Well??

They failed miserably with the 9000PRO and that was according to their own admission. >> "A failed experiment" as Yamaha called it.

Why did it fail? I think one reason was there were too many features on it and not enough 'horsepower' in the CPU Chip.

Another reason I think is Yamaha priced it too high and also because of the stigma attached to an Arranger Keyboard by PRO musicians. At least there was 5 years ago (5 year old model year - 2000) when the 9000PRO was released. Today I think the stigma is changing.

Yamaha had the right idea with the 9000PRO in that it was a 76 note Arranger, it had a Sampler, it had expansion capability, a wonderful Keybed, plus a plethora of other advanced features. But it failed....

So is Yamaha capable of changing a failed experiment into a successful endeavor? Yea, Nay, or May..be? Do they even have the technical expertise to do so?

What stops them from making a 76 note Professional Arranger now? No desire? No initiative? No know how?

Here is my blueprint for Yamaha to make a successful go at a 76 note PROfessional Arranger..

First off they need to get enough qualified employees to do it right. Pay the extra money to get highly qualified Design and Production personnel to get the job done right - 'the first time'.

Give it all the advanced features that are on the market at present such as a USB 2.0 or Firewire interface, a Sampler, Digital I/O's, Mega Voices >> but make them playable in a Live situation. Expandability through PLG add-on Boards. An exquisite Keybed such as the G70 or Pa1X/PRO has. Physical Drawbars like the G70 has and a usable B3 patch. Compact Flash or Secure Digital Card support, etc. etc... Then.., put in a CPU that can actually handle all the instructions sent to it.

Then finally take a lesson from Alesis and price the new 76 note PROfessional Arranger at a price point where it won't scare off 95% of the potential market for it.

Oh, and don't forget to do everything in your power to support the new product in every way possible to please your devoted customers.

There you have it Yammie..

A successful blueprint to a successful 76 note PROfessional Arranger.

You will sell a boat load of them and I will be first in line to get one.

But it's up you. The ball is in your court.

Do they even need the money? Do they even WANT the beaucoup amount of money that they will rake in with it? If they don't then don't make a 76 note Arranger. It's that simple in my opinion.

Japanese are very keen on saving face. IMO they could do so with a new 76 note PROfessional Arranger that runs circles around the competition; and in doing so finally put the disgrace of the 9000PRO behind them once and for all. End of story... And the beginning of a new era if they decide to make a 76 Key PRO Arranger in the 'hopefully' near future..

PS: As we all know the Tyros II is suspected of having only 61 Keys. Also worthy of mention is that Yamaha is apparently in cahoots with Korg to some degree. At this years Winter NAMM show there were guys walking around with Yamaha/Korg badges from what I understand. So theoretically and quite possibly Yamaha was in on the design and production of the Pa1X/PRO. If that is true, which I'm only speculating you realize, then Yammie already has a 76 note Arranger in the Pa1XPRO.

And Korg is charging an arm and a leg for it; so Yammie may be thinking: "Why should we make a 76 note Arranger ourselves?" There is already the Pa1XPRO and we get a slice of that 'expensive' pie anyway? Therefore there is no need to get our hands dirty building one ourselves? We'll let Korg, which we actually have Stock in and own a portion of anyway - do it. So what if the Pa1XPRO only has 62 note Polyphony? [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img] What do we care as long as we get our cut of the pie?

Am I way off base here or is there maybe a ring of truth to all of it?

Only Yammies hair dresser knows for sure... [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img]

Best regards,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 02-08-2005).]

The 9k ONLY failed as a marketable synth. It was a HUGE success in my eyes as a performance synth AND as a studio controller. That was far ahead of it's time, and I'm sorry that they didn;t just add the newer sounds, drums etc to what was ALREADY a fantastic housing.

Ditto UD well said.

Still loving my 9K Pro.

Eric

Aboslutely.
Starkeeper



[This message has been edited by Starkeeper (edited 02-08-2005).]

Mike,

I agree with Dave that the 9000 was a great keyboard and its only failure was in the marketplace. For most of us, anything more than 61 keys doesn't improve our performaces, however, it usually adds a lot of weight to the board, while at the same time jacking up the price by a considerable margin. And, I suspect that you are right about a Tyros II having 61 keys as well.

As for their technical ability to create a 76 key, high-quality keyboard--they could do this with their eyes closed. However, I sincerely believe that they are merely following what the marketplace dictates and the bottom line sales of the products.

It's nice to have a fantasy--including keyboard fantasies,

Gary

I owned a 9000Pro for 3 years and admit it was the best board I have had the pleasure of playing. Can Yamaha make another 76 key board....YES but it's all down to costing. To produce a 76 note Tyros would just not be cost effective for people to want to buy it.
I was told by a manufacture that the major cost of an arranger is the hard ware, a good quality keybed being the major part.

I agree with UD, the 9000 Pro was way ahead
of it's time.
I have owned the 9000 Pro since it first came
out, & to this date can't find anything that
is much better to replace it.
So I still love the 9000 Pro.
Denny

"Incapable" is incorrect... Yamaha probably makes more arrangers than any other type of keyboard actually if you include all their non-portable arranger-like instruments. One of their most feature-rich arranger instruments is the CVP-309, but it only comes in an 88-note piano-style cabinet and costs way more than any portable arranger. We mostly focus on portable arrangers here but the best arrangers can be found in piano cabinets actually, and at high cost. My personal fav, the CVP-309GP in a baby grand case, lists for over $13,000. CVP fans have their own forum at www.cvpug.com.

The problem is that noone has really had broad success marketing portable arrangers to pros yet. The closest anyone has come has been Yamaha with their Motif ES series (it's arpegiattor can follow chord changes so it's a quasi-arranger). As a point of interest, someone who attended NAMM 2005 went around to different manufacturers and asked all of them why so few 76-note keyboards of ANY kind existed - the answer was that historically 76-note keyboards have been among the worst sellers. So combine those two facts and a 76-note pro-level arranger begins to look like a recipe for disaster from the manufacturer's point of view.

Also, there is a lot of indecision about which divisions of a keyboard company would be responsible for the marketing and support of a pro arranger. The 9000 Pro fell between the cracks support-wise at Yamaha, with accessories like the PLG-series cards made and supported by the pro synth division and the 9000 Pro supported in the home keyboard division. The result is that expansion cards like the new PLG150-AP come with voice data for pro keyboards like the Motif but not for the 9000 Pro. Roland seems to be having similar problems - their US corporate recently moved their new G70 from the pro keyboard division to their home keyboard division.

Yamaha seems to be doing well with their Tyros and PSR3000 so they can afford to sit back and let Roland's G70 and Korg's PA1XPro be the risk-takers. I can't blame them, though I'm not happy about it.

My personal plan is to keep and maintain my two 9000 Pro's for the next few years and wait for either the pro-arranger offerings to improve or to move to a softsynth-based keyboard system that doesn't exist yet.

I love the looks of the 9000pro, great looking board. I had no clue that is kinda flopped. I think they should try again, they had the right idea.

Phil

I take that with a grain of salt Jim. The guy at NAMM who asked the Manufacturers may have an agenda or he could actually work on some level for one of Manufacturers that are steering away from 76 note Keyboards like you know who..

I think 76 note Keyboards (Arranger or otherwise) are actually in big demand and in no way are the Manufacturers (Korg, Roland, Yammie, etc.) hurting from the building, marketing or selling of them. You build for the market. You make as many as is necessary according to how fast or slow they sell and either increase or decrease production accordingly. That way they don't lose large amounts of revenue by producing too many for market conditions. They can always ramp up production if needed.

But there will always be a need imo for 76 key Boards.

76 Keys are a perfect go-between from the 88 note and usually much heavier Keyboards and the 61 note Boards where if you think about it, a person can run out of room (keys) on many an occasion on many a song. Octave Shift buttons are nice but in a Live situation it can be very challenging to master on the fly and are not at all practical for Live use.

And I can't tell you how many times I've flipped on the TV and seen the Korg Triton PRO, which is Korg's 76 key Triton, staring me in the face. Plus Korg has the 76 note Triton Extreme. Also regarding weight look at the Roland Fantom X7. 76 keys, and it weighs in at a very attractive (and slim) 32 lbs. Less than 5 lbs. heavier than the 61 note Tyros. >> 5 lbs. is 3 lbs. less than the weight of a U.S. gallon of milk which weighs approximately 8 lbs. In other words "no biggie", right? With composite materials getting lighter and lighter [and stronger to boot], it won't be too long imo that we'll see 76 key Boards weighing in at less than 20 lbs. Granted, that's probably a few years down the road but Roland sure has the right idea with the Fantom X7 which of course is on the market now.

The Motif ES7, Roland Fantom X7, Triton PRO, Triton Extreme, Roland G70, Korg Pa1XPRO, and the list goes on and on...

76 Keys are an extremely marketable item[s] and umpteen amount of Keyboard players would prefer them over the much heavier 88 note Boards and the less functional 61 note Boards because of their lack of keys. Especially if Manufacturers would get with it and also make fully weighted 76 note Boards. There has been and continues to be a big demand amongst keyboardists for a fully weighted 76 key Workstation and or PRO Arranger as you know. >> BIG demand.

But even more I think prefer semi-weighted or Synth weighted/Synth action 76 Key Boards because a large percentage of keyboard players are in to playing more than just Grand Piano patches on their respective Keyboards. Fully weighted keys and playing a fast Trumpet or Violin piece doesn't mix too well imo.

The point being is; either way, 76 note Keyboards are extremely sought after in my opinion and thus extremely marketable. They're not as big (long) as the 88 key ones are so they are better suited for portability. They have enough keys to where the chances of running out of keys either in the upper or lower registers during a song would be slim to noone. They're not as 'heavy' (ouch my back! ) as 88 key Boards are, thank God and in many cases cost "much" less than their 88 key counterparts. All of those benefits plus more and you can see why 76 keys are and continue to be hot ticket items and have a huge potential market.

The real question is Manufacturers making 76 note Keyboards that give the keyboardist what is pliable (workable) for his or her needs. In other words; make them par excellence. Feature packed and the utmost quality through and through, with a price that won't scare off a majority of the potential market for them.

My 2¢

Best regards,
Mike

Nobody wants a 76-note keyboard more than me... I've said that I intend never to own another 61-note instrument and I see nothing that will change that. But the guy I got that NAMM floor "survey" info from is a pretty reliable guy who is also a 76-note fan, and he said he asked pretty much everyone he met on the floor why so few 76-note instruments - poor sales were cited, believe it or not. There has to be some logical explanation why there are so few 76-note controllers of any kind on the market.

As you may know, I recently purchased a Ketron SD1. I do really enjoy the 76 keys. Also, my "fans" who regularly come to hear me have commented on the "new" sound, and ask what I've done to make it better.
Even though the SD1 has been out several years, and is a little behind the times in data transfer, it is also far ahead of its time in many other departments, including sounds, personalization capabilities and even live play.
The vocal inputs work great, and the vocal harmonizer is far superior to the Tyros/PSRs.
Main drawbacks for me are the smaller buttons and the way some of them are placed. However, with the help of the 6-switch foot control, I am finding it quite comfortable to play live.
My point is, when looking for a great-sounding 76-key arranger, don't overlook the SD1.
Support? How many companies come out with a new operating system, several years after introducing the keyboard, that in effect makes it almost new. That's what Ketron did. The new OS contains many new features, styles, sounds, etc., all at no cost.
DonM

[This message has been edited by DonM (edited 02-10-2005).]

I've got my finger crossed hopeing tyII will have 76 keys. It's not a complete keyboard unless it does. To me a grand piano put chills down the spine, when you get on the low notes and go to the top, this is hard to do on a short board, when accmpt is turned on,even making the shift with a pedal. Also I would love to be able to do more 3 way splits on the keyboard, not enough room.

I have a 9k and a pro, the pro is a beautiful keyboard, but I've never been able to get the sound half as good as the psr9k I've tried everything I can think of, even using the psr settings and pluging it into the same sound system, It just seems to not have the same system or something. I recently installed OS 2.0 and that helped a lot, but It still dosn't sound half as good as the psr. If I knew what I know now, it would have been returned immediately, after I bought it, But it does a great job setting in our local church, and the 76 keys allows oridinary pianists to use it.

Looking forward for the TyrosII but if it dosn't have 76 keys (YAMAHA)! I'll keep my psr9000, Right now I prefer it over the Tyros. The tyros does have some very nice features, But to me its a Cheaply made keyboard, Don't like the feel of it,and They took out the scats, (love em). I don't need anything else thats not in the 9000, except 76 keys, and additional storage....Pose

Another option would be to make a Tyros II module - like Ketron. Like that you could plug in whatever style keyboard you want.

Absolutely my very own opinion!!!!
1. A long run of piano octaves available is a MUST.
2. There is nothing earth-shattering that the the Tyros has over the 9000.
3. Only the 9000 with 76 keys (in this price range)would be a dream board.




------------------
Eddie from Rotherham
www.yamahakeyboards.info

To The Pro,

Do you happen to know if the 76 note keybed on the 9000 Pro is the same as the one on the current MoES, ie, is it the Yamaha FS keybed that first appeared on the DX7 and has been used on the M1, the 01/W, the Trinity, etc., etc.?

Also, if I want one, now that they are discontinued, where would be a good place to get a good condition one? I looked at Ebay and there weren't any for sale there.

Thanks,
Tom

------------------
Bigger is not always better