideas or input welcome.

Scott Langholff

I agree with your findings regarding style conversions. The Technics Styles convert well to my Roland, but poorly to my Yamaha. All style conversions are a compromise and all require tweaking in some form if they are to be useful at all.
I have now stopped downloading converted styles for my 9000PRO. It is more successful to change the supplied styles plus all the PSR2000 & CVP Styles work very well in the 9000 most of the time.

Graham UK

I have not done any style creating or altering as of yet on the 2000. I have done it on my KN1000.

I wonder if I take a bad download and re-do the offending accompaniment part(s) if this would work, or if the same problem would arise in the re-make.

I usually just like to play and not be button tech, but I know what I like and I'm willing to do something to accomplish it.

the problem is with the latest yamaha format. I did the entire VA7 and X1 libraries with no problems, Korg, Gem and Wersi too. The psr2000 and cvp209 libraries came out with random bum notes. The only way to fix it is to go through each accompaniment and edit the base pattern.

There is another way.. simper and easier. Download Michael P Bedesem's "stylemaker " program. It has a function in it that can automatically changes all notes of a midi file or existing style to the correct notes ( Cmaj7) for a style.

You can find his program at the SVP world site ( it's freeware ). Go to http://www.svpworld.com

AJ

that does not help converting from yamaha to other formats...

technicsplayer. Re-PSR2000 & CVP Styles.You are correct, it is usually the bass part that produces a bad sound when playing a 7th chord. In fact I have looked into this and the bass voice changes to a brass voice on a 7th chord. I have re-voiced these with success. The other method is to delete the System Excusive messages using Cakewalk.

Graham UK

I found otherwise, the bass is OK generally, the problem is that C plays as E minor, and if you play C minor you get Eb major. Playing minor gets you the relative major i.e E minor gets G major. Therefore the C maj 7 accomp is not being converted to the required C major properly.

The bass problem is different; many patterns have a root and fifth, with the fifth a fourth below the root. The pitch point of these come out as E, which is correct if you don't play below C, since E is the normal lowest note of a bass guitar or double bass. But if you play E you have a B playing, a fourth below the lowest bass note and it starts to rumble too much. The pitch point is better moved to A to avoid this problem.

Right.. But it certainly DOES help when conveting ANY style to Yamaha format, including the 2000 ( wasn't that the original question ? ). I had both boards at the time and I successfully converted PA80 styles to PSr2000 format. I Used the PA80 style conversion program to convert to mid format and then Michael's program along with my software sequencer ( XG works at the time I was doing it ) and it worked like a charm every time. Without converting through Michalels' program the Korg style would not play properly on the 2000. Notes in the wrong keys galore depending on the Chords used ( 7th chords maj and min were particularly ofensive )

Sure, I could have done it through a sequencer manually and placed the notes in the proper keys.. but when you start talking about converting 20 , 30 styles ( or more ), that's a heck of a lot of extra work.

As far as the PA80 styles being posted, I converted a few myself and posted them at the PSR style site. I had conversation with a Korg rep who voiced his objection to it.

I cannot say whether or not the situation would have gone the same route as it did for Bob Gelman's site when Yamaha objected to the posting of their current styles, and eventually lawyers became involved on Yamaha's behalf, but I have no desire to go "there" and test the waters, so I am no longer willing to post PA80 conversions publicly.




[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 08-15-2002).]

I never said it wouldn't help converting to yamaha, I talked of converting from yamaha. There appears to be a difference between 2000 and cvp209 (maybe the session or otp styles?) and previous yamaha format. I converted the entire 9000 and 9000pro archives with little problem, also previous yamaha 8000, 7000 etc etc. If this program can be used to remove C maj 7 and leave C major (the reverse of what you describe) it could be useful converting from yamaha too.

It won't do that Tech. Unfortunately it's a conversion to yamaha format only ( and a great timesaver )

What you describe it the exact problem with playing Yamaha styles converted to PA80 format. The many Yamaha conversions for the the PA80 that were converted using an "auto" conversion program like EMC often suffer from the same malady because the PA80 wants styles made in C maj, not C maj 7 as Yamaha styles are made )

Fortunately, having XG works gives me a very simple work around for that. XG works plays any yamaha SFF style internally with all the chord transpositions available on Yamaha arrangers.. so I simply made a small midifile using a C maj chord for each style variation, then inserted it into the PA80 midi to style conversion tool. That's the easy ( and relatively quick ) part. The less easy part is using the Yamaha style data itself and then reassigning patches, banks, effects , pans.. etc etc.



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 08-16-2002).]

well, it sounds like this method would do for technics format too, for that uses C major (and you can use all the notes in the scale on every part, but obviously the B cannot be used as part of a chord, otherwise the calculation is upset with the result we see). But I got the impression the problem was somewhat random. I did note change in a pc sequencer, but the KN menu also has a note change editing option. Depends whether you have more notes or more control data to re-assign afterwards I suppose. Maybe the next version of EMC will incorporate an automatic solution...

Tech

I agree... it would be great if a program like EMC addressed this. I could save quite a few steps myself when making a new korg style ( especially from Yamaha style data ). I'd gladly spend the bucks on EMC if it could do the conversions properly for me.


As far as random, I can only speak for the PA80. The Yamaha styles convert perfectly and all chords sound correct once I change ( or let XG works change ) the note data from C maj7 to C maj.


There are more steps ( and a bit more time involved )the way I do it with the programs I have, but it still pays for me to take the raw midi data ( of any chord origin ), convert it automatically in Michael's software ( it becomes a typical Yamaha Cmaj 7th based SFF ), and then if it's going back to the PA80, make c maj chords with the new yamaha SFF style inside of XG works, and finsih up the conversion in the PA80 style software. The PA80 itself allows for me to finish up the patch / bank changes and the rest of the midi CC work with relative ease ( for a KB sequencer )

Reading it from text here, it may sound like a lot of steps, ( it is ) but having done it both ways ( manually changing notes or letting the programs do it for me ), I can assure you that even with the added steps, it's easier than manually converting all the notes of a midifile. I am exploring other possiblities including looking to see if there are existing .cal scripts for Sonar ( or the possibiltiy of me making a .cal script ) that could mimic the note conversion in a way that Michael's program is able to do.

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 08-16-2002).]

the EMC has a module for getting technics styles out of midi files which works quite well, and there is also a disk that does the same job that you load into the keyboard memory, so you don't need a pc. Next time I might try calling the *.sty a *.mid and seeing if this software works any better on these new styles, since the software calculates the change to C major for you.

I have previously owned Korg i3 & i30. Both of these require a Style in Cmaj7 NOT C. The Cmaj7 is required to trigger the accompaniment between C and adding the B in Cmaj7. Other wise you hear no difference when playing a 7th. Even the Korg Instruction book informs you of the Cmaj7 being required to make up a Korg Style.

If all manufactures followed the Yamaha method of producing Style Files as a Midi File we would not need a conversion program at all.

Graham UK

That is true of the I 30 and I 3, but it is not true of the PA80. The notes are based on the C major scale, not Cmaj7. When you go to edit an internal style from the PA80, the key / chord icon will ask for notes in C maj, not Cmaj7.

The exception to this is when you load an I series style. The PA80 has an option that allows it to recognize and transpose the I series styles ( it is an option in the style record mode on the PA80 ).

Your post does however make me wonder if I could bring the note data from a Yamaha style into the PA80 without going through the step of converting it into a C maj based midifile in XG. XG works will also open and play .sty files. I can easily save them as type 0 midifiles. If the "I" series option on the PA80 allows me to recognize C maj7th based styles, I could possibly save a step in the conversion process.


AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 08-20-2002).]