Is softsynths the way to go, laptop, midi board etc???

navagationaly its a nightmare vs an arranger kb imo

Softsynths and a MIDI controller can work very well and provide lots of options in the home or project studio setting where everything is already setup ready to go and there isn't immediate pressure to keep an audience entertained.

In a live situation a dedicated keyboard is definately the way to go. More compact, reliable and has an interface that is designed for a performer.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 12-23-2004).]

I don't have a lot of experience with synthsofts, however, from the little exposure I had a few years ago, there seemed to be too many ways to make a dreaded mistake to use in a live situation.

Gary

I would have absolutely no problem controlling a softsynth with my Motif ES in a live band situation. I run FL studio as a host and it has yet to crash on my laptop. I have flp files that are set up like registrations are setup on an arranger. I can recall them in an instant.

Still, in a live situation, there aren't many sounds I really need that the ES won't do for me. I would not really want to use the soft synths at all in a live solo act. Just too much else to focus on.... I like One Man Band, and would even consider using it as an emergency backup, but an arranger board still seems to be much better navigation wise.

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 12-23-2004).]

Is there a future for softsynths? People say it'sthe next big thing. Keyboards will be nothing else than a computer with keys...example Wersi keyboards they are windows Xp based already in use.

While developing OMB, in the last 2 years, I have been in close contact with live performers. I noticed that what they were interested in for arranger functions was very different.

Some were mainly interested in being able to add superior (softsynth) sounds.

Others wanted to add all kind of gadgets that they needed to help them play and entertain the audience.

For adding softsynths and soundfonts you need a soft arranger, like it or not. And with all the added gadgets you may even like it.

I don't agree that it's difficult to navigate in OMB8. You can get all the presets for a particular song in only 3 key strokes (presets-key, submenu-key, choice-key).

And beside style and multivoice the presets may include much more:

- a text-note with chords and lyrics
- the complete scanned score for the song that will scroll
- a wave with sound effects for the intro
- a midi or mp3 file for accomp instead of a style
- a karaoke file that will scroll in big font

Navigating to the style variations doesn't need to be a problem either with all the options for that. How about using a wireless numeric pad for that?

I didn't have live performance in mind when I started developing OMB, but in the last two years live performers came with requests and they got what they wanted.

Jos

Check out the M-Audio Keystation Pro. 88 key controller http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=home/search/detail/base_pid/709203/.

With 24 assignable buttons and 22 assignable knobs and software to integrate with popular softsynths, I think the day is dawning that you can use softsynths for live play.

I don't know if anyone is using this yet with OMB. I wouldn't venture into using a controller as an arranger keyboard for live play. As a nursing/retirement home performer, I want lightning setup and takedown time.

Beakybird

Interesting... I will definitely be taking a hard look at OMB sometime soon. Roland A37, B4, + OMB sounds like a light load that might just work.

Jos,

I hope you didn't take my last post as a knock on your software. It isn't.. OMB is an excellent and useful product to me. In fact, I still want to create and / or modify some styles and patches so that it works even better with other soft synths and hardware modules.

Family concerns have kept me away from this and for devoting a lot of time in general to music.

I just think that using my PA80 in a solo act is so very convenient for me because everything is right 'there' where I need it, and it's labeled as such. Also, I've had it for a long time now and we are very comfortable with "each other". Makes for less "thinking" about the technical stuff, and more thought can go toward playing my instrument(s).


Synth Guy... Absolutely there is a future in softsynths. A trip to a site like KVR-Audio can help put it into perspective better than I can, but here goes a little of my experience.

B4 by native Instruments..I've yet to play anything hardware ( other than a real B3 )that outshines it for reproducing a fairly authentic B3 sound. At around 200 USd, its hard to beat. Arturia's CSv80. ... The CS80 was one of the hottest analogs out there in it's day. Very expensive too.. some 7 thousand USd or so. I wanted one but it was so far out of reach.. nothing but a pipe dream. Today, the softsynth, which can be had for around 200 USd or so, replicates the sound ( and look and feel ) of the CS80 so closely, that perhaps the only way to tell them apart in a mix is that a very discerning ear might detect the lack of oscillator drift in the software... but even that can be programmed in.
I thought the Motif ES6 really had turned the corner toward the direction of a better acoustic guitar emulation.. 'til I played Musiclabs' Real Guitar. I like the latter so much better.

To put it another way.. I still like my Motif ES6, and will not consider parting with it. It's also probably the last hardware rompler I'll buy for a very long time. For sonic quality in the studio, I've already surpassed most of it's soundset via the use of softsynths and sample sets.

AJ



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 12-24-2004).]

AJ, couldn't agree with you more. I have been at it for years and will stay with softsynths and the A-37. While the control surface is not quite as good as hardware based solutions, it is good enough for me not to notice these shortcomings. In return I get high quality effects, sounds and reliability. It is flexible. You design and build the system to suit your needs.

Frank, your threads about softsynths a while back really helped pique my interest. Today I'm a believer.. big time.

I will add this to Jos too. One of the situations in which OMB can be most useful to me in a live situation is it's capability of pre-recording style data that I can play back live, for instance in a song where I want to play a little more intensely with both hands and don't want to have to mess with the arranger functions at all. It seems to really outshine XG works and my PA80 in this area.

AJ

So it sounds like anything else, if one works with OMB and say Hypercanvas, you'd learn to get around on it reasonably well for live play.

What about right hand solo voices? What about layering sounds together etc?

For me, I'm trying to see if the softsynth is the way to go and be able to continually update, or to consider getting a PSR3000 as an extra for my Tyros.

Scott Langholff

Scott Langholff, whatever you can do with a hardware based solution you can do with software - and often better. Yes, you can layer voices, edit voices, add effects and so on. In the end it is up to you and what you would like to accomplish. You need a good soundcard, a good computer (not the best), good software and good sound reproduction system. Once you are setup you will not return to hardware based solutions. Now it takes considerable effort to get it all setup initially but you will get a good return on your investment. I am an old man with limited mental capacity and did it. If I can do it most everybody else can do it as well - and better.

Hi AJ,
me too.
It's a pity that some of the posts were lost when synthzone went down a few months back.
If it hadn't been for Frank I'd still be daydreaming about what keyboard to upgrade to next ( & money wise a lot poorer).
Instead my ultimate goal is to tweak my styles to work in GM mode with Hypercanvas & OMB. Then, if & when I find a software soundsource that sounds even better with the styles, it will be an addition to, not a replacement for Hypercanvas.

As for OMb, it's my realtime aranger, psr style editor & now in version 8 it has sequencer functions too. Love the program.

best wishes
Rikki

p.s. my setup is only for home use, I'm not a performer.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bluezplayer:
[B]Frank, your threads about softsynths a while back really helped pique my interest. Today I'm a believer.. big time.

So tell us what would be the best setup based on what is currently on the market? This should be interesting.

There is no "best" setup Synthguy. That's kind of the point too. Using soft synths and host apps allows the individual to tailor a system that best suits him / her.

I can only tell you what works best for me, and that because I made it for me, it surpasses anything hardware I can get, especially for studio use.

I dont do a whole lot of style based work, so OMB is useful but I don't have to have it. Ditto Band in A Box and Jammer pro ( I have them all). These could all be more useful to me if each would open up as a VST in one of my favorite host apps.

FL studio is indispensable to me. It's a pattern based app, but also runs as a full sequencer / audio DAW as well. I run it alone, or sometimes open it up inside of Sonar 3 and work the two together. Orion Platinum is a viable alternative to FL Studio as a host, but I'm not certain that it can open as a VSt in another host ( maybe as a rewire device ? ). Slightly different approaches between the two but similar concepts.. I have Musdiclabs Rythym & Chords and Slicy / fill in drummer. These work only in Sonar ( or older Cubase systems ). I don't use the latter so much any more since I can quickly create and / or modify drum patterns in FL Studio.

I'm on a huge analog kick of late.. so.. Pro 53, Arturia CSv80, Arturia Moog Modular, RGC Audio Pentagon, Sytrus, Absynth, Chris Gill's Superwave series ( these rock ), Synth 1, and a host of other softsynths inhabit my virtual studio. I sometimes use my Motif ES6 as a module for drums and some electric bass sounds. I also haved some soundfonts ( Sonic Implants ) along with Edirol SuperQuartet to emulate acoustic drums and electric guitars. My VL150 Motif plug in for horns, reeds, and wind instruments, and quite a few different sample sets covering a whole range of instruments. These normally are played in my Kontakt softsampler.

Native Instruments B4 pretty much covers the organs. The freeware Z3 Organ does a surprisingly good job here as well. Musiclabs Real Guitar Vsti for when I'm too lazy or just plain unable to play what I want to hear on my acoustic guitar.

For effects... NI Guitar Rig, IK's Amplitube, Voxengo series plug ins.. plus many many more.

I use Live Synth Pro as a soundfont host. I've left quite a few things out I'm sure, but I think you can get the idea. This setup works great for me.... and it can and will be updated as new plugins come out. I have invested quite a bit in it, but it's been worth every penny. The next person might be happy with something completely different, and maybe at a lot less spent.. ( or maybe more ).

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 12-25-2004).]

SYNTH_GUY, if you do a search of flr2003 and flr2004 you should find the information on my system. AJ, is right. You build a system to suit your needs. My system is suited for live performances. It works well - really, really well!!! Would I say anything else???

Thanks for all the info. My next question is, how much? Is it more expensive with all the software. Why doesn't Korg, Roland, Yamaha make a keyboard based on a operating system, (GUI) so we can install the software we want, personalized catered to our needs??????? I was reading about Wersi Keyboards, based on Windows platform, anyone have any first hand experience with a Wersi???

SYNTH_GUY, my system is expensive - especially the virtual acoustic instruments, e.g., Garritan Strings, VRSound Sax & Organ, Scarbee Electric Pianos & Bass, Bardstown Piano and so on. I haven't kept track of the costs but I would guess it is somewhere around $4K.

Remember that we are talking "bleeding edge" technology here so using softsynths live is still not something I would want to base my living on. It'll make a difference when a good softsynth desktop control-interface GUI rises to the top that makes it as easy to select/control midi channels and softsynth assigments from a computer as it is to select sounds with hardware synths.

Reason 3.0 is due out soon with many enhancements specifically for live use. This may be an important step forward for live softsynth use and would provide the interface/control GUI I just mentioned. I don't know if anyone else on this forum is into Reason like I am, but personally I am more interested in using sequences than arranger functions on stage and in using a softsynth studio rather than a handful of individual programs, so the new Reason upgrade is of particular interest to me. In hardware, the Open Labs nEko LE is around the price of most other workstations now so that's of interest. Also the newer Novation X-stations look interesting because they have real-world function names on their knobs/sliders instead of just letters and numbers, and they come with the audio interface built-into the controller - anything that simplifies the laptop/keyboard combo is of interest. They also have come down in price recently and are available in 25, 49 and 61 note versions (waiting for that 76'er!).

Like everyone else here, I am still more comfortable using an arranger on stage than a computer for the instant-gratification/control thing. But I'm open to using a laptop as an expansion and later when the technology progresses a bit further I may consider going totally with softsynths at some point. My best advice is to stand by - Winter NAMM is just a few weeks away and there's bound to be all kinds of new products coming that'll directly affect stage softsynth feasability.

FL Studio is my host of choice as opposed to Reason, but both are excellent apps and they both can do many similar things. Orion Platinum is every bit as good as FL. Both have proven to be totally reliable on my ( 2.8gig P4 1024 mb )laptop. Nary a crash or even a freeze up.. having used them many times already.

I am interested in both sequences and arranger functions in a live setup Pro. FL more than adequately covers the former, but understand that it is much easier and more comfortable when I make preset templates beforehand, similar to creating registration memories on an arranger. I don't mind.. My laptop, after all, is my synth, custom made for me.

Synth Guy.. I will say that going the soft route was not about saving money for me. It was about having what I wanted in my system. Over the past few years, also figuring in the cost of my laptop ( 1,200 USd ) I have probably spent the cost of a PA1x and a Motif ES combined. I didn't have to, and in hindsight a good bit of the stuff I have gets minimal use ( Band in a Box, Jammer Pro, even Sonar to an exent... for example ). Still I wanted an all in one solution, and here it is. Nothing like that exists (for me ) in hardware.

You already have a computer. There are several very good freeware softsynths and host apps available at KVR for you to download and try, to see whether you think software is the best choice for you. There are also some very decent soundfonts available at the Hammer soundfont site. Some of these are of surprisingly good quality, and you can get a very respectable system up and running for virtually nothing.

If you missed it, I think Tracktion ( a commercial sequencer / vst host app from Mackie ), is still offering their software ( their latest 1. something version ) for free, as they get ready to release a 2.0. here is the link: http://my.mackie.com/tracktionpromo.asp

If you want it, do it now. the promo ends at the end of this month.

AJ




[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 12-27-2004).]

Wersi Ikarus and Abacus, Windows XP based. Any thoughts, seems to me they at least have the right ideia, but how dependable are they being base on a windows platform? Anyone ever fiddle with one of these?

Wersi Ikarus, how much? Anyone know?

Don't forget the Linix based Lionstracs. http://www.lionstracs.com/index.php?module=Static_Docs&func=view

I believe the Neko is WindowsXP based.

I agree that software based systems are the
way to go. With the prices of laptops constantly falling, (allowing 2 or 3 laptops for backups in case of problems), and tweaking the operating systems to the required programs, I think that crashing will be minimal.
The interface is completely open ended, such
as products like the Behringer BCF2000 for
programmable faders, etc.


[This message has been edited by Vquestor (edited 12-27-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Vquestor (edited 12-27-2004).]

http://www.organfax.co.uk/instruments/wersi/ikarus.html


21 kilogram = 46.2970751 pound

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 12-27-2004).]