Line array system from JBL with different sized tops and bottoms
http://jblpro.com/products/portablesound/vrx/

New lighter Bose L1
http://www.bose.com/controller?event=DTC...5318&src=k15318

$2999.00? thats $1000.00 MORE then the original PAS?

Anyone here planning to demo the new Bose?

Compare Apples to Apples. The L1-II without the new tone module is $2,500. And the base station is much lighter.

The Bose is getting more and more interesting. As far as the JBL's are concerned, those are more for hanging and flying than a quick setup. I want to know more about the PAS II. $2500 isn't a bad price for that.

I thought the JBL was just for hanging too. Until I looked at pg 2-3 of the brochure. Check out the pole configuration.

In total it's heavier than the Bose but still might be a better sound.

As always, hearing is believing.

Robert,

For some strange reason I thought you had either heard, or purchased, the Bose L1 (PAS).

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

OK Rob, but now we're getting into Mackie, EV other JBL sizes and weights. It certainly looks intereting and I'd like to hear it or a report from someone who has it.

with the jbl you need a mixer, amps, and a crossover, not to mention about 90 lbs for one sub and one small 8" two way speaker.
With the new Bose if you don't get the tone module you get one input and no tone control so you either need the tone control or a mixer.
The retractable legs in the base are a good idea but I hate to see what you have to give up.
Basically I think it's a lot more money for the little advantage it offers IMHO.

Gary: Heard the Bose. Held off on getting. Glad I did. The Model II looks much more easy to transport with the lighter base. I hope they or someone comes out with a single case for the Base module and the L1 base. For now I am still using the Logitech 5500. However, as you had suggested, I did replace the center channel with a much beefer speaker. The result is a much improved mid-range.

Mike: I don't think you give up anything. Most of the base on the Model I was for balance.

I think Unless you get the tone module you give up the mixer and presets in the base of the L1. I agree I like the new base I just wish they could have improved it for the same price point. Even a couple of bucks more for the new tone module would be ok. But you really can't compare the original L1 with its built in mixer and presets to the new L1 without the tone module with just one Line-level analog input that accepts 1/4" TRS.
That's what I mean by giving up a lot one is a complete system the other needs either the tone module or a mixer.
Of course I could be wrong and maybe I'm speaking from the perspectives of do I find enough of a reason to upgrade from the original to the model II. If I was buying a system from scratch that might be different.

Rob ... what kind of speaker did you replace it with?
t.

Tony: I am using a Boss MS-100 for the center channel with the Logitech. It's not made anymore. It's a pair of 5" speakers in a single unpowered enclosure. Similar to the Nady PM100 Personal Monitor at zzsounds.com or Galaxy Hot Spot at sweetwater.com. It made a huge different with improved tone quality.

The JBL VRX should not even be mentioned in the same breath as Bose. The JBL is a serious speaker, and bose is a joke in live PA

Gary.

Well, nothing like offending a whole lot of people with your very first post.
Today I received my second Bose L1 system. One I can leave in place at the club where I work, and another for other jobs.
It's by far the best PA system I've ever heard, much less owned. And I''m old and have heard 'em all.
Welcome to the forum!
DonM

Uhhh oh!

chas

Gary have you used a Bose system? Why do you say its a joke. What are you using now & why for sound reinforcement?

Robert&Gary,
Where this Boss MS-100 speaker is available?What improvement you have noticed by using this speaker?Is this centre speaker works well using pro logic movie effect in Z5500?please clarify.

Thanks,
Sunny

I have the original L1 with the tone module. I find the presets very good in matching the optimum sound of the instrument to the system. With the L1 classic and ToneMatch, I have all kinds of connectivity,presets, effects, and much better control of EQ on four channels. I have used a mixer, but it is not as good as the ToneMatch , for me at least. I may be giving up a small degree of lateral sound dispersion, but it would not be noticeable in my venues.
Bernie

"The JBL is a serious speaker,"
For serious money, and is not meant as the same all in one solution as the Bose. You can't compare apples and lettuce.

You guys need to check out the new JBL PRX500 series of powered speakers.

I just recently switched to those and honestly they perform much better than my Mackie system ( 2 x sa1521 + Swa1501).

I also considered the Bose, and when I did a side by side comparisson between the Bose and 2 x PRX 512 + PRX 518 sub, JBL was clearly the choice.

Bose is nice for smaller audiences, but lacks that powerful sound that JBL has.

I personally think that the Bose is way overpriced for what it offers. I purchased the JBL package for $2600 , where I could have bought only one PAS system for that money.

Here is a link for the PRX series with built in CROWN amps :
http://jblpro.com/products/portablesound/prx/

p.s. the PRX 512 weigh 40 lbs each , and the 18" sub is at 79 lbs.

My old Mackie system : SA1521 119lbs each and sub was at 120 lbs.

The Bose L1 / II + single Bass package is at 82.5 lbs total weight, and you need 2 packages totaling 165 lbs.

vs
JBL package at 159 lbs total.

Ahhhh... weight.

Thank God we are not comparing PA's by THD, SPL and dispersion angles. Wouldn't want to focus on what a PA does, now, would we?

How about color, next? Another REALLY important consideration in a PA...

Well ,

we can compare the SPL's and THD + the dispersion angles. I can assure you that the JBL system will win!

The reason why I mentioned the weight is because most of the guys here work alone and carry their setup by themselves!

Oh by the way, JBL has a CROWN logo on the front that lights up! How cool is that!

Well, the JBL line array system out-costs, outweighs and outperforms just about ANYTHING that anyone here uses. Kind of like comparing a Ferrari to a Camry. Both will get you there... you just get there sooner in the Ferrari

I can just see someone trundling in the JBL's to a NH gig...! Someone's going to get a heart attack (probably the Entertainment Director)

yawn......slow day, ? Nothing worthwhile to discuss?

Very True DIKI!

I do play for a different audience and also a slightly different kind of music.
But, I love to drive a Ferrari!

I thot the same about this post until I went to his website and that changed my post here. this dude has some serious qualifications in sound reinforcement, and may very well be an asset to this forum
Welcom Gary to the synthzone, (I think)
Bebop

Well it's a nice website, but he still hasn't explained himself.

Apples and Oranges/

My 98 lb wife can load the Bose in her Spyder. carry it and set it up in 10 minutes without any help.

Now tell me where one can buy a PA that will fill a room of 300 people with Bose quality direct sound on a 180 degree plan and have preset digital scenes for different people as they join her or us as well as different EQ set ups for each room for $3000 total.

Theres the comparison that should be made when discussing the Bose System. There are a ton of heavy systems that have higher SPL, chest pounding Bass etc......But none with the sound quality, small footprint and PORTABILITY all in the same package as the Bose.

We sell and set up plenty of church systems and are Crown dealers as well. Apples and Ornages. We sell and install Mackie systems, Yamaha ,EAW. Customers could care less about THD and SPL. They want to hear the program material to their satisfaction. Same with the Bose. We recently became a dealer after I bought a system for the wife. The system sells it self. Its not for everyone. Traditionalists will not get it. Those who do "get it" understand its the combination of quality, portability, Warranty support, and personal attention one gets from Bose. Try getting all of that with any other system. You will get better sound and less portability, or more portability and compromise in sound quality, no support, Severely limited warranties, Need poles, monitors, more wiring etc......

The Bose delivers plenty in sound quality, Certainly better than a traditional Mackie set up if you are not sitting directly in front of the speakers. We have JBL MR15's and Mackie 808s PA System the Bose replaced sitting in the garage which is relegated to back up. Yeah its louder......Sometimes low and clears is better than loud ad harsh with 3/4s of the room listening to reflections of the sound off the floors and walls......and having to blow out those in front so those on the sides can hear.


[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 05-18-2008).]

As you say... apples and oranges.

Playing elderly materiel for the elderly crowd in a low volume, even distribution gig is as far away as you can get to providing contemporary music at contemporary volumes to today's clubbers, where the dance floor NEEDS to be several orders of magnitude louder than the rest of the venue. Or taking rock music to rock club levels.

As such, two completely different forms of PA are needed, both of which are totally unsuited for the other's job...

The problem here at SZ usually rises from one form of PA user assuming that ALL other jobs and situations are the same as what they are doing successfully with the form of PA best suited for it. Which, of course, is patently ridiculous. Strokes for folks... You can no more do a full dance floor gig with a Bose PAS at REAL dance floor levels, than you can a country club gig with a massive PA/DJ rig.

Some of you haven't been to a youngsters' night club for a while, have you? Or been out to hear a rock band (or funk band, or 'emo' band, or...) or anything else much, lately. I can assure you, no PAS system (unless it is HUGE and unaffordable) can get even close to those volume levels (that the audience WANT ).

The PAS is an excellent system at doing ONE thing. Providing crystal clear sound at low to medium volume levels in mono with a very wide and even dispersion pattern. If you need this, it's your huckleberry... But if you need more conventional concert volumes, at CONTEMPORARY levels, it is, IMO, a very poor choice.

There is nothing wrong with this... nothing is the master of ALL trades. But I sure wish some of the PAS cheerleaders would recognize that there ARE situations where it is NOT the best choice, by a long shot. Many dance venues need the music to be it's loudest on the dance floor, and as quick a drop-off after that as possible. The PAS actually works against you in these situations.

I just wish we could quit 'evangelizing' these equipment purchases, and make a more realistic opinion about their strengths, and acknowledge what weaknesses they DO have. An unwillingness to admit ANY flaw simply comes off as 'fan'aticism...

A six piece band should have SIX PAS units & subs because that's what it was intended for not a band PA! "Personal Amplification System" Just because some find it appealing to use it as a Full band sound unit doesn't change BOSE intended use which is being overly abused.........I too took the hype & plunge at first introduction .....but after I really started to get into the bigger gigs I knew I needed more....way more then 2 subs could provide.So I dumped it....People also always want to justify their money spent too on this unit which IMO Is way too much.. but thats another story......

Gotta agree with Diki on this one...

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 05-18-2008).]

Woah!

Hold it right there.


I AM younger than most people on this board (if not all) and I DO play "Club gigs", high energy dance gigs to young crowds (and old crowds, drunk crowds, "pub" crowds etc etc) - and btw I thought we were all about Church gigs here, when did Dance Club gigs and young audiences come into the argument?

Nevertheless I've made it perfectly clear in previous posts (obviously nobody gives a toss what I think) that the PAS cuts it for young crowds - younger than most of you guys play to AND fills a room with Great. Loud. Clear Bass - anyone remember CLEAR Bass?
(Actually even Chest thumping, if it's loud enough - but not to the level where it hurts you - in a bad way - like traditional club speakers that go further than the Bose can).

In our experience, the only people that have problems with the Bose, are people OTHER than the audience.....if you know what I mean.

We stopped anxiously asking the dance crowds "is the sound alright?" a loooong time ago.

Btw KF, you were SPOT ON regarding that "Traditionalists" comment - spot on.

(Would anyone care to follow me over to the thread I created for just such an occasion as this?)

I wouldn't assume anything, if your that young you have alot to learn, most here have 30-40 years of pro giggin' experience from clubs & EVERYTHING else in-between way before you were around & way before arrangers & Bose Pas systems.....know your facts

Predictable response,(and weird quoting) and bad spelling (You are = you're).


Like I said, see you all in the "Bose thread."

I'm glad you now understand my post....
have a wonderful day.

Thing is, hellboy, you're assuming that those of us that reject the PAS haven't even heard it, or something, I'm not sure what. But simply thinking 'to know it is to love it', when faced by several here that HAVE bought it, and rejected it (see above), or those like myself who have heard others through them, and tried them out in stores extensively, and rejected them, is to deny the fact that it isn't for everyone, or every venue.

Like I said, in my particular case, I dislike the even coverage, and, to my ears, somewhat anemic mids. Most venues I play do NOT want the same volume all over the club. They want it concentrated on the dancefloor area, and a decent volume, but they want it lower in the rest of the room. PAS cannot do that.

But please don't assume that no-one that rejects it doesn't know what they are talking about. If I hadn't heard and tried it, I would not be giving an opinion! We are happy it works for YOU, and many others here. Just don't get upset if it doesn't work for everybody. I'm not ramming MY choice in PA's down anyone's throat. It isn't for everyone, despite sounding incredible. It works for ME. But if it doesn't work for everybody else, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

Finally, don't even START to assume that this forum is entirely OMB NH gig players. There's a lot more diversity here than meets the eye (you're here, aren't you? )...

Well we have 20-30 years of pro gigging and ended up with the PAS system. We have the JBLs, the Mackies, The Subs....But always choose the Bose. Most of whet we play is Keyboard guitar and sequences with pre recorded break music.

We have never had a "can you turn it down" Can you turn it up" "suggestion" since using the Bose. We got that all the time using the conventional systems becasue of the hot spots ,reflections, and limited dispersion conventional arrays have,

Like studio monitors the "Sweet Spot" is very narrow with conventional systems. Thats why concert systems use wide arrays of speakers rather then just two huge ones facing forward like typical band PAs.

They are trying to achieve the Bose effect in a huge way by using wide dispersion arrays of speakers in semi circles. The Bose system eliminates that issue totally at a nearly 180 degree field. THAT's the beauty of the system for some and the bain for others. Everyone including the performer is in The "sweet spot" , Everyone including the performer hears the same sound albeit at different levels determined by distance from the source.

Some people like exaggerated bass response. They need 18's for those 30hx frequencies and a ton of power. The Bose will not deliver in those cases.

Diki, I was responding directly to your own assertion that some players here don't play to younger crowds, I responded because I often do. I don't understand why you say I'm the one fobbing off the Synthzone community in this way when one of the main points of your post was that some people on the boards don't play to young dance crowds and don't realise the kind of sound levels/dynamics/energy required to play to that kind of crowd.

I do.

(None of the older members pulled YOU up on this *below* I notice)

"Some of you haven't been to a youngsters' night club for a while, have you? Or been out to hear a rock band (or funk band, or 'emo' band, or...) or anything else much, lately."

I know you've heard the PAS, please don't tell me what I'm assuming as, let's face it, BOTH of us assume enough for the entire board! (smiley inserted genuinely)

The only thing that gets my goat is the snide, exaggerated "comments" - to put it politely - re the Bose, that masquerade as critique (or argument) as if they somehow settle the matter.

I'm no evangelist and have been very level headed about all this IMO.

I keep reading where the Bose PAS system is so expensive,,,,Actually its a bargain.

Consider this.
A conventional PA needs a couple power amps which can run $1000 right there, now add a couple JBL MR15s and Subs, Bamm another $1500 or more. Now add a digital mixer.....Powered monitor speakers or hotspots, Cabling and stands as well as the proverbial truck needed to transport and time needed to set up and all of a sudden the Bose PAS looks like a hell of a value....Becasue it is,

If you use a Mackie 808 you will still end up at or more than $3000

If you use SRM450s Theres $1500 right there. No subs, no mixer, no stands, no cables.....And those are nice speakers IF you are sitting in their Sweet spot which isn;t nearly 180 degrees and those who are are still getting floor and ceiling reflections mucking up the works becasue they have to be turned up so those not in the sweet spot can hear the reflections bouncing of the walls........

I am getting really tired of this 'sweet spot' rubbish. I thought I had explained this well enough in the past. You have a stereo at home, I presume? Do you turn it into mono, or switch off one of the speakers unless you are sitting in the 'sweet spot'?

No, you do not.

And yet (and this is blindingly simple to test) you can discern that there IS a stereo signal from most points in the room. Yes, of course, it is not the PERFECT spot for absolutely pinpoint imagery, but until you get a very considerable distance from it (basically, another room, if you are in a house, or at the back of a large hall in venue, you CAN discern that the music is not mono, and has a spaciousness that mono cannot provide.

Simply make a test file of a piece of music, and take random sections of it, and turn them into mono, and leave some stereo. Sit anywhere in your room (or stand anywhere in a larger venue (except directly in front of one of the stacks within 1/5 of the distance between the stacks) and play it back. If you cannot hear what sections are stereo and which sections are mono, I suggest a trip to an audiologist...

It is entirely your choice to use mono or stereo, I don't care either way. But to keep repeating obvious (and easily checked) misinformation about it's effectiveness is a disservice to the forum.

Look, the PAS has many strong points. But you don't get brownie points for playing down it's weaknesses. They exist. It doesn't do stereo well, so what do you say? 'the "Sweet Spot" is very narrow with conventional systems'

And that, gentlemen is pure spin... Or, if you prefer, a "snide, exaggerated 'comment' - to put it politely" in your words. You CAN discern stereo over a MUCH wider angle and distance than just the 'sweet spot'. Downplaying the importance of stereo just because your choice of PA cannot do it well smacks of the 'fan'aticism that I was referring to.

Wow!! I agree with Diki two times in one week great post!!

I must say I'm with Diki on this one as well.

Good post...makes total sense.

Ian

Diki, you're getting too worked up about this (and that's coming from me!).

You yourself are putting too much of a spin on what is being said - a "spin on a spin" if you will. For my money, a sweet spot can be quite large and STILL "miss" people. This isn't just the "back of a room" argument, but a "side seating" argument, which I've explained previously.

In addition, sweet spot should also refer to volume level - i.e. a "Hotspot of volume" which point source speakers have, and Line Arrays and speakers exhibiting Line Array Properties (the Bose is , after all, a scaled down Line Array when it's all said and done) do not.

Or as KF put it previously"

"For those reasons people usually say the Bose sounds "clear" and they can hear themselves talk AND the Music because there are no harsh hot spots. People on the sides are not asking to turn it up while people in the front are asking to turn it down. Of course the performer has no idea what they hear because he is using a monitor that is sending reflections off the ceiling and back wall.....All the sound waves bouncing around the room because the system has to be LOUD enough to fill the room cause MUD and are eliminated with the Bose because the sound is evenly dispersed in a 180 degree area. Ironically, You can actually play louder with the Bose because you don't have all these reflections to deal with. Clarity and Volume. The Holy Grail of a good PA Set up and mixer. Clarity in the ROOM, not just coming from the system."

(Sorry to cut n paste, but I felt he put that better than I could have).

If you want stereo you can have it with 2 PAS systems, which many people have done (and many have not) the result, apparently, is a huge amount of stereo coverage due to the wide dispersion of just one system, and indeed a large amount of Stereo crossover if you will, for the same reason.

I wouldn't do it for 2 reasons

1. Expense (for me).
2. Defeats the purpose (somewhat) of a quick setup and ease of transport (double the amount of systems to carry & load in.
3. It's just not necessary (for me)

Diki, nobody (I hope) is trying to exaggerate the "evils" of stereo, and the God given "goodness" of Mono. You are the one, I feel, who is turning this into a Stereo vs Mono debate, and focusing too much on that - I mean that sincerely - there's MUCH more to the Bose *discussion* then that.

Please stop referring to me (at least) as a fanatic, that's also misinformation, and putting a spin on things.

(I guess you don't know me personally, but if you re-read my posts, I've tried to be fair and objective - I have, at least, created an entire thread devoted to the Bose emotionalism topic, so we can all have a fair discussion on the topic without fanaticism.)

If you'll permit me, one more cut n paste from the beginning of the thread I just mentioned:

"1. I think people CAN have their own opinions on ANY piece of gear, philosophy, working methods, Religion, favourite colour...WHATEVER.

2. I don't think, and have never said, that the Bose system is for everyone, and people can love the sound, hate the sound, judge the sound as is their right.

3. I'm not espousing the system in this thread - even though you all know what side of the fence I'm on - I want an honest civil discussion.

4. Failing that, I'm happy for this thread to degenerate sooner or later into a Love/Hate Attack/Defend diatribe (from BOTH sides) because maybe this thread can be like a "virtual swear Jar" where people can post things as nasty as they like if it keeps other threads from being "Bose polluted".

I hope that comes across as fair.

Also, just a bit further down I stated:

"I've even had emails from more than one Synthzone member (and they will remain anonymous) advising me on the system in PRIVATE so as not to cause trouble!!

I mean, when was the last time someone on a forum felt they had to hold "secret talks" about some PA gear for fear of ridicule or attack????"


Now THAT'S Fanaticism.

Look, think what you will, hellboy. Not EVERYTHING is about you! Both you and Kingfrog trotted out the lame stereo issue this time around, and several have tried the same spin in the past , so my reply was not just aimed at you (I actually quoted KF as well as you), but for the whole forum to read. Agree or disagree with it how you like. It doesn't change the facts.

The Bose system in a mono ONLY system. Do a search on their website, if you don't believe me. There isn't a single mention of the word stereo anywhere in the entire PAS section. This system is specifically designed to NOT be in stereo, but to have multiple mono units (one for each player). And even that won't provide a stereo image, precisely because of the non-localized nature of the sound (stereo works by having TWO localized sound sources, with a left and right perceived signal interacting with your ears to create the illusion of a 2D image in the middle).

There are quite a few reported issues with people getting WAY less than good results while trying to achieve stereo from this system (do a search here for stereo and PAS). Phasing issues, poor imaging, all what you would expect. Bose make stereo systems, for home theater, music AND PA, and would certainly advertise this capability IF it was possible.

Look, I'm happy it works for you. Congratulations. Me, I've played in stereo for decades. Curiously, I also have rarely come across the 'turn it up, turn it down syndrome', nor has anyone EVER complained about being in a poor spot to hear the stereo. So, a PAS isn't going to fix any problems I have, because I don't have them! Maybe just knowing how to set the PA up optimally is all it takes, Who knows?

Anyway, this is rapidly devolving into a infinitely decreasing spiral (and we all know where those end up!), so I am done with this. I am happy you have found a solution that works for you, but no amount of spin is going to convince me that the PAS is the solution for me, or anyone that likes stereo. Having already tried it (like many others here), I really don't need anyone to change my mind. It's superiority is NOT unquestioned, it does have significant flaws, but if you can ignore them (I can't) it can be a great system....

Now, how about a bit more talk about what MUSIC you are actually playing through them, as I think this is FAR more important than what you play through?

Hell, maybe even a snippet or two...

You could even post in mono if you wanted to...

Why do my posts (specifically the last one) strike you as all about me?

I only state that The Bose "works for me" (and variants of same) because
a)It's true.
b)It's a fair way to state things.
c) You yourself (and most other reasonable people on the boards) use this way of speaking about their favoured systems so people DON'T think whatever system they happen to be espousing is the "be all and end all".

You are either not understanding me, or deliberately being obtuse - I really can't work out which one.
For the record : I'm happy you're happy too! (Have I ever said otherwise - really???)

Now, when I said:
"the result, apparently, is a huge amount of stereo coverage due to the wide dispersion of just one system, and indeed a large amount of Stereo crossover if you will, for the same reason."

I meant "crossover" in a bad way (implying phasing amongst other issues) so if I didn't make myself clear, then that's my bad.

Below is a "Bose-Wiki" link that you may have missed (as you only seem to make reference to the forums themselves as your primary source of Bose info), that describes a way to playback a Stereo signal between two Systems - I believe it involves utilizing an auxiliary output.
http://toonz.ca/bose/wiki/index.php?title=T1_ToneMatch%C2%AE_Audio_Engine_/_USB_/_Output_Stereo_to_Two_L1%C2%AEs

(I hope the link as I've pasted it works btw).

You do your OWN searches for other examples if you like (mainly in the DJ sections I believe) and I hope that satisfies. I haven't done Stereo searches much (or reading) because I've been too busy reading up about other tech/sound/setup issues that affect me more directly.

Even if it doesn't satisfy you, I don't mind, I'm not as interested in running in Stereo Live as you are - I simply brought it up because you did, it wasn't the centrepiece of my argument, and I don't regard the ability of the PAS to do stereo (or not) as one of it's significant flaws that's your opinion and perception.

I'm glad you're done with this - maybe it will stop the pointless discussions - I'm more over this than YOU are I can tell you.

As for posting any Demos of us (my Wife and I) Audio or Video, (Stereo or Mono), and whether you're really interested, or whether it's just an attempt to divert the conversation away from this long diatribe (and I don't blame you there) you can't have any!

Why?

Because we haven't recorded anything Live for quite sometime, so I don't want to show my "baby pictures" so to speak (not many people do - least of all me).
Studio wise (original songs) I don't think we'd have anything of interest to the vast majority of forum members - yet.....

(You see we're setting up a Basement Studio in the next few months so I'll gladly share the fruits of THAT labour then)

In other words, when we have something worth showing - that's recent - I'll show it.

(Thanks for asking )

.....fight nice, children.

Wheres the so called Bargain if you need "TWO" complete PAS systems for STEREO plus carry all those pieces too?

Diki you are confusing "sweet spot" with STEREO..Stereo is terrible when reflected off walls on one side and heard directlyu on the other, Yeah its differnt but that not a good difference. It's "rubbish" to claim stereo sopund great even when not time aligned. It simply does not.

In all systems whether mono or stereo there is a spot where you are hearing the sound DIRECTLY from the speakers. Unfortualy due to room limitations present in small clubs those who are not sitting within direct line of the speakers are hearing reflecions. The bane of good audio.

When you add different material (a la Stereo) coming to the ears off the far walls at different times...simply... mud results. Yeah you can hear the difference between mono and stereo sitting on the crapper in the club. And?. but thats not to say its GOOD..just that there is a difference. The various timing of seperate channels of frequencies hitting the ear can mess up a stereo signal pretty badly. No way can anyone convince me reflections off the far walls of the right channel arriving milliseconds late from the direct sound from the left channel sounds anything but terrible no matter how loud it is (which makes it worse).

The BEST sound is CLEAR unreflected sound spread EVENLY across the listening plane. whether mono or stereo. The Bose system does this better then any single or dual speaker system I have ever used or heard in a typical OMB club environment. I have been doing this stuff for years as well and there is no current dual speaker system AT ANY price or power better for equal sound dispersion along a 180 plane then the Bose used a typical OMB or duo situation. I have tried many systems and currently have a really nice and higher priced Mackie/JBL system sitting unused in favor of the Bose.

I humbly add we are fortunate enough to buy any system on the market without regard to price and again the Bose mod II system is the best by a long shot on many levels that go beyond the clarity and consistancy of the sound for our purposes. And its not as expensive as most top end conventional similarly powered systems

I really believe some people see" nothing" and have an issue with the price beacause they see just a pole. They are stuck in a paradiam. Stuck in convention. The same "conventioal thought" by those who cannot imagine a concert in mono even though most huge shows are mono mixes by design.

Good for you...

But sadly, your arguments are no more persuasive than before. EVERY room you listen to a stereo in (short of an anechoic chamber) is rife with room reflections, standing waves and nodes. Somehow, this has NOT stopped people preferring stereo to mono over the last sixty years or so. What on earth is wrong with us?

Just tell me you listen to a MONO home music system, and I'll go away...

And let me know if you start to play large concert venues. Me, I play clubs, restaurants and corporate banquets. NONE of which are large enough to mandate a mono PA.

Look, SURE there is a 'sweet spot' where there is optimal stereo imaging. But what you are refusing to acknowledge is that every other spot is NOT 'sour', just slightly less good. If your goal is to present the same, mono sound to everyone in the room, you have hit the nail on the head. If you want to present a two dimensional sound to ALMOST everyone in the room, you cannot achieve this. I can. I can also be a LOT louder on the dancefloor without disturbing the back of the room. You can't (you are simply playing venues and audiences that don't WANT 'loud at the front').

Listen, let's get back to this in twenty year's time, OK..? If everybody is listening to line arrays of mono music, I will eat my hat (chicken or otherwise ). If they are not, you eat yours...

Everybody was predicting the LAST Bose systems (you know, the 802's) were the 'wave of the future' when they came out. LOTS of little speakers in an unconventional cabinet (sound familiar?), with dedicated controllers, etc.. And yet, despite all the hype, here we are donkey's years later, without this style having fulfilled the hype, or become the de facto type for PA usage..

History (apparently) teaches nothing....

I HAVE played in amphitheaters and major venues and have worked with major sound companies such as Clair Bros in those venues I can assure you it sounded great in mono.

As for my home system the SPL is not loud enough for the imaging to become muddy with reflections. I prefer the spaciousness of stereo when I am stationary and focused on the source. But I control every aspect of what I hear therefore I do not understand how you can even compare a home situation with a venue, That reeks of the assumption of an amature view,

Science aside, people sitting in a club 25 feet away from one speaker and 50 feet from another are not getting the best possible sound no matter how spacious it "appears" Frequencies arriving together is the most pleasing way to hear any sound source. Yes it is indeed "sour" and not just "slightly less good" IF that were the case major venues would be using stereo mixes rather than mono.

Quad sound is even more spacious but that tightened up the ideal listening area even more and failed. At home one can CONTROL the balance and the sound. Not so in a venue where the artist decided what the audience will hear in many case not the patrons best interest.

Those siting in one area think it sounds great, Some sitting in another area are missing program information (but hey it sounds "spacious") Yet others are sitting in the hot spots and being blown out. I don't know about you but I want control over what EVERYONE hears and prefer they all hear the SAME content the same way. Thats what the BOse system does. It gives one the EVEN sound of playing in a huge venue without the arrays and wide dispersion needed. And that my friend is far more important then a highly reflected dtereo image "just because thats the way we listen to music at home" You can't be serious using home listening as a comparison to playing in an uncontrolled fluid venue......Yet it appears you are.

I don't need to sell you or anyone on the BOse System. However if you look at professional performers who play 5000 seat venues have a look at the sound system. You will see a system that Bose copies for a smaller venue.


The 801's did very well as I remember and the L1 is doing even better. However old habits are hard to break. Have a peek in the mirror and you will have your answer to your historical question. People are never quick to adapt to that which they do not understand believe is better just becasue it always was. Nothing hiders progress more than a stubborn paradigm.



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 05-21-2008).]

Sorry, old chum, but your superiority must be unquestioned in this matter. At least in YOUR mind

The day that a major concert venue sticks up ONE stack of a line array, behind the musicians, I will eat my hat. All your supposed experience with Claire Bros. and this is the best you can come up with? Just go and ask any of these guys when they will be doing any concerts using a single PAS system (or even one per musician). They will laugh in your face! 'Amature' indeed!

You fail to grasp the utterly different concept between PROFESSIONAL line array systems, and Bose's interpretation of it. Bose's line array systems are designed to give a 180º coverage in the horizontal plane, because they are supposed to be onstage, by the musician. Pro line arrays have a far more conventional horizontal coverage. and are designed for different sections of the array to project at different sections of a large concert venue in the VERTICAL dimension, in FRONT of the musicians, who still have a conventional monitoring system. Two entirely different concepts and usage. Don't confuse them....

I'm sorry you feel the need to denigrate any other system to justify your purchase, I am certainly not trying to persuade you that 'my system is better than yours', why the arrogance about yours?

I should have stuck to my guns when I said I am done with this topic. Like I said, let's review this topic in ten years' time, and then you can tell me again what an idiot I am to suggest the Bose's have any limitations, and may not be the future of PA amplification, OK?

Gloat AFTER you have been proven right, not before....

Geez, you go away to help the wife finish off some renovations and look what happens...

Well seeing as Diki can't leave this bone alone (as usual) then I won't (as usual)

KF did you really mean to imply that:

1. One single Bose System could do a Major Concert.
2. The Bose has no limitations whatsoever?
3. That it is the future of Live Amplification?
4. That Diki is an idiot for suggesting both 2 & 3 are untrue?


If so, you owe him an apology as these things are gross exaggerations.

If not, I suspect they are Diki's exaggerations to help support his argument.

His Straw man Argument.


So comparing the Bose to what we were originally supposed to be comparing it to in this thread (JBL's VRX 900), I think they're both capable of great sound. I just don't like the weight & Size of the VRX, otherwise it looks swish - really.

Also, how many VRX systems do you need for a smaller venue (I'm unclear on this - I confess I haven't read much of the VRX link beyond some basic specs).

This is important because it will determine overall cost and portability.

As far as the Bose goes I would recommend:

Solo, Duo and (pushing it) Trio: 1 system (with at least Dual Subs).

4 or more players: 1 Bose between 2 (on average).

On a side note, re - cost, I recently sold our old PA system for $2200 reducing the cost of our new Bose nicely.

Anyone handy with a paint brush???

AS usual you twist the debate to fit your "facts"

Lets review. Array as defined by me is the even distribution of waveforms over the widest area possible. Period. The Bose does that in small venues. I never implied as you invented that the Bose is in any way an Arena system.

The idea of both systems is EVENESS of sound.

I also never mention a line array in a concert venue. Again your invention to bolster your argument.

The Bose System projects sound waves evenly across a nearly 180 degree place. A concert array is hung and designed to do the same thing in a much larger venue.

Reflections are the bane of good clear sound.REVERB (you know what that is don't you?) are reflections. IF you have ever heard a mix awash in reverb you heard MUD. The Bose system (as are concert systems using sweep arrays of speakers rather then all facing is designed to minimize reflection... Conventional speakers project equal sound to the floor and ceiling, where it gets reflected back down as reverb. Add to that a floor monitor directing sound towards the ceiling and more reverb..more reflections.....MUD.

The Bose PAS is designed to direct most of the sound in a wide, FLAT plane sending very little to the floor and ceiling. The sound is clear all the way to the back of the room (Just like large venues array designs)

It appears Bose just found a way to achieve the same effect in smaller venues. If people do not like these speakers its because the owner has no clue on how to gain stage.

I have owned many systems and Actually having this unit I can compare it based on actual experience rather based on theory or listening to someone else' system who may or may not understand hot to make this system do what it does best rather then just trying to be as loud as possible.
Like I we can buy any system we want and I do have experience in large venues and I would recommend the Bose system for those who perform where the audience and manager appreciates clear sound where people can actually have a conversation without having to wait till the somg was over.

Provide your own definitions of anything, and you will always be right (in your own mind )

Go online, and look at the HORIZONTAL dispersion of any PRO line array. Find one that is 180º? Didn't think so...

Next...

BTW, did anyone even bother to go to the VRX site and look at the stats for this system? I am fairly sure the original poster did not, as they are utterly different systems in price, power and coverage. And intended usage.

As was stated LONG ago (before the Bose 'fan'aticism got started)... Apples and oranges. Or even apples and elephants.

Peace out, y'all. Let's talk again in a few years about the 'future'

So the gig last night went better than expected.

There we were, playing in a horror room (a regular venue for us) where apart from the bad acoustics, you have a VERY transient crowd. The setlist careered from Old Rock (Bad moon Rising, Lookin' Out my Back Door etc) to Top 40 (Sexyback, Please Don't Stop the Music) and lotsa stops in between.

Then a funny thing happened.

We got to the end of the gig, and all the people on the dancfloor rushed up to us and demanded to know what that "weird Pole" was. I said that's our PA.

Well...

They all fell to their knees and started chanting in worshipful tones for several minutes.

THEN...

Several of them produced coloured ribbons from their pockets and tied them to the top of the Bose and started dancing merrily around the pole singing "Hey Nonny Nonny, we love the Bose"

(It was weird I can tell you...)

NEXT

The Manager came up and demanded to know how we got that sound, or, as he put it, the best Darn sound he had EVER heard ANYWHERE!
I said, well it's the Bose of course silly, and he IMMEDIATELY doubled our pay for the night!

UNBELIEVABLY

The Bar staff came over and led us round to behind the Bar, where they said we could have our pick of ANY top shelf drink (I chose some Frangelico - an Italian Hazelnut Liqueur, and my wife, Rose, chose an 80 year old Bottle of Red) so apologies for the late reply...it was a hell of a night when we got back home!

I wonder about the " Bose 'fan'aticism" is it the guy that has shopped around tried different systems and finally bought one brought it home and learned how to use it and set it up to his best advantage? And now would like to share his experience.

Or is it the guy that has never owned one, never used one, maybe heard one used badly but hijacks every thread to "explain" to you the owner and user of the Bose It'll never work. And you and your audience are just fooling yourselves.
We all know "on paper" the light bulb will never work, the telephone isn't practical and those automobiles will never replace the horse and buggy. And of course bumble bees can't fly. Oh and "the sky is falling,the sky is falling".

But I just have to wonder who is the fanatic ?

[This message has been edited by mikeathome1 (edited 05-23-2008).]

Your're kidding right? I hope so. Because modern Arena Systems deliver more than 180 degrees of DIRECT sound. Why is that? Because DIRECT sound is the best sound. Reflected sound is trash. Your argument doesn't deserve merit on the basis of a pro system not being behind the musicians as the Bose can be. The reasons for that are obvious to ....well perhaps not to you. One of the nice things about the Bose is it can and does offer the direct dispersion of sound evenly across horizontal plane and yet does not require the monitoring system of a massive PA. (Partly due to each member wanting separate monitor mixes.


The only Small venue OMB or Duo PA system that offers direct sound at nearly 180 degrees is the Bose PAS. The idea is for EVERYONE in front of the act to hear the sound as if they are sitting in front of conventional speakers. Any conventional speakers.

This isn't fanaticism..Its applying big time pro lever sound projection to a small venue. Anyone who has been to a concert can understand the importance hearing the source material DIRECTLY and not reflected of the walls,floors, and ceilings.

The Bose is not meant to be a PA for huge venues. It is meant to deliver the even sound a pro level arena system is designed to deliver. IN that regard it does exactly that.

In order for someone to poo poo the Bose system they have to be coming from the "Power and loud" school of good rather than "clarity everyone hears the same without reflection" good. Power does not trump quality and clarity of the source material unless it is in an array offering even distribution of content with the proper power applied to minimize inevitable reflections.




[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 05-23-2008).]

No I did not imply the Bose System is appropriate for a major concert.

No I did not say it is the future of All PA systems.

Diki likes to put words in ones mouth so he can succesfully debate against them indeed. He assumed as well that a prop PA could not be compared to the Bose becasue the speakers were not behind the player......Theres another stretch that I did not make.

All I claimed is Bose found a way to use great techniques that are routinely used in professional large venue situations to minimize reflections (which are the bane of good sound)and apply them to a SMALL OMB or duo situation.I never mentioned how they should be used in a dance club. or in a concert venue. I do know a DJ that uses the Bose and 4 B1s. He likes traveling light I suppose.

I will say this . The Bose is far far better then the Mackie 808s and the JBL MR12s we have collecting dust. But a 300 seat room is large for the wifes gigs.

Nor am I denigrating other systems..I have found you simply do not need to carry a roadie and a small truck to transport and set up your sound system. You can achieve better sonic results for everyone (not just the select few receiving direct sound) and carry it all in Mitsubishi Spyder. There is not a whole lotta compromise one has t make with the Bose to enjoy the portability and clear sound they offer.

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 05-23-2008).]

Hi guys, looks like I am reviving a bit of an old thread, but anyhow, he is my little bit.


Personally, I am using JBL system prx512m tops/VRX 918s bottoms, driven via DBX Drive Rack PA, and depending on the venue my system can range from 2x 12's to 2x 12's and 1 x 18 all the way up to 3x12s per side and 2 to 4 subs(full 3way system)....

I have heard the bose system and for what it is its quite amazing, however, I do believe the JBL system has a little more flexibilty when it comes to varying venues, perhaps not so much the smaller ones, which is where I would love to have the bose, but for a very modular versatile system I must say the JBL is a winner.

Just throwing one out there for comments? but if anyone is running a 2way system with the 512m/vrx918 combo , where do you guys like to have your crossovers set?

I bought the prx 515's last year. They are amazing!!!! i wanted to fall in love with the Bose so bad but My heart wouldn't let it.

If your looking for that boom in your face sound, especially if you want to see your drums and bass come alive.

------------------
God Bless,
Mikey

www.mikeymaestro.com
www.myspace.com/kidconcert
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