Thanx everyone

its on the FS forum if your interested
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum29/HTML/001918.html

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 04-29-2006).]

what happened?

Donny, you've got mail.

Thanx Tom....check your mail

Well...did you guys make a deal?

Fran you got mail...

so is the honeymoon over with the midjay dnj?

What will come next?

Donny:

I love your posts, I wouldn't necessarily call them controversial, but you certainly get a lot of response. You have a way of getting the wheels in motion for some interesting discussion.

[This message has been edited by Stephenm52 (edited 04-27-2006).]

Gee, I wish I had mail... ;-(

Not to worry KBRKR...I'm out of the mail loop to. But, then again, I am really happy with my 3K and not interested in trading.
Eddie

Eddie, are you coming to the Shreveport jam?
DonM

thanx again

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 04-27-2006).]

Donny I could be wrong but I think you may find an even trade with a Tyros hard to come by. Someone might not want to trade one piece of gear that is capable of doing the same thing as the two pieces of gear you're trying to trade it for. And even though the A37 Controller KB has 76 keys the Tyros has an Octave switch which accomplishes the same thing although it takes practice to use it seamlessly in a Live situation. The Octave switch feature works with the Tyros' Registrations also. You may find more opportunity for selling the Midjay and Roland A37 Controller KB on eBay and you could possibly get a higher price for them there.

It's worth trying to trade or sell them here but you may find an even trade for a Tyros hard to come by. Especially since the Tyros has 128 note Polyphony versus the Ketron Midjay's ?? polyphony. PS: Ketron doesn't list the polyphony spec for the Midjay but it's highly unlikely it's over 64 notes. Seeing every other board or module they sell is 64 note tops including their top of the line SD1 Plus.

Having said all that I hope you indeed do find a buyer for your gear and acquire a Yamaha Tyros. You won't be disappointed in my opinion.

Especially since the Tyros2 has been reported to have lag time when changing voice banks or voices within a bank and some think the CPU on the Tyros2 has reached it's limit and in fact is past its limit because it does indeed experience a noticeable lag time. Which could raise havoc I would think in a Live situation. Fortunately the Tyros does not exhibit that noticeable lagtime phenomenon. So going with a Tyros instead of a Tyros2 is not only a much less expensive proposition but in my opinion a wise choice. You will be getting the same polyphony as the Tyros2, the same amount of keys, the same Live! Grand Piano and Live! Warm Grand Piano patches as is on the Tyros2, a better looking design in my opinion, and all for a 'bundle' of money less. And believe me the SA voices are overrated expect in a few instances such as for example the SA Trumpet, the SA Tenor Sax, the SA Solid Guitar, and the SA Concert Strings . But Yamaha is on the right track with the SA voices and I expect them to improve upon the SA realism in the future. But hey! The future's the future and now is now. It's a great time to buy a Tyros! For all who are interested GC has marked the Tyros down 500 smackeroos from its original purchase price. Negotiate with them and most likely they'll knock down some more. Bargain with them and they might even include some bonus items like a carrying case and/or the Tyros speaker set. But if you don't already own a high end arranger and money is no object then go for a Tyros2. Just beware of its limitations or should I say lag time.

My 2¢

Best regards,
Mike

Mike, as one who performs live on Tyros2 everyday, I've not experienced this. I've found whatever lag time to be no different than I had experienced with Tyros1.


Mike, I can't disagree with you MORE here. The Tyros2's SA voices (not just the ones you mentioned) are, in my professional opinion, a big standout, especially for LIVE performance. For the first time, I'm now able with Tyros2, to showcase far more expressive realistic sounding 'instrumental solos' in live performance. I was not able to obtain this kind of expression with Tyros1, and I've received much audience-client praise to confirm this as well.

My favorite S.A Articulation voices (of the 42 available) & which I utilize most for live instrumental soloing are:

Concert Guitar
Steel Guitar
Pedal Steel Guitar (including special SA pitch bend feature)
Warm Solid
Clean Solid
Nylon Guitar

Saxophone
Big Band Sax

Jazz Rotary Organ
Rock Rotary Organ

Trumpet
Trumpet Fall

Big Band Brass
Brass Falls

I believe that Tyros1 continues to be a good value for its current re-sale price, but think that Tyros2 offers even much much more than I originally anticipated when upgrading from Tyros1 to it. In addition the super articulation voices, much improved kb feel, and convenient HD recording capabilities, Tyros2 now allows you display lyrics & chords , and save these in regs 1-8, making music display when performing, MORE transparent than ever. Though I continue to appreciate my MusicPad Pro unit as much as ever because it contains stacks of fakebook music to fulfill just about any obscure request, I now have over 150 songs which AUTOMATICALLY appear on the Tyros2 display screen when I select a song in registration. Better yet, I've tied specific song sections (verse, chorus) to come up for it's associated reg (1-8) as well as a an indication of which reg button to press 'next' during a song. The best thing about all this is that the audience has NO CLUE that any lyric sheet/chord chart is being utilized. Nothing at all to get in the way between my and my audiences now, though I continue to take along the MusicPad Pro to satisfy any offbeat requests.

Ok, before I start sounding like a commercial for Tyros2, I'll shut up now.

Scott

I've got to agree with Scott. There is no latency between voice selections on the Tyros 2; NONE! Let alone wreaking havoc.

The keybed on the Tyros 2 is MUCH better than the Tyros 1. It's very pleasant to play now.

Not only did they add the SA voices which are extremely life like, they remixed or re-sampled almost every other voice in the unit. The voices are astounding.

Just getting the facts straight. I like having the dedicated Lyrics/Score button now. I use that a lot. Plus a biggie for me is having a default registration come up with your lyrics file loaded automatically is a BIG bonus.

Nothing Happened Frank..........In so many ways the Ketron MIDJAY is so much better sounding then many of the top arranger KB's on the market it really kicks butt & I needed that aspect to record my new CD
"Swingin with the Big Bands" of which the MJ made it so simple and did its job very admirably........now that the project is complete I really dont need the MJ. Its an awesome piece of gear but my needs keep changing & I have to change with it as I always have thru all the years as a Keyboard Artist performer.
So now I move on .....
the like new MJ is still available if anyone is interested.
Good luck to you my friend

Donny, now got you loaded onto my iPod along with Dreamer, Gary and other PSR Artists. Oh, yea almost forgot also loaded Fran's "dated version medley of tunes(with Fly me to the Moon) done on the G1000." I liked the sound of the G1000 so much as played by Fran that I just had to load it to the iPod. It's the syle of music I enjoy playing the most.

P.S. I was listening to my XM Satellite radio in the car a day or so ago and heard Michael Buble and Nelly Furtado sing Quando, Quando, Quando. Holy Smokes, you and your daughter do a great knock off of their version. Kudos to you both!




[This message has been edited by Stephenm52 (edited 04-28-2006).]

Oh no Donny. Back to your old trick of DELETING your postings again?! That's really a dis-service, especially after so many people took the time to respond. At least you aren't able to completely remove the thread (including responses) as you used to be able to do



Ok Donny, I acknowledge you like the Midjay because it "kicks butt", of which I assume means having that classic Ketron "in your face" punchy sound, but why don't you be more specific about the ways the the Midjay is "better sounding" than the competition.

Ok Donny, we all know you didn't specifically purchase the Midjay for your CD recording project alone. Why don't you be candidly honest and tell us why you now SUDDENLY want to sell it, and go back to Yamaha(?), especially considering the FACT you spent so MANY MONTHS bashing Tyros2, and recommending the Midjay as so much better. Your continuous 'back & forth' fickleness really promotes confusion, especially to 'new members' who look to us senior members & pros here for keyboard brand/model purchase guidance.

I myself remain extremely happy performing with my Tyros2 keyboard, irregardless of the months of unrelentless anti-Tyros2 teasing & taunting you and Fran Carango aimed at me & other Tyros2 enthusiasts here, and of which regrettably drove valuable contributing Synthzone members: Roel Dejonge, Heikki Kahola (theWolf), Chico Brasil, and Notlos (Dirk Baert), to leave this forum altogether.

Ok. Thanks for letting me blow off steam.

Scott

Steven thanx so much .I am so glad you are enjoying my CD "Swinging With THe Big Bands"
I had fun recording it....specially with my little girl on Quando Quando......I also want to thank so many people around the world for their requests for a copy too.
I'm already working on my next project CD hopefully to come out by years end that will be Totally Played Live on an arranger KB & not on a Midjay
Stay well my friend and
Play Music Every Day!!!

Scott...me taunting you!! I don't recall any taunting..Maybe you can go into your archives and quote me..Keep it in context..

As for bashing the Yamaha Tyros 2..Never happened..I never even looked at one, so why comment..Tyros[original ] is another story, but I never bashed it..maybe pointed to it's construction and key size[not bashing..just facts]..
Apparently you and Chas on another post have something eating at you..Why don't you guys email me, and we can figure out the problem..

As for the fore mentioned guys mentioned..the only one I commented to was Roel..actually asked him the same question I asked of you and Chas....

If you want to go over something that still seems to fester in you..you know how to reach me....other than posting..But if you wish..here is fine with me..

Originally posted by Scottyee:
Oh no Donny. Back to your old trick of DELETING your postings again?! That's really a dis-service, especially after so many people took the time to respond. At least you aren't able to completely remove the thread (including responses) as you used to be able to do

Old Trick? Hmmmmmmmmm..... seems like a simple thing to to no trickery there Scotty...if its allowed on the forum its my prerogative as a poster to edit or delete my posts as I see fit.......IMO. Thoughts sometimes are posted in error & need to be edited or deleted no big deal.....people can surly get the gist of the topic from the subject title.…

Ok Donny, I acknowledge you like the Midjay because it "kicks butt", of which I assume means having that classic Ketron "in your face" punchy sound, but why don't you be more specific about the ways the the Midjay is "better sounding" than the competition.

Scott once again, The Midjay is just a Tool, I make it sound better then the competition thru editing, tweaking playing abilities, performance experience as a professional keyboard musician/singer...Im not ashamed to say it my friend ! I dont care what your using Tyros, Pax, G70 etc etc if you aint got the talent or the goods it aint going to sound good no matter how many gizmos, gadgets, these Kbs have on board & if you can prove me wrong Please do so at your convenience.


Ok Donny, we all know you didn't specifically purchase the Midjay for your CD recording project alone. Why don't you be candidly honest and tell us why you now SUDDENLY t want to sell it, and go back to Yamaha(?), especially considering the FACT you spent so MANY MONTHS bashing Tyros2, and recommending the Midjay as so much better. Your continuous 'back & forth' fickleness really promotes confusion, especially to 'new members' who look to us senior members & pros here for keyboard brand/model purchase guidance.

Scott there were many reasons I purchased a MJ....recording was the biggest decision.....the rest was using it in my act on stage due to its superb sound that we all know Ketron products are capable of.
Its flexibility is unsurpassed IMO.
As for guidance from us pros on purchasing an arranger KB for newbies ....I always tell them to go play them first,do not listen to all the different mine is better then yours senarios which confuse a potential buyer even more or post some of your tunes so we can see & hear what level your at and get an idea of what someone is looking for with their specific needs in an arraner KB.....Finicky? hahahahah again, my prerogative my friend....I switch gear, buy,& perform with many tools & use them on stage, whatever it takes to complete the job successfully so that my clients, & audience are happy. Bashing Tyros2? I think its a fine instrument in the RIGHT hands......but it could also be the worst instument in the WRONG hands for sure..............can I perform with one? yes....would I buy one? possibly, does it lack a few things that I personally need to perform on stage and would like to see included maybe in future models? yes, did I bash it when it was released? yes, I also apologized for that somewhere in another post for jumping the gun. Now Scott, I hope I answered some of your questions Im a busy man & Im off to a gig now....I'll check back later to kibitz with you again tonight...I guess I might have to buy a TYROS 2 and really prove what Im talking about once & for all....its not out of the question in the near future

I myself remain extremely happy performing with my Tyros2 keyboard, irregardless of the months of unrelentless anti-Tyros2 teasing & taunting you and Fran Carango aimed at me & other Tyros2 enthusiasts here, and of which regrettably drove valuable contributing Synthzone members: Roel Dejonge, Heikki Kahola (theWolf), Chico Brasil, and Notlos (Dirk Baert), to leave this forum altogether.
Ok. Thanks for letting me blow off steam.
Scott

Scott if they choose to leave ....Oh well its their loss.....this is a public forum where SZ members offer their opinions good or bad on many topics......this is real life not Never Never Land..if they chose to leave its their prerogative, if they want everyone to agree and always love a certain product that aint gonna happen either, you wanna blame me fine .......no sweat off my back...do your sometimes annoying posts bother me ? No way .....I kind of find it amusing & it gives me a reason to post more....maybe someday I will surpass your posting record


[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 04-28-2006).]

Fran. As far as any festering resentments. I had long forgotten that, but I suppose they re-surfaced because of Donny's now sudden 'turnaround interest' in Tyros now.

Fran, as for bringing up your name in the thread, it's clear to me that most of the active SZ membership (except perhaps you and Donny) have acknowledged (as evidenced by numerous email & phone conversastions) that both you & Donny had been unrelentlessly knocking Tyros2, claiming Roland G70, and Ketron a far wiser keyboard decision. The fact that you never even played a Tyros2, or a Roland G70 (at least at the time of those postings further emphasizes why I was so upset. Ok. Now that I've had a chance to vent, I feel alot better, so hope everything's cool between us now, at least it is on my end.

Donny & Fran: Peace & friendship to both of ya.

Scott

Friends.

The latency with Tyros/Tyros2 is not in the actual voice selection (when you make a selection using the screen buttons A-J). To understand what others are complaining about, try the following...

* Turn on your keyboard (Tyros, G70, SD1Plus, Genesyes ...etc).
* When it completely boots up, perform the following...
** Usually the default voice group selected is PIANO.
** Press STRINGS and see how long it takes from the instant you press the strings button to the time the string voices are actually displayed on the screen for you to make a selection (using the buttons to the side of the screen).
** Now press ORGAN and see how long it takes for the organ voices to be displayed on the screen for selection.

I have done this at the lab and this is what I came up with (using the units here).

In the case of ...
TYROS2 - it appears about 1/2 a second goes by before the voices are displayed on the screen.
G70 - close to instant.
PA1X (if within the same bank, close to instant. If in another bank, about 1/2 a second).
SD1Plus - close to instant.
Genesys - close to instant.
PSR3000 -close to instant.

I think this is the latency in question (please correct me if I am wrong). The PSR3000 appears to have a quicker 'screen response' than the Tyros!

AJ

Scott, No problems here..I only felt a need to respond..

Hi AJ,

The amt of time after pressing the specific voice bank family button and for the page 1 voice list to appear is 1/4 sec on my T2, but in 'live' performance, I would NEVER select sounds this way anyway. Why?

Unfortunately (or fortunately) depending on who you talk to, on all Yamaha arrangers (PSR3000, Tyros, and Tyros2), when selecting instrument voices from the voice selection bank buttons, it includes no effects (reverb, chorus, etc), resulting in a DRY (lackluster) sound. What I do instead is create & store custom REGISTRATION Banks of my FAV personally tweaked instrument voices (with added effects: reverb, chorus, delay, etc to suit my personal liking) and simply call up voices 'on the fly' this way. Much faster (and with zero latency delay) than standard voice bank/voice page selection on other keyboards as well. I personally wished Yamaha would have included some default reverb efx settings when selecting voices directly from the Voice Bank buttons though. and have expressed my views re this to them.

Scott

Scott,

Thanks for the update. The speed at which this same action is carried out/implimented on the PSR3000 or the other keyboards mentioned above is way less than 1/4 sec.(don't have an exact number for all). Remember too that the T/T2 have the highest screen resolution ... so far!!

You are right about the voices not having any initial/original effects. Strange how Roland (with the G70) choose the other path and added excessive effects! But again, manufacturers each have their own methods.

PS:- Do not forget to send me what we talked about yesterday once you're done.

Just curious. How do you measure a 1/4 second??

A finger snap is about 1 second.

We are really splitting hairs (or seconds) here . Must be a slow day on the forum.

Jerry

Very Quickly.

1/4 second is 250 milliseconds...that is too long of a delay for sound.
Playing samples in real time needs to be under 10ms..

Taken from "Human factors of computing systems"

ABSTRACT

For years, software engineers have been told that applications must respond to user events within 100 milliseconds to seem instantaneous, yet this assumption has never been systematically tested. In this research, we attempt to establish thresholds of detection for changes in a graphical user interface using adaptive tracking. For keyboard interactions, subjects did not notice delays of approximately 150 milliseconds. In contrast, for mouse interactions, subjects did not notice delays of up to 195 milliseconds. Given these findings, further research is clearly needed to firmly establish lower bounds on application responsiveness so that software and operating system engineers can more precisely tune the interactive real-time responsiveness of their systems.

Jerry that isn't even close to the tolerance for music applications[software]..

I think you may be comparing apples to oranges here. The 1/4 sec latency has NOTHING to do with the time it takes for the sound to play after selecting the voice, but instead, the time it takes for the LISTING of available sounds to appear after pressing a 'voice bank (instrument family)' button. Once you select the actual instrument voice patch, the voice can be played & heard IMMEDIATELY (no delay/latency) whatsoever.

In live performance, where instant access is needed, selecting voices directly via voice 'instrument family' buttons doesn't make sense anyway, no matter which brand keyboard, because after selecting the appropriate voice family bank button, you'll often then need to open a subsequent page/window to find & then select the actual voice you want to play, and all that usually takes FAR LONGER than 1/4 second.

In addition, as I already thought I had clearly stated earlier in this thread, with all Yamaha arranger keyboards, selecting voices DIRECTLY from the voice 'bank buttons' merely calls up the instrument voice, with NO EFFECTS (reverb/chorus, etc) added, so not really suitable in that state for live 'on the fly' performance selection. I instead prefer & recommend storing personally tweaked voices (with reverb/chorus effects added) into reg and calling up live play instrument voices for 'instant access' on the fly performance selection that way. - Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 04-29-2006).]

The general rule for latency is understood to mean the time it takes from when you hit the key to when you hear the sound. This should be 10 ms or less.