I love my PSR3000, and I also love my PA1XPRO, and this post is not intended to make any disparaging remarks about any manufacturer.

As great as both boards are, I continually wonder why a manufacturer as great as Yamaha, while creating very robust styles, makes them sound so compressed and over-produced, sacrificing a nice live sound.

And I wonder why a manufacturer as great as Korg, choosses to have many of the Korg styles just sound a little enemic, and have so few of the nice rich Yamaha type EP voices, and why their OS is just so darn clumsy and non-user friendly.

I am looking forward to the T2 replacement, and will likely buy it as soon as it comes out, but I'm wondering, Will Yamaha ever redo their drums to give them a nice LIVE, crisp, seperate and punchy sound, and will Yamaha ever change their styles to make them sound less 'canned' and compressed, less "wall of sound" and more live and dynamic with better instrument seperation.

Is it just me who feels this way about Yamaha and Korg boards?

I love Yamaha boards and their voices, and love their styles and love the OS. I just wish it all sounded more LIVE!!!!!! Why doesn't Yamaha do it? It's not like they can't, so it must be a deliberate corporate decision NOT to make the instrument sound more live, but rather to make this very polished, compressed wall-of-sound.

I just dont get it??? Would love to hear you long-time players opinions.

Thanks, Russ

Who knows ? I always have thought they (Yamaha drum sounds) are just way overdone. Probably some programing engineers idea of what drums sound like.

Also to my knowledge, Yamaha is the only company that sets up drums in such a way that you can't change the volume of the various instruments in a kit. Only thru velocity and channel volume.

Korg arrangers on the other hand,imho, has fantastic sounding drums. They remind me of the way my brother's drums sounded when we played together. I have several fine ample libraies here to use including BFD, DFH and Session drummer but I think only BFD beats the Korg arrangers drums. And that's only because you can vary the close mic and room mics.

RE Korg styles ? They sound great to me. More like 3 or four guys jamming than the highly polished Yamaha styles. I suppose that's why they make different flavors of ice cream, so everyone can get what they want.

Korg os ? Heck I've had a pa80, never moved, sitting in the rack for nearly 5 years and I can barely remember how to select a style. Unuserfrendly would be a real understatement.

Danny


[This message has been edited by pianodano (edited 09-27-2007).]

The drum kits on the Motif XS are outstanding and by far the best drums i have heard on any keybaord so far.

all that yamaha has to do is re sample these to their next arranger and they will have something that will be best of the best.

The reason Yamaha's sounds seem compressed and over produced is because they are. Yamaha wants to yield as many sounds as possible with as little ROM as possible. In order to achieve this they use a compression/companding technique. The end result are sounds that are thin, weak, and many are in fact mono that are touted as being stereo. In fact Yamaha has many sounds that say stereo but are in fact two mono voices stacked and panned left and right to give a stereo effect. This doesn't sound anything like true stereo and the sound suffers when being summed to mono.

In order for companies to achieve a large amount of sounds within a small amount of ROM (a few hundred MB or less), that requires samples that are sampled at lower bit rates, companded, and often with very few multi-samples. Yamaha tends to use most of their ROM for the SA and Live voices, then the other sounds seriously suffer because of this. It's no surprise the SA and Live voices are the better of the bunch, they utilize most of the ROM.

Unlike Yamaha, Korg, Roland, Ketron, and others, companies like Wersi use very high amounts of ROM for their factory sounds. In fact Wersi uses nearly 1 GB of ROM for their OAS 7 instruments. The end result of this are sounds that sound so real, aren't compressed, and have a live feel to them, just like the real instrument would be. Wersi's factory sounds are so good that you'd be hard pressed to find many sounds that don't sound like the real instrument. I don't know of any other arranger or workstation with a set of factory sounds that even comes close to compare to the Wersi. Of course hearing an online demo won't show this, you really need to hear the instrument in person to know. Unfortunately Wersi's price point and small distribution limit those who would purchase it to a very small niche.

I await the day that Yamaha, Roland, or Korg comes up with an arranger that uses large amounts of ROM and can compete with the likes of the Wersi but unfortunately that doesn't appear to be in the near future. Korg could do it if they put arranger features of the PA2X into the Oasys and fixed the OS of the Oasys. The Oasys has some fantastic sounds but the GUI is so poorly laid out and the sequencer is an absolute joke. Wersi is already working on the "Plus" line of their OAS instruments which adds a 10.4 TFT touch screen, more fills/intros, and even more sounds. The advantage of Wersi being the first to utilize an instrument that supports not only large amount of factory ROM, but VST's, is that they've had years to get things right. It's hard to keep up with the Jones' when they are ten years ahead of everyone else.

If you think the likes of a Tyros, PSR, G Series, PA, or Ketron can hold up to the likes of an instrument like Wersi and Lionstracs that can play back very large sound files, give a listen to Giga, Halion, or Kontakt's available sound libraries and see how your instrument compares. I know of no arranger factory sound that can even come close.

Do you know this to be a fact?



Yep, I'm first to acknowledge the horrible summed to mono result. If the reason truly is in fact that it's because these sounds weren't truly stereo to begin with, I'm now wondering if it might be possible to take a true 'stereo sampled' piano and import it into the Tyros2 keyboard as a Yamaha TVN WAV file and achieve more satisfactory results when mixed to mono on output? That said, Orgel-Studio now offers yet another new (Pack #5) TVN WAV sample collection for Tyros2:

TVN Wave sample sounds

Click on 'Pack 5' to see and hear audio clip demos of the most recently released collection.

Scott

Many of the Yam Live voices are comprised of apparently similar samples arranged in pairs- one panned hard left the other hard right. I can't prove they're the same or mono but I wouldn't be surprised if they were as IMO the stereo presence doesn't really seem to be there much- maybe I'm just becoming acclimatised-lol!

Hi Scott - it's possible to get a much better stereo effect using the PC editing facility available with Ty2. Here's a .tvn hot off the press using the Ty2 LiveGrand where hi notes come from right & lo notes come from left. Hopefully it's a general improvement too. It's also possible to adjust brightness/mellow to taste using the mod wheel so it should have wider appeal than the usual "fixed" piano - that is assuming it has any appeal whatsoever- lol!
Any Ty2 users welcome to try.

http://tinyurl.com/34flrr

John

Take the time to tune the keyboard, the registrations and your PA system and you'll find those drums are great. You just need to get into the inner workings of the systems. I personally, love the way the drums sound, and as for mono VS stereo--Nah! I won't go there.

Got to get to work. Music begins at 11:00 a.m. today.

Cheers,

Gary

DITTO!

Sorry but all the tweaking in the world will never turn a good sample (PSR) into a great sample (MOTIF).

Here's one suggested way of "tuning" them:

http://www.yamahapkowner.com/forum/index.php?topic=7403.0


John

And a Motif is an arranger? NOT!

Ian

What prevents Yamaha or any of the other keyboard manufacturers from putting quality drum sounds in their Arrangers? Granted, a Motif is a Workstation and it is considered a professional keyboard instrument used for professional purposes but so is the Tyros/2 according to Yamaha. In fact a Tyros/2 costs in the same neighborhood as an 88 note Motif ES/XS. Since they are both considered professional keyboard products why has Yamaha relegated the best Drum sounds to the Motifs? I think the main reason is because Yamaha seems to have grown accustomed to the way they have produced the Drums on the PSR line of keyboards instead of updating the Drum sounds to be similar to those that are on the Motifs. The Drums improved somewhat on the Tyros over the PSR line and the Tyros2 is even better yet but they are still no where near the quality of, for instance, the Motif ES or Motif XS. We are paying the same price for their top of the line Arrangers as we would for their top of the line Workstations and in my opinion Yamaha should give their TOTL Arrangers the Motif quality Drums also. I hope Yamaha reconsiders (the old way of doing things) and gives the T2 successor some outstanding Drums.

PS: The Company that succeeds in doing that first - whether Yamaha, Korg, Roland, or whoever, stands the best chance in my opinion of gaining additional market share in the Arranger keyboard market, even if some of the other features on the keyboard are not quite as cutting edge as the keyboard(s) with the lesser quality Drums.

Mike

I have a motif xs. I'm sorry, but I don't agree with this statement. They ARE somewhat better than Tyros, but they are still close miced without the room ambience or any convolution. My problem with that and maybe it's just me, is that the room sound helps to (for want of a better term) homogenize and marry the drums to the mix. In other words add tremendous punch, impact and a sense of spaciousnous with being overbearing.

Yanaha does have pretty good reverbs. I have a spx 2000 reverb on the console aux 5 and 6 and a AKG on 3 and 4, but I could twist the knobs right off the mixer and I just can't put in what isn't there.

Honestly, I have always thought my little psr 550 from years ago had more realistic drum sounds than my Tyros.


[This message has been edited by pianodano (edited 09-28-2007).]

I think that Yamaha's drum sound reflect their market position on the PSR and Tyros lines... That is, keyboards specifically marketed AT and voiced FOR the 'home' user.

As such, the 'live' dynamics and punch that is so important to performing publicly, where you are TRYING to get as close to a real 'live' band as possible, actually works against you when you are at home, and want a more polished, CD-like sound (after all, that is what you are comparing yourself to, at home).

Add to that that probably most home arranger users have never played in a live band (the vast majority of arranger sales go to hobbyists and amateurs) and wouldn't recognize a good 'live' sound even if they had one, and you start to see Yamaha's position on these sounds.

They certainly don't BUILD their arrangers for professional use (despite them being used by many as such), nor include so-called 'pro' options like larger keyboards, so it is unlikely that they would voice them that way...

JMO, yada yada yada...

Well you could say:

And Tyros2 is an Arranger - NOT!!!

Not according to Yamaha anyway - see front page of Manual - Digital Workstation.

And I suppose it is. It doesn't have proper sampling capability but it does have a load of advanced features if you can only find the time to work out how to use them.

John




[This message has been edited by jwyvern (edited 09-28-2007).]

John...he was comparing PSR to MOTIF not Tyros2.

Ian

Diki, I know you're gonna take this hard.

You'd better sit down and take a deep breath.

Ready?

I agree with you 100%.

Ian

I never agree with Diki--it's against my principles!

Cheers,

Gary

Originally Ian granted, but similar comments tend to be made about Tyros in this type of discussion, and I think people in general are talking "Yamaha" rather than a particular model. I may be wrong though in which case they'll all think the drums are perfectly OK on Ty2.

But this is digression
John



[This message has been edited by jwyvern (edited 09-28-2007).]

I just thought I'd quote this just in case you came to your senses and deleted it!

Seriously, though... thank you. I've never had a problem with Yamaha's, in fact, I'm very envious of many of the OS features and quite a lot of the sound-set, but my primary goal is playing live, and replicating the 'live' band experience for my audiences, and until Yamaha decide to do a true 'pro' model, with punchier drums and a choice of
different 'pro' keyboard sizes, like they provide for the Motif users, sadly I'm not even able to contemplate one.

Maybe Yamaha will address this one day if they are able to get over their 9000Pro jitters, but probably they consider guys like me too small a market to be worth going after. Shame, really, as so little needs to be done to make an effective live sounding arranger, but at least they DO focus exclusively on the one market, something other manufacturers MIGHT be better off financially doing.

But sadly, some of the best professional OS features are on an arranger voiced specifically for home use, and some of the more 'pro' built and voiced arrangers (especially Roland) have what I would, at best, call 'home' orientated OS's. Hopefully, ONE of them will address the other's needs, or I'll be permanently stuck in limbo, but forced by my job to use the 'live'-est sounding arranger despite it's shortcomings.

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 09-28-2007).]

My new Roland Sonic Cell PRO has Drums in league with the Motif line and it was 800 bucks, tax included. My point is that it wouldn't take Yamaha tons of money either to put a few outstanding Drum kits and other cutting edge features such as USB 2.0 etc., like those found in my econmically priced Sonic Cell PRO - into the T2 successor. In other words, Yamaha's excuse about it costing too much (which they have tended to use when it comes to adding professional sounds and other features into their keyboards, Motifs included) should be no excuse at all. So if a Yamaha rep happens to give you that excuse it will unfortunately be an erroneous one. The Reps have to oblige the higher ups and say what they want them to say or they run the risk of getting canned. Which on the one hand is not such a bad option when the company you work for is being less than forthright with the public. Whichever company that may be that is. I'm not pointing fingers, just pointing out some things.

I mean c'mon. A Tyros2 costs more than a fully loaded Motif XS"8" already. The T2 successor shouldn't have to cost an arm and a leg "on top" of it already costing more than the TOTL 88 note Workstation Motif XS should it? I didn't think so. And if it does it will be a travesty in my opinion. And needless to say I will pass on getting one. >> That you can count on.

Mike

Yamaha is more than capable of outstanding drum sounds:
http://www.yamahasynth.com/demos/plg150dr/dr_solo.mp3

You know if it's time for you to graduate from the PSR,you could always pick up a MO 6 and *tweak* the drums to your taste.

I can't agree more. Wouldn't it be fantastic if our personal preferences were included in all the styles out of the box. Not so..in any arranger. For live play I almost always have to add juice to the bass and drums. But, once added...no complaints.
Eddie

Double Ditto to what both 'travlin'easy' Gary Diamond & 'btweengigs' Eddie Shoemaker said.

Scott

I never said they weren't. I too think the Motif XS drums are some of the best on the planet. The debate is about Yamaha putting excellent drum kits on their top-of-the-line Arrangers. They're doing better as evidenced by the Tyros/2. But I think they can do better. And I think most people would agree with that sentiment. Especially at the price Yamaha is charging for their high end arrangers.

And unfortunately that PLG-150 expansion card from the drum demo you posted can't be installed into a Tyros2. You could put the PLG-150 into a PSR-9000PRO to supplement the 9000PRO's drum sounds but doing so would cost around $250.00 a pop.

Best,
Mike

Mike was checking out your demo tunes on your website nice stuff....was the T2 vocalizer used on Dont Be Cruel if so which mode?
http://keybplayer.tripod.com/Dont_Be_Cruel.mp3

Thanks for stopping by my web site Donny.

In the song "Don't Be Cruel" I am using the Tyros vocalizer. I don't own a T2. The EQ settings were slight Low EQ, less than detent Mid EQ, and an extra amount of High EQ. I can't give you the exact settings because I change them around and that song was recorded about 3 years ago. The basic rule of thumb for setting the T1 vocalizer is sparse amounts of Low EQ, around half amount of the Mid EQ or thereabouts, and more than half and upwards of three quarters (or more) amount of High EQ. At least that's what the manual is basically advocating anyway. Your mileage may vary of course depending on volume level settings of the Mic control knobs on the Tyros, the Microphone you use, the process used to record the song i.e. quality Mic and other type cables vs. cheap cables, sound entering the Mic other than your voice which needs to be kept at a minimum otherwise the vocalizer will be more prone to distortion, etc., etc.

A lot of the above precautions and settings would be a lot less important in the scheme of things if Yamaha had given the Tyros/2 a more robust VH to begin with. As it stands now, all we can do is hope and pray that Yamaha will bring that objective to fruition in the T3. The objective being a top notch Vocalizer that stands head and shoulders above the competition. And not impossible to achieve in my opinion either, but with Yamaha's lackadaisical attitude thus far in the VH competition wars, they will indeed have a lot of catching up to do, and with little time to accomplish it. In theory it could be as little as four months before Yamaha shows up at Winter NAMM 2008 with the new T2 successor. More likely though is that we won't see a T3 until Summer NAMM 2008 (in July) or in the worse case scenario not until Musikmesse in February of 2009. Although if Yamaha waits until 2009 they risk losing massive amounts of the arranger keyboard market share because of the technology that is changing so quickly in the area of keyboard feature implementation. In other words, the other companies may leave them in the dust to play major catch-up.

If Yamaha does indeed wait until Musikmesse 2009 for their T2 successor it better have Firewire 800 and/or USB "3.0" instead of USB 2.0. And it MUST have MORE than 128 note polyphony. No if's, and's, or but's about it.

Best,
Mike

One thing to watch out for (and probably a good reason Yamaha haven't updated their harmonizer for a long while) is that Yamaha Corp. don't make a standalone harmonizer...

They don't have a pro product in the field to drive along technology and allow some trickle down to the arranger division. Korg license TC Helicon technology, one of the industry leaders in pitch shift technology, Roland have their own pitch shift technology used in the VP series, but Yamaha don't really have anything standalone like that.

They ought to have a try to license Eventide stuff... some of the best vocal pitch shifting I've heard. Or, even better, license the Auto-Tune algorithms, nowadays, the industry standard for pitch correction (which, to be honest, many of us need a lot more than fake harmonies!) and some good auto harmony software.

OTOH, you could just play with good singers...

Mike thanx for the reply.....I enjoyed many of the songs on your website also.....
You make alot of sense about Yamaha catching up soon or being relegated to the back of the class in the arranger wars...

I guess we'll see what turns up.

stay well

D

Yamaha arrangers (including T2 and S900) are HOME keyboards, Donny, and as such they are VERY successful....more than any other brand, for that matter.

Even though they are designed for amateurs and hobbyists, it just so happens that many pros use 'em to great effect.

Back of the class?

Not a chance, my dear fellow; certainly not in the HOME market.

Ian

ian read mikes post above again

I read it just before I read yours Donny...what's your point?

It is merely one person's conjecture of Yamaha's future.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 09-30-2007).]

gotta agree with diki, (although that's not hard to do) they have even dropped the facility in their motif range to include the PLG100VH add-on board (which is the same as the harmonisers on-board the T series)..all you can get is a vocoder on the XS8 (optional on the 7)...and i concur that yammie would be well-served to licence eventide, very good gear!!
As to the whole yamaha keyboard philosphy, it's difficult to knock a winner, no matter what they do, it obviously works the way it was intended (extremely well!!!), and to me, thats good enough for success...
cheers
dennis