I have my preferences set to see the postings for the last two days. Right now less than half of the posts have 15 or more replies. And only two of them are highlighted as me having read them. Is that because there's nothing interesting to ask or mention? Many of the names I signed on with two years ago are hardly heard from. Are the new members just not as exciting, or what?

cass, ... I hope you're not finding us boring ... ?
a little over a week ago I posted a song and got 7 comments ... I don't know if people were being kind by NOT commenting or what, but the 7 day time limit at 'you send it.com' ran out before the D/L limit did ... I even posted the question "Where is everybody?" a day or so later (that got 14 responses) ...

I think the population here has been changing for some time, and especially so after some of the heated exchanges and possible 'fraudulent' postings ...

Now I think it will take a new board to get people going again ...

t.


[This message has been edited by tony mads usa (edited 10-17-2006).]

[This message has been edited by tony mads usa (edited 10-17-2006).]

I don't have a NEW board, but I've been busy buying up a Korg X5, X5DR and now an X5D.

Why, you ask. I started out wanting the X5D and mistakenly bought the X5. Then I thought I'd sell the X5 and bought the X5DR to use with a midi keyboard or midi up to another board - I'm really not into midi cinnections that much, so there goes that idea.

Now I've bought the elusive X5D (at $1.50 more than I paid for the X5)and I don't have a manual.

I've got the actual X5 manual and a PDF version for the X5DR. The keyboard and module are up for sale. I need the X5 manual now. Can anyone help?

I know about Mark Glinsky

When there are few new products coming to market, this forum slows down. The excitement of new releases drives a lot of conversation. During the past year, fewer new products have shown up. It's even slow in my store. Most of my arranger customers want to buy the latest and greatest........and there really has not been much to write about. Around 2000, Ketron, Generalmusic, Korg, Roland and Yamaha all had many products we were all interested in talking about. But think about it.......not much new to discuss. I also think that some of the familiar names have had their issues with some of the conversation here this past year and just decided to bow out of frequent conversations though I would suspect are still checking in from time to time.
Just wait till the PA800 from Korg, the Ketron SD5 and perhaps something new from Yamaha at the NAMM show next January spurs new interest among us. Then we will see a lot of conversation around here again.
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566 www.kayesmusicscene.com

Cassp,

We are all too busy and too excited about the Tigers being in the World Series to post about keyboards right now. You know what I mean?

Tom

Hi,

The fact that people do not respond to your music does not necessarily mean they don't like it.

I remember the first time I posted something on the zone. I got tens of positive comments. My further works didn't get many comments but the number of downloads showed the audience was still interested in what I upload. My latest upload ('When The Sun Has Fallen Asleep') was my most downloaded song, though it got the fewest comments.

Bear in mind that people who download songs are not necessarily registered Synthzone users who are able to comment here.

Regards,
George

[This message has been edited by George V (edited 10-17-2006).]

Tom,
That is interesting... None of the musicians that I know here in the Netherlands are that much interested in sports that it influences their life
In other words most musicians are less interested in sports then the avarage John Doe.

Is that different in USA?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tom Cavanaugh:

We are all too busy and too excited about the Tigers being in the World Series to post about keyboards right now. You know what I mean?

Figures: As soon as I leave MI, the Tigers become good Enjoy

zuki

I have noticed that whilst there appears to have been a decline in postings on this forum recently, there seems to have been a corresponding increase in activity on the Yamaha Club forum over the same period.
Could that be anything to do with the fact that users seem to be a bit less abrasive over there?

By the way, having seen in many natural history programmes on television that tigers are becoming extinct, I am surprised to hear that you still, it would seem, have them running around in the States. Presumably this is why you all need to keep firearms at home. In the UK we have nothing more dangerous than feral politicians and our cross and longbows are adequate to deal with them.

Trevor

Personally speaking, I was chased away by all the boneheads,negative attitudes,attacks, and comments from many of the members. The tone of the board changed negatively. I don't need more negativity in my life, especially where music is concerned. I used to come here for the friendships and camaraderie. That doesn't seem to be here much anymore; unless you have similar equipment to other people.

I choose not to participate much anymore and I think many other people feel the same way.

Just my two cents.

Freddy,

Who is ter may?

My comment was said tongue in cheek because Cassp is from Detroit. I'm sure you are as interested in American baseball the same way I'm interested in European soccer.

Tom

Oh yes, we have Tigers AND Lions and even some Red Wings. Then we get into Pistons and we are all Shock-ed too. Long bows? Haven't you ever heard about De-troit; we'll get our neighboring Wolverines and Spartans out after you

Seriously, Detroit is a great place for sports and music. The ol' town ain't what it used to be, but the surrounding area and its people are very special.

[This message has been edited by cassp (edited 10-17-2006).]

Strangely enough, this quite uninteresting topic has got 12 replies up to now :P

Well this uninteresting post has now got my attention.

Can somebody please explain what a "World series" is - It seems to me that very few countries in the World play the Tigers game (Sorry but I'm not sure if it's american football, baseball or basketball)

KF

[This message has been edited by KFingers (edited 10-19-2006).]

In the UK on our Free View Channels they have added two new one's Five US & Five Live which showed the Chicago Bears & Arizona Eagles.
Just wish we could understand the playing rules...because looks very exciting.

For those who are not familiar with US sports - football is NOT soccer! American and Canadian football is a completely different game; the best way I can describe it is to say it is somewhat like rugby but with separate 'plays'. It's very physical and very popular in the States, maybe #1 of all sports.

Baseball is the 'National Sport' or so they say. Related to cricket, it is a game played on a large field. Batters hit the ball and run to bases. If/when a runner gets all the way to home base (plate) it is a run (score). There are two major professional leagues (MLB) and when the season ends the winners of the two leauges playoff in what we call The World Series. Baseball is big in other nations and is an Olympic sport. I guess we claim the title of World Series because we did it first. Go figure. ???

In the USA it's baseball, hot dogs and apple pie, but football is #1.

And that makes 15 posts and a flaming file folder. Whew!

[This message has been edited by cassp (edited 10-19-2006).]

The History
http://www.roundersonline.net/history.htm

Bill

Graham ... that would have been the Arizona CARDINALS ... .... the Eagles are in Philadelphia ...
t.

So is it baseball or football you are interested in? For baseball, check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_baseball_in_the_United_States

For football, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football

The reason things are getting boring 'round here is, as George Kaye said, not much new equipment to talk about.......

BUT......... that doesn't say a lot for our members, does it? It doesn't take much expertise to argue 'my arranger is the best', just quote the specs and feature list.

The trouble is, it's easy to argue specs, it takes a LOT more thought and time to talk about musicianship, entertainment techniques, performance tips and tricks, repertoire and business practices. Where's the fun in that?

But don't let this stop anyone from crowing how good THEIR arranger is. After all, it's not how good YOU are, it's who's got the best arranger.............. (isn't it?)

Diki - it's never been that for me. Certainly we all have our preferences and we would like to have the best keyboard we can afford. When I joined the SZ a few years ago there definitely were members who had strong opinions about their and others' keyboards. That is not a reason for PETTY arguments and snide remarks.

Some members seem to come with an attitude or a chip on their shoulder. That doesn't make it fun for anyone. But the past year or two has seen an increase of 'touchy' members and posters.

I liked when we could make good, clean fun of each other and our keyboards, but now everyone has to be politically correct all the time. That's why I feel the SZ doesn't have good posts anymore - we're afraid to speak out.

But that's the whole point........ You are still only making comments about each other's keyboards, in fun or not.

There is SO much more to arranger usage than simply which one you use. But little of the rest gets discussed, and so many opportunities to learn and better oneself gets drowned out in the one-upmanship of ownership. Boring.........

I understand, but so many of these questions have been asked and answered before. My advice to new (and old) membersis: check the archives. Rephrase your questions so people will want to answer them. Ask something challenging. Show us what you know. As far as posting music, that's not my bag. I like conversation, whether it be technical or for fun. I agree that we've had too many "mine is the best" posts around here, but let's stop the whining too.

See, I just proved that a non-arranger post can generate some decent interest.

While we're waiting for a new arrranger or synth to come to market there's lots that we can do to keep the SZ up and interesting. Check out the 'health issue' post. That's a topic close to many of us here, and I'm only 56. The arranger forum is for PEOPLE who have a connection to arrangers. Some don't even own one, but they add to the forum with other expertise or information. I llove to read about gigs and interesting happenings. I don't have to know anything about or even like or hate your arranger. That's what I miss.

I have to be realistic about ALL digital keyboards. They are ALL inferior to the acoustic/analog keyboards that they emulate. This is simply a FACT not just an opinion. Emulation actually means NOT THE REAL THING. It's all about how great musicians can make keyboards ( no matter what brand ) sound musical and can convince the listener that they are listening to real instruments. Musicianship is key now and will always be. The choice of keyboard brand really doesn't matter at all. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. It is completely up to the musician to make the sounds work in a musical performance.

1 2 3 for Nigel, his point of view is so refreshing. Any keyboard will do – How good am I? Wow, that’s so real. We get better and the keyboard sounds better, sounds right.

Judging keyboards --- I have my Tyros 2 amount four months now, I am in a learning mode, the keyboard can do so much.

My question – How can anyone judge a keyboard without spending a lot of time with it? I would love to master all the top brand keyboards, there is so much offered by each one. Fun, fun enjoyment.

John C.

I find trying new keyboards a lot like tasting a new wine...... some of them come on strong the minute you pop them in your mouth, some of them develop more slowly, and require more time to be appreciated.

I've seen many posts about out of the box impressions, and then I've read several posts about arrangers that grew on the poster more slowly. To be honest, I tend to prefer the ones that take a bit more time to appreciate, rather than overwhelm on the first sip.

Sometimes, having a keyboard that demands a fair bit of setup time and adjustment helps you to learn and improve your programming skills more than those that pop right out of the box and you just sit there and play (nice though that is, it makes having an individual sound so much harder!) and never spend much time with the innards......

Every time I change keyboards, I'm looking for something that DOESN'T sound too much like the previous one, If I wanted to sound as good as my last one, I'd still be playing it! My pet peeve is that even the manufacturers have a blinkered idea of how to use an arranger..... they don't HAVE to be played in simple LH - chords, RH - melody mode, but often simple mistakes in button placement make two-handed control a lot harder.

Many members here bemoan how small the arranger market (and consequent development and innovation are, also), but the manufacturers themselves do a lot to deliberately hobble their performance by taking too narrow a view of their potential usage. The gap between workstation and arranger has never been so small, sonically, and Yamaha's T2 even has voices and technology above and beyond their top-of-the-line MotifES (as they should, given the price!), but control layout still makes them all difficult to do much with your right hand. Some of us use BOTH........!

If only we spent more time on this forum saying what we would like to see improved/changed/undone rather than constant self-congratulation, perhaps the manufacturers would spend more time and R&D budget on making them more useful and well rounded. Right now, they must think they are close to perfect, for all the innovation they fail to come up with each product cycle.

Only the soft-arrangers are showing any real changes in control flexibility and expanded feature sets, but unfortunately the hardware and sound development lags a bit. However, soon (I think within 2-3 years) this will change, and the big boys are going to have to play catchup, not something the market is kind to.....

Anyway, thanks for a post that considers more than just what arranger you own......

Diki -
You raise some good points. I would love to see and participate in discussions regarding arranger design, layout, features. Mostly I have felt that those items turn into a bitch session about what we have and don't like - which is what you complain about alot. If we could have an intelligent dialog on these issues and have a feeling we were being heard and listened to then I would encourage that discussion 100%

Good post!

How is this Diki..


I would like an Arranger Keyboard with features and quality of the following:

I want a 76 key arranger with the feel of a Roland "G".

I want the features of Ketron MidJay, MP3, wav,and sequencer capabilities at the same time with separate volume sliders.

I want the VK organ module from Roland.

I want the best of the Yamaha Tyros2 sounds

I want the Yamaha sounds playable.

I want the editing and sequencing power of Roland and Genesys[GEM}.

I want the Roland harmonizer.

I want the old features found on the Roland G1000.

I want the sound system of the Technics KN7000.

I want the weight of the Casio WK series.

I want the quality of Roland "G"s.

I want the SMF specs and results of Roland GS instruments.

I want Casio pricing.

I want AJ [Ketron] and Dave [GEM] support.

I want the performance[saving ] concept of Roland.

I want a real sampler , found on the Roland Fantom.

I want the Piano sounds from Roland RD 700sx.

I want the concept of Domenik's Media Station{VST}.

I want the separate outs from the "G".

I want the effects of Roland and Yamaha..

I want multiple mic input on board..like???.

I want a vast style library and EMC software built in..

That is enough for starters.

Sorry I couldn't think of any features from the Korg, other than an MP3 player, but that is covered by Ketron..

Oh Yeah...I want it now!!!!!

First, what is the occasion, and how is the clientele dressed ? ... I don't necessarily want to be wearing a tux at a pool party unless everyone else is 'black tie' ...
Generally its:
Weddings - rare nowadays except for cocktail hours/parties - tux
Formal Functions - tux
Country Clubs - depending on the event - tux or shirt and tie (tonight is a black suit, nice shirt and tie)
Piano Lounge - again, depending on venue & clientele - blazer, shirt, tie, or open shirt -
Outdoor - Dockers (should I get a sponsor fee for that?!? ) or Bermuda style shorts ... sport shirt
t.

Tony I think you are lost..Dress code is another post.

Tony, wrong thread, I think (talk about being overdressed for the wrong occasion!)...

Fran........ Yes, this is what I'm talking about! It's not about how good my keyboard is, it's about how much better it could be.

To be honest, I would prefer several features to be taken OFF of arrangers, as well as some additions. Why clutter an already complex keyboard with functions performed better on computers?

Who sequences (records) on the gig? Few, if any. Make the sequencers simple playback devices, but with awesome live locate features and highly advanced playlist control. I'd rather use a computer ANY DAY to sequence with.

Who uses their arranger's HD recording on the gig? Few, if any. It's much easier to use a recording device off the mixer if you HAVE to record the gig, and once again, I'd MUCH rather record to a computer at home.

Who uses their sampler a LOT on the gig? Few, I imagine. Until USB 2 or faster is used to load them, 512MB memory isn't much use if it takes an hour to load.....! Plus, the T2's sampler is very poor at importing sample libraries already developed, and Yammie have come out with very little for it..... Why, oh why are modern keyboards (not just arrangers) over 100X slower than computers in loading sample RAM? Somebody explain this one to me....

Beware the Roland VK section in their arrangers...... the reverb send is pre-Leslie and the overdrive is post-mixer. They have to fix this. It's still good, but could be MUCH better.......

I've got a thread over at the Danish G70 site about improvements to the NEXT G-series, pop over and see if you agree..... http://www.selskabsmusikeren.dk/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=60&topic=1654.0

FRAN....I think you are hitting hard...you
need to start of with light jabs, not uppercuts...

Tony That was too KOOL for words.....
TR

"I want multiple mic input on board..like???."

Ketron SD1.

DonM

Hi Dikki
The vast majority of arrangers are sold to home uses, which is why a lot of the features you say should be removed, are fitted. (Home uses utilize them)
The reason hardware arrangers have slow ram and USB is because it takes typically 2 years to get from prototype to production, so the technology used is usually about 2 years old when the product is released, as an example when the prototype Tyros 2 was being tested, the mainstream computers were P3 with PC133 memory and USB 1.1, and this is why Tyros 2 uses PC133 Ram and only has USB 1.1.
All Wersi instruments up to 2003 used P3, PC133 and USB 1.1, however due to the fact that inside they are just normal computers, it was easy for Wersi (And existing owners) to fit P4 boards with DDR memory and USB 2. (This is what is meant when Wersi say there instruments are totally updatable)
Enjoy whatever you play

Bill

Abacus..... I would be prepared to bet that anyone that can afford an arranger with HD recording on board already has a computer and basic (but still superior to on-arranger) recording software. And I also bet that again, other than low-end arrangers, most people that sequence prefer to use the computer. The only reason not to is that some manufacturers make it difficult to use a computer with your arranger. Otherwise, it's no contest....

Weighing an arranger down with unnecessary features only serves to distract and dilute the R&D efforts from making a better arranger into making a hybrid product that does none well.

Maybe I'd like to see the sampler and HD recording when those features can be as powerful as the alternatives, but for now, I'd MUCH prefer to see the money spent on improving the arranger section..... More fills, more variations, better ways to control them, better sounds, better styles and easier style creation, better OTS implementation, better ergonomics......

Until the arranger is perfect, why waste budget on frills?


BTW, my ten year old Kurzweil loads 2X faster than a contemporary T2..... not too much progress there, and even USB1 is capable of FAR greater bandwidth than modern samplers use. It's not the interface, it's the design of the data pipe to the RAM, IMHO.

Hi Dikki
All valid points, and yes most will have a computer, however most of them keep them separate, (EG. They show off there keyboard but hide their computer) as to sequencers on computers, you will find most arranger uses aren’t interested, likewise hard disc recording, but what they do like is to be able to press a button on there keyboard, and start recording, and with another button press, play it back. (They are mainly not interested into how much better it would be to use the computer)
Remember USB 1.1 is not much quicker then typical modern broadband connections, and compared to USB 2 is excruciatingly slow.
The memory used in your Kurzweil is not that large as it is used solely for producing a few sounds, (Although even with today’s large sample VSTs I still think Kurzweil produce the best Piano and String sounds) and this is why it loads fast.
As to features, some like it nice and simple whereas others want all the bells and whistles, and so manufactures have to try and satisfy all camps. (Jack of all trades)
BTW Are you on Skype
Enjoy whatever you play

Bill

I see things differently. I know a lot of keyboard players who would never mix their computers with their boards. Some see the onboard sequencing gear as their only means to saving or playing work. I agree that sequencing on the computer with a sequencing program is usually easier and better, that's not what the market bears out. Today's arranger keyboards are the way they are because they have slowly evolved from the old organ+rhythm box technology of 30 years ago.

I think what we all want is a DIFFERENT type of arranger - not an at-home entertainment system. So why don't we design one. We can input our ideas and maybe someone (or more) in the group can give us a visual.

I want Roland's VK8 and Vari-Os technology and Kurzweil sound banks.
I want the ability to quickly and easily adjust volume/on/off of all arranger functions.
I want a loop sequencer.
I want a sequencer where I can see and adjust what channels are active, what instrument is playing and the volume for each.
I want something with 76 keys, but I'll settle for 61.
Speakers are nice, but optional for me.
Let's keep weight under 40lbs.

That's all for now.

Hey Diki - look what this post has turned into. WoW!

Abacus.... sorry, no Skype, yet (I prefer the written word).

It's not about how much or little sample RAM you have, it's about how fast it loads. My venerable Kurzweil loads it's RAM at about 1MB/sec, 2 to 4 times faster than a T2. Especially for live use (arranger's reason d'etre) the speed with which you can load a sample set in response to a request (rather than pre-loading before the gig) is of crucial importance....

The piano and string sounds Kurzweils are famous for are ROM sounds, so no loading time at all, but if you need an Irish bagpipe for a song (if your arranger doesn't have a good one) or a hip-hop drumkit and some slamming beats, the speed with which they load is critical, no matter if they are 4MB or 40MB.

I think someone informed me that if you maxed out the T2's RAM, it would take over an hour to load..... USB1 is WAY faster than that! I think I read that USB 1.1 maxes out at 1.5MB/sec, so it should be faster than my K2500, not 2 to 4X slower....... 512MB should load up in 6 minutes, NOT 30-40 min. Why is it so slow?

So...... smaller soundsets are necessary, but unfortunately newer soundsets are GBs in size because of computer speeds and streaming technology, but Yamaha provide no way to import Akai format samples, which, because Akai's had smaller RAM (usually 32MB max) are the perfect size to load into a live keyboard.

So you are kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place if you actually want to USE the provided sampler in a live situation, hence my call for better load time implementation.

Well cassp....... yes, probably the least boring thread for a while!

You seem to be describing your perfect arranger, and many of it's ideas are in the G70......

Varios seems to have been abandoned by Roland and was mono only, and still suffers from exactly the same RAM load-time problems that samplers have..... a good idea before it's time.

By 'loop sequencer' do you mean the old Roland Chord Sequencer? If so, welcome aboard, brother! The best idea they ever dropped.....

As for your requests for computer-like sequence editing facilities, well....... why not use a computer? Why try to do the same thing on a 4 inch square display when you could see everything on a nice widescreen 24 inch flatscreen?OK, some people prefer to do their sequencing on-board rather than use a computer, but some people still write letters to each other in paper and ink and POST them to each other rather than use e-mail. Only those who have never used a computer sequencer prefer the on-board one.....

The G70 comes in a smidgen above 40lbs, but is manageable (I'll take durability over feather-weight any day)

It has live sliders for everything, keyboard, sequence and style parts

See above for how I feel about the VK organ (but it's still great!)

And having both a K2500 and a G70, I can assure you that the G70 more than stands up to the K's ROM sounds, betters most of them and is infinitely easier to use, live, especially if you haven't got a ton of time to set up EVERYTHING in advance. If I've got no prep time, I grab the G70 first for everything.....!

Give it a whirl, and consider an Akai Z8 or '4 for the sampling chores.

Maybe I should clarify some of my ideas.
Yes, I do mean something like the old chord sequencer.
No, I don't mean a recording sequencer, but more likely a sequence player; for midi files and such.
I realize the G70 has most of what I like and want - I have a VR-760, but I forgot to mention this thing should be under $2500.
Forget the VariOs, I don't use that stuff anyway. I've got a Digitech sitting downstairs collecting dust.
And by the way, maybe we should consider more than one display screen.

I am interested in what the manufacture is offering the keyboard player. Not that a list of personal wishes is a bad thing, but I am interested in the features in the different keyboards, the positives, the facts.

I would like to hear from the people who have taken their keyboards to a deeper level, and how the manufacturer designed the keyboard to be used.

No comparison and no negatives, just facts about the keyboards, leaving judgments to the individual. Where else can we get this information but on this forum -- from people we know.

Personal negative opinions about a feature on the keyboard are fine, they are welcome, it’s what we are looking for. Comparisons with other keyboards seems to end in the wrong place.

Only my opinion, John C.