Any one can shed any light on a comparison between the 2 ?

I personally use 2100 and am quite happy with the ease of use as compared to the PA50 (tried it a while ago). The Korg voices sound better, key feel is almost same, and so are the styles...actually the 2100 seems to have better styles....

Anything else ?

The 2100, in my opinion, is far better for playing live. I had a PA80 and I did like some of the sounds. However, with the 2100, you will get mic input and a vocal harmonizer that works, plus fills, intros and endings that are many times better than the Korg. You'll find thousands of free styles for the PSR also.
If you can't tell the difference in the key feel, then I think it's a no-brainer. Most people prefer the Korg keys.
DonM

Sorry, but I think "key feel" problem is not the more important problem in Yamahas keys, but the second one.

Yamaha's key feel is bad, of course. It affects feeling and sensitivity you put in your rendition, but it doesn't make errors in playing.

But it is not the most important bad thing.

The worse one is that Yamahas keys are SMALLER. That is, from a C key to next C key, distance is shorter than any other kb, and any piano.

If you play without to see keys, if you make chords without to see the keys, and you are used to play not yamaha keyboards or pianos, smaller octaves in yamahas may be a great problem for your hands: you are going to play wrong keys because your hands are used to play another octaves distance.

I realized that about the yams also. Korg all the way.

Yup ... I couldn't (WOULDN'T) do it !
I like
BIG
KEYS,
and I cannot lie !

If you can get past the keys of the Yamahas (I do and lots of people in this forum is ok as well, ask Scott Yee), then Yamaha is a no brainer IMO.

I tried PA80 for a week and got frustrated with the navigation (look, I own arrangers for 17 years, all different brands) and KORG is by far the most confusing. I owned KORG i30 for 3 years and disliked it intensely. Yamaha is like a breath of fresh air (although I owned it beforehand as well). Just go to GC and bring it home , only you can decide. If you don't like it return it within 30 days. For expensive item, I would not take a chance of not being able to return it. You will not know its fault unless you play it for 2 weeks no matter how many people say things to you !!! Only you know what is important for yourself.

Please!!!!!!!!! Not the key stuff again--it's really gettin' old.

Gary

the key stuff again?

I think it is not really gettin' old.

Perhaps, speaking about it more times and by more people will be the only way for Yamaha make finally the good decision: good key feel, and specially, normal (not smaller) size keys.

Yamaha players deserve be considered (by Yamaha) having normal size hands, not little hands as if they were children.

Yamaha, we are not children!.
We don't need toys keys!.

You other brothers can't deny!



Oh, I thought this was another sing the next line thread like....Scott Yee's.......birthday............song......

Oh forget it!

mike

Korg probably has the most intense ( maybe confusing too ) OS of any of them, but it also allows for far more editing and customization than anything else on the arranger spectrum. Yamaha is more WYSIWYG. Depends on your priorities. Sometimes that can vary for me depending on what I want to make my board do.

PSR's are probably easier for some users to navigate and make sound good " right out of the box ". Both have good sounds and styles, but while the Korg styles overall sounded more expressive to me, they only have 2 fills per style and on a few styles they don't seem to match up very well to the main variations.

Like a few others, the comparisons stop when I touch the keys, pitch / mod wheels, and buttons. Korg keys are full sized and feel like they are on par with any pro synth or workstation with synth action. PSR's aren't. They feel flimsy to me and they are smaller. If your used to playing keys of any other kind, both the size and feel can affect your expression. I guess it depends on what one is doing and what one is used to. When I'm playing a few chords or simple melodies from the average cover tune, while playing along with the arranger function, it usually doesn't mean much to me. When I'm pushing the envelope to the limits of my abilities, it means a lot. I just won't put up with cheap feeling keys, wheels, and knobs, so I can't recommend any PSR's. Doesn't make me right OR wrong, just the way I see it. Like Bluebird and few others, I hope Yamaha takes some of this in, and if anyone else disagrees or is tired of seeing it, so be it.


For me, it isn't about Korg or Yamaha, or anyone else, since I don't own any stock in any of them, my name isn't on the label, and I have never had a hand in developing any of these machines. Nothing is EVER a "No Brainer" when it comes to your personal approach to expressing what is inside of you musically. There isn't a clear cut right and wrong way. What makes you most comfortable to work with and "sings" to you when YOUR hands are on it is all that matters Michael, no matter what anyone else tells you.

AJ

Don M was perfect.
I just can add the easy navigation of Yamaha.

Chico

So ----

The "bottom line" answer should be "try it yourself and see which one YOU like: !!

The real picture is that each person likes something different - therefore, when someone asks for opinions on the "best", there will be a multitude of answers - I don't see how that will help anyone (except to narrow the field to some degree). Yes, we've been through the "which has the best keys" thing several times (at least since I've been on board) and it's always the same answers by the same people - nothing changes. Just like AJ said, it doesn't make him "right or wrong" that he likes a particular keyboard's keys - it's just what fits him best.

So check them out and see what "fits" you best. Maybe you'll like "mushy" keys as I do - or, maybe not !!

vc

------------------
Vern

THANKS TO ONE AND ALL....

I respect everybodys opinion; what I feel is :

2100-Easy menu and direct access / PAxx-??2100-good voices and well preset EQs', and other OTS / PAxx ?
2100-very good styles with auto fill-ins and multipad stabs etc / PAxx ??
2100-comparitivly bad key feel, smaller keys, / PAxx ??
Also:
2100/PAxx
what is the reliability factor, support, freebies, paid extras ,cost Vs. gain, re-sale value.

Also IMO people who use arrangers are probabally those who have moved on to keyboards but have been other instrumentalists earlier, like guitarists perhaps. Not the kind to have grown as a pianist or played weighted keys all along.I believe that an arranger should do what it is supposed to do ..ie. ARRANGE well. Since MIDI is available it wouldnt be so hard or costly if a weighted keys keyboard(basic piece) is hooked up to the arranger so that the purpose of the arranger is served to the fullest and the player is happy !!
Just a thought coz key feel is a personal preferance that I respect....(i would not want to play a guitar that has a gap of 1/2 inch between the strings and fretboard !!).

Like I said ...arrangers are ment to arrange and lets compare arrangers for what they are supposed to do..

Thanks again to all... I appreciate your replies and respect your opinions...


Best regards everybody
Michael

I have no problems with either the Yamaha Key Feel nor the Yamaha Key Size.

I can appreciate that the key feel could be a big stopper, especially for pianists.

However I find the key size debate much more amazing - its not that much different; in fact I only noticed once I started using a PSR630 as my "Top" keyboard and even then only because I lined up the left hand edges of my two keyboards and then noticed the difference at the other end.

I agree on this, as 25 yr guitar/drummer, who dabbled on kb's in the mid 80's IMO I just couldnt get into the heavy keys, not too mention some confusing navagating, even with the manual,some of which to this day I still havent found out

Guess like anything you have to spend alot of time on it, and to me the most important reason is personal preference,If we were all the same this planet would really be a dull place. play what u like, its the person behind the instrument, that makes the music.

also since Im in the market for an arranger kb, I have tried out almost all of them, and gotta agree with the others Yamaha's although the keys are smaller,(not a prob for myself),are by far very easy to use. and the prices arent too high either.

so for those reasons and from reading discussions like this and other sites a yamaha tyros seems to be the one that fits my taste and budget.

Glad I found this site very informative

Peace




[This message has been edited by zipgun (edited 03-02-2004).]

In my particular case, nothing could be further from the truth. I started out on organs back in the mid 60's and moved over to synths as they became affordable enough and widely available, somewhere around the very early 1980s. I never played anything close to weighted until I got my Hohner Clavinet and soon after it my Yamaha CP25, which had very heavy action but sounded magnificent.

After giving up playing in live bands somewhere in the late 80's, the early arrangers became a curiosity to me as well as potential tools so that I could continue to practice with something other than a metronome or drum machine in order to keep my timing sharp. I wound up getting an early Technics model in around 1989.

I didn't look at any others again until the late 90's, and I was surprised at how far they had come. I thought the arranger of today might be an excellent tool for composing, and in some ways it has been, giving me a groundwork to start from. I've also used one for doing solo or duet live work. Trying to use one in composing has given me additioanl insight in several areas, that I may not otherwise have had.


Today, I am looking at playing in a real band again, and it appears that a good opportunity has come my way. The guitarist is a life long friend, and also one of the original members of my first band, from way back in the mid 70s. We always played well off one another.

Arrangers did not progress quite in the direction that I had hoped that they might, ( with more emphasis on having real time varied rythyms based somewhat on algorithims like a karma might do, but with more control like an arranger does ). While they are very good tools for some players, in general they do not always fit very well into my style of writing or playing music. I think that maybe I am a little too toward the "avant - garde " in what I do, but that is part of the style I'm most happy playing in. That said, my PA80 will remain here mainly for it's sounds and also if I ever wanted to do something solo again, but after that, I am pretty much done with arangers at this point.

I've learned a good bit from this forum and have come to know a few of the musicians pretty well because of it. In particular, reading about FLR and his computer based system really opened some new doors for me that I otherwise may have never even found. The analog softsynths in particular, along with some other computer based synths and modules, have virtually and even literally in some ways put me back where I wanted to be 20+ years ago when I couldn't afford most of the stuff it emulates.

I've enjoyed some of the stories and things I've read here as well. That said, I don't have a whole lot left to contribute to the arranger realm of keyboards, unless some new technologies and features appear somewhere down the road that might bring me back to the fold, so I'll stop by and read when I can, but at this point, in my life, time has become a rather precious commodity, and with what little that I do seem to have of it, I am going to try to use it as best I can to concentrate on making the music that suits me and the tools that can best help get me there.

I wish all of you and your families well, and I will stop to read here when I can. I hope that music will always be one of the great joys of your lives.


AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 03-02-2004).]

I am, and always have been, a Yamaha devotee (currently PSR 2000 -- excellent board). I was recently in Sam Ash and I gave the PA80 a brief test-drive. It was *frustratingly* difficult to use, but I must admit that some of the sounds (including the piano) were simply outstanding -- superior to the PSR 2000 hand-down. The styles as well had a particular "real" sound which I found pleasing. It's hardly surprising, given that the price of the PA80 is nearly twice that of the PSR 2000, but I was impressed nonetheless. I'm still in the Yamaha camp though. After producing music for a CD and performing dozens of gigs with it, I can confirm that the 2000 is an excellent machine.

It's strange that you picked out the piano sound on the PA80 as outstanding. That's the one sound that most everyone else thinks is very weak, and that is very good on the PSR 2000.
I suppose it all depends on what we like to hear.
DonM

I actually liked the PA80 piano better than the Yamaha too, and I'm not a Korg piano fan usually. It's more "playable". The dynamics or some other "something" is there that's missing from the Yamaha.

As far as I can tell, the grand piano on the Tyros is the same as on the 9kpro .... I DO like that one.

I find that reaction really interesting. I have a two keyboard stand with a Pa80 on top and a Tyros on bottom. With about three pieces of information, ie, 1)what button to push to get into style play mode, 2) that the light on the style select category button tells you whether you are selecting the style listed on the top or bottom of the style select button (or if both are lit at the same time what is on the hard drive it there is one) 3) that the four buttons at the bottom of the screen are the equivalent of the Yamaha OTS buttons (Korg calls them the STS ie, Single Touch Settings)where the sync start button is (it's plainly labled). With that much info you can play through all the styles in the machine using the factory settings for OTS.

I also prefer the Tenor Sax, the trumpet and in particular the Sweet Harmonica on the Pa80 over the equivalent voices on the Tyros. However, there is nothing even close to the Tyros Sweet Oboe anywhere on the Pa80. I prefer the B3 simulation on the Tyros to the equivalent on the Pa80.

However, I REALLY like having 658 styles at my finger tips without having to do anything other than push a few buttons to get to them. I don't play "out" except at church where they supply the organ, but if I did, I would probably use the Tyros. It has better intros and endings more suited to the styles and more of them than the Pa80.

I really like being able to have both of them, but, if I absolutely could have only one, at this point it would be the Tyros (and yes, that big beautiful screen has a lot to do with it).

Tom

------------------
Bigger is not always better

Marck,
regarding the *frustration* you had finding your way around the PA80......

I think your reaction can proablably apply to most of us who have gotten used to a particular vendors' OS implementation..... I've played Korg, Roland and Yammy over the years (among others, and not just their keys either) and find switching from one to the other amazingly frustrating.

I find Rolands keboards to be the most intuitive - i.e. the ability to sit down sight unseen and dabble with settings using markings on the buttons and menu info - with Yamaha being the LEAST intuitive. Remember.. IMHO..!

Once you get used to any format, navigating another OS (arranger or not) becomes a chore. A couple of years ago (I owned both Roland and Korg boards back then) I bought a Motif, right after they came out. Had it for 29 days and returned it.... couldn't get the hang of how to navigate/construct and do simple things like pattern play, midi file playback, and so on. I was thoroughly disenchanted. I've also had similr experiences w/ Yammy keys back in the EX5 days too... I did LOVE the keys on the Mo tho'... best on the market for the price IMHO...

Bottom line is - with all due respect to indivdual opinions - take the seller up on that 30 day no-questions asked return policy. You can REALLY try a number of boards using that approach. In your case Yammy works, in mine it didn't, but a few minutes of noodling in GC should not a bad board make [ ]....

Steve

Just wanted to put input on the Korg. I have been playing arranger keyboards for 12 years. I have a Yamaha psr 740 & a Ketron XD9 and I just bought a Korg PA 60 little brother to the PA 80.

Here is the a very small problem with the PA 60. When you hit the fill button it is instant no matter what beat of the bar. Also the bass root note comes in instantly making the fill sound out of sync. This is good & this is bad. It is good because it is precise. It is bad because you have to keep a count going on in your head.

But I will have to say the Korg sounds are awesome! The piano-sax-sweet harmonica and guitars are GOOD!

This is only my opinion and I am glad we have different choices. It would be a dull world if everything was one color.
PIANOMAN

Pianoman,
You say that when you hit the fill button it is instant no matter what beat of the bar (into Pa60), and that it is good because it is precise, but it is bad because you have to keep a count going on in your head.

Well, the same is into PSR2000. When you hit a variation button, the new variation (or the fill) is instant too, no matter what beat of the bar.

I remember Rolands work in other way. When you push the fill button, or variation button, the new vatiation starts to next bar, not at the moment you hit the button. I think this way is a lot better, because you haven't to keep a count in your head.

I don't know if this Yamaha or Korg way of working may be modified. Is it possible to set PSR2000 for working as a Roland in this sense (that is, pushing a variation button makes the change starts to next bar)?

Thanks

[This message has been edited by Bluebird (edited 03-08-2004).]

Bluebird
I agree with you about the problem of keeping a count in your head sucks.There is no way of changing this. I have spoken to the keyboard manager where I bought the Korg and he says this is the way Korg set up the fills.The "BIG" problem is the bass guitar note. It is "ACCENTED". This makes the fill sound out of sync when you hit fill button at the wrong time. I hope this makes sense to you.

Also I owned a Roland G600 arrannger. It waited until the next bar to put in a fill. It was smooth.

Hope I have not made this to confussing.
PIANOMAN

Really, this little gadget was one I liked more in Rolands. They are so smooth when they wait until the next bar to put in a fill.

Afterwards, no problem when you hit fill button at the wrong time. Always, the keyboard wait for you until the next bar.

I sorry Korg can't modify it. But what about Yamahas? Is there any way to modify it into yamahas?

Actually, I like the way Yamaha does it--you can hit partial fills depending on what part of the beat you press the button. I really don't have to consciously keep the beat in my head, I just "feel" it. Probably has to do with playing them for so long. For the fill to start on the next measure, you hit the button on the last beat of the previous measure.
DonM

Dear Michel,
Before you jup i PA-50 just check this thread.
www.irishacts.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6502

A Well Wisher.

Dear Michel,
Before you jup i PA-50 just check this thread.
www.irishacts.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6502

A Well Wisher.