Having owned & auditioned my Motion Sound KP-100S:
http://www.motion-sound.com/keypro_amplifiers.htm

for a week now, which includes utilizing it on several gigs, I think I've finally found the idea compact lightweight self powered all in one stereo PA speaker system suitable for those small- medium gigs.

Before the new Motion Sound stereo Key Pro series speakers became available this year, if you wanted impressive stereo sound, you'd have to drag along two speakers. Many current keyboard sounds rely hevily on stereo effects to show them off to full effect. Unfortunately, simply mixing the right and left channels together to a single mono output produces stereo 'phase cancellation', which results in inferior (thin) sound. I found the 'LIVE Grand' acoustic piano and several other essential voices on both my Yamaha Tyros & PSR2000 to suffer from this when going out mono.

I had initially considered getting the larger KP-200S, but at 55 lbs, it was out of the question. I wanted a lightweight 'small as possible' unit to insure both quick & EZ setup/breakdown. I opted for (with a bit of initial reluctance) the substantially lighter (38 lb) and more compact KP-100S instead, though it's only got an 8" woofer and 100 Watt amp output, vs a 10" woofer and 200 watt output on the KP-200S.

When the KP-100S arrived at my door, I was surprised just how small & compact it was, though it did seem a bit heavy 'for its size'. When I initially tested it out, I placed it up on a chair behind me, and though the sound was clean & clear, and produced plenty of volume to spare, it sounded a bit harsh in the mid range, and weak (missing) in the low bass frequencies. Raising the bass EQ knob didn't really solve the problem. After re-positioning the unit , placing it on a small amp stand: Ultimiate Support model - Genesis Amp150: http://www.ultimatesupport.com/genesis_amp.html , with the KP-100S angled up at approx. 38 degrees, the sound improved dramatically, eliminating the harsh mid range and improving the bass response signifcantly. Adding the Yamaha Tyros' subwoofer unit to the mix improves the sound even MORE, filling out the frequency range with an impressive bottom end. The enhancer really opens up (spreads) the sound eliminating the impression that the music is coming from a box and some people in the audience have even commented that it appears that different instruments (piano, drums, bass, horns, etc) appear to be coming from different spots in the room rather than from the KP-100S itself. I'm also happy to report that the enhancer does not appear to detrimentally affect my vocals when set to the normal (not to high) position.

For my nursing home & smaller venues (less than 35-40 people), I only need to take the KP-100S along with 27 lb Yamaha Tyros (no Tyros subwoofer or satellites), and it provides very pleasing results. This configuration is especially suitable for acoustic sets with vocals highlighted by acoustic piano comping/playing along with auto accomp bass & drums. According to John Fisher (Motion Sound), the KP-100S & KP-200S were specifically designed to reproduce the acoustic piano and I think this is a success. For a deeper fuller bottom-end electric bass and overall richer sound, I can easily plug my small Tyros subwoofer (17 lb) into the Tyros. Is now no longer essential for me to utilize the Tyros satellites anymore now, because with the KP-100S, I'm able to successfully monitor the KP-100S mix while playing the KB. My Tyros subwoofer is also easy to transport now because I installed a convenient carrying handle on top & 4 rubber feet on the bottom.

Transporting & setting up now takes no longer than my simple PSR2000 setup did. For larger venues, I continue to utilize (and recommend) a pair of Electro Voice SxA100's. I'm now a very happy camper. I highly recommend both the Motion Sound KP-100S and (of course) the Yamaha Tyros.

Both DanO and the folks at Motion Sound (John & Aloni Fisher) provide excellent sales & customer support. Many thanks to them for arranging the KP-100S to be drop shipped to my door. If you're interested in the Motion Sound KP-100S, I recommend getting it from Dan O'Neil. His email address is keyboardcity@yahoo.com.

Scott

Scott,
Im glad to hear your enjoying your new Motion Sound amp. I tried one and passed on it due to the lack of bottom end bass due to the small 8" or 10" size speakers on both models. I need more low end.
Are you using your subwoofer in addition to the amp?



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 04-24-2003).]

Great comments Scott ! Dano

That's some very helpful comments Scott - but I echo the question: do you not find that the KP-100s delivers enough bass on it's own for the rooms you into to use it in? I find that the KP-200s has an incredible amount of bass even in large venues but maybe that's just a reflection of it's overall power. I have powered subs but I haven't needed them with the KP-200s so far. It is great having a one-piece stereo amp that covers so many needs though... glad it's working out for you, but I'm still curious about your thoughts on the KP-100s' bass response in live use.

Donny & the Pro:

Yes, the weak bass was the first thing I noticed too & I initially had thought I'd be returning the KP-100S. The KP-100S (used alone) is definitely not suitable for large rooms or dance music, where a lot of bass is essential, but for my small intimate lounge gigs, singing & playing acoustic jazz standards, with the auto accomp drums & acoustic bass fullfilling only a supporting role, the KP-100S shines for its clean natural (unhyped) sound. I had the opportunity to speak (at length) with John Fisher (owner & developer of the Motion Sound Key Pro) and he told me that both the KP100S and KP-200S were specifically designed for reproducing keyboard sounds on a 61 note synth. I was very surprised to hear him tell me (that in his comparison tests) that the larger 10" KP-200S doesn't provide much more low bass than the smaller 8" KP-100S does, and that BOTH the KP-100S and KP-200S were not designed to deliver real low frequencies. He said that what the larger KP-200S offers over the KP-100S is primarily: 1) More Volulme and 2) inpdependent EQ control of each input channel. John Fisher added, that by switching out the speakers to a heavier type, that this would improve the bass response, but that this would significantly add to the weight of the unit.

I find that whatever bass may be lacking in the KP-100S alone, is easily solved (in my case) by just taking along my small Tyros Subwoofer box (plugged directly into the Tyros), providing plenty of rich full bass to spare. So far, I've both taken the KP-100S out alone, as well as (on other occasions) augmented it with the Tyros subwoofer. So far, I notice that if I don't have the subwoofer right there to compare, that I don't seem to be missing it. I suppose only time will tell how often I'll be needing to take the Subwoofer along. I'll keep you posted.

I've discovered that the KEY to the KP-100S sounding good is in its placement. I've found that sitting directly on the floor or too high off the floor are both bad, and that the best sound is achieved with the unit sitting on a small amp stand sitting 6 inches off the floor and angled up 40 degrees with the enhancer set to around 7. This arrangement best projects the sound into the room without the impression that the sound is coming from a box, but instead giving the impression that each individual instrument (piano, solo instrument, bass, and drums) is coming from a different spot in the room. I also found that this setup to provide a smoother overall sound as well.

In conclusion, the KP-100S is definitely not the best speaker for everyone here, but it fits the bill for providing natural acoustic keyboard reproduction (in stereo) and in a small compact package suitable for those small acoustic lounge venues.

I'm really anxious to get impressions from others (including Larry Levin) who've purchased the KP-100S and had the opportunity to audition it in their home/studio as well as on the job.

Scott

Scott,

In all honesty..... dont you think you could just take one EV sxa100 and get the same small room sound if not better?

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 04-24-2003).]

In ONE word . . . NO !

I 'of COURSE' tested this out and compared going out my Tyros to the KP-100S vs going out to a single EV SxA100 speaker, and the KP-100S sound wins "hands down".

Donny: I'm really surprised at your question considering the fact that I thought I had gone over this in detail in several other threads. In addition, I would have thought that especially since you had the opportunity to audition the KP-100S in a store that the salesman would have highlighted the Motion Sound unique stereo benefits as well.

In a nutshell: Stereo keyboard output (L/R) mixed & sent to a single mono speaker output (such as a single EV SxA100) results in degraded sound due to stereo efx phase cancellation. The KP-200S & KP-100S speakers were designed to completely eliminate this problem.

Scott

Scott & Pro... Since the MS-KP is best positioned at an upward angle, is the sound dispersement not dependant on ceiling height? In fact, would some of the effect be lost in a room wigh a very high ceiling?

Scott,

It was just a question, no need to be surprised . I guess I'm just used to playing small-med gigs with 12-15" speakers giving me the Bottom end I need for a full sound.
Im sure as a pro you know what works for you and your audiences. Good Luck with the unit.
Lately a "Mine is Better Then Yours" aura is in the air, or maybe its my imagination .

Jam On!!

Interesting point about the amplifier stand, Scott. I had been using my KP-200S for about a month sitting directly on the carpeted floor of my 10ft x 10ft studio (think more along the lines of "spare bedroom" rather than the studios displayed on this site from Pro and Roel!) The bass was great (after some tweaking thanks to RJ Miller) but I couldn't really get a great overall mix of bass, mids, and trebles.

My Quik-Lok BS-317 amp stand arrived and I moved the whole setup into our living room. It's about 20x30 with wood floors with half of the ceiling at about 30 feet and the other half at 10 feet. I put the amp on the stand, cranked up the Millenium and was staggered by the difference! I found the sweet spot to be almost identical to Scott's: Amp stand at about 45 degrees, bottom stand bracket at about 8 inches off the floor, which puts the center of the amp at about 18 inches off the floor. Not only is this aesthetically pleasing, but it sounds incredible! There is a definite loss of bass with this approach (as opposed to sitting on the floor) but I compensated for this with the built-in eq. The mix is much better. I had the input gain up quite high (around 8) and the overall volume of the amp at around 5. This was too loud to speak comfortably in the room and be heard.
I had the expander at 0, or off, because the Millenium isn't a true stereo instrument and the expander made it seem like it was sitting in a reverb chamber in a cave. By the way, this is what it is supposed to do - it won't take a mono signal and expand it into a beautiful stereo sound. I am still working on getting my XD3 and when I do I can really do some testing on the expander effect.

Overall, I feel that the amp needs to sit on an angled amp stand at about 8 inches off the floor. I feel that I can monitor my playing more truly in this manner while providing the audience with the best sound.

I am definitely inexperienced, but I know what sounds good to me and am very happy with this amplifier. (My 80-year old father says it sounds great too. So there ya go!)

No... and let me clarify what is going on with the KP's: they have a built-in stereo phase inverter that is called a "stereo expander" or sometimes marketed as a "3D Spatial Processor". You can find these devices in lots of places, mostly as add-on units for home and car stereos. It is an aural trick - by variably reversing the phase of the signal the sounds that are normally panned towards the center are panned to the outside and vice versa (you must hear it for this not to sound like gibberish). The sound "expands" when this happens and it actually sounds like the speakers are invisibly being moved into a wider field of separation. Too much of the effect sounds like you've moved the amp into another room altogether. Room acoustics will not have any real impact on the effectiveness of the expansion.

I think this is a misperception, especially in this case where Scott was not comparing his new KP to anyone else's speaker or amp choice. I chose the larger KP-200s but I don't think Scott takes offense when I ask him if he's missing the bass that my amp seems to have in abundance. He would if I dropped it on his foot maybe! I am getting great ideas in the "Budget Studio" thread where several people have posted pictures and comparisons of their equipment in the spirit of learning from one another, with no one-upsmanship even in the least. Some ideas simply ARE better than others and if I can learn from anything from anyone here, I am the better for it.

Donny: In adding to the Pro's remarks: Please don't let your 'imagination' get the best of you . Believe me, there was absolutely no intention on my part of projecting a: "Mine is Better then Yours" attitude whatsoever. If you thought this, then I certainly apologize, and welcome someone to provide evidence of this.

I think I made it quite clear that I felt the KP-100S not the best speaker solution for everyone or every situation. I accept its limitations (weak bass) but appreciate its advantages (small size/weight, accurate clean & natural sounding stereo voice reprduction) for those small 'acoustic lounge' venues where more enhanced bass isn't required.

Donny: My surprise was ONLY over the fact that you seemed not to understand the principal 'feature' of Motion Sound Key Pro speakers: it's ability to provide enhanced stereo reproduction from a 'single' box.

Ok, I think there's been way too much tension around here on the forum lately. I hope we can all clear the air, move on and all remain friends in our common goal to further the interest and advancement of arranger keyboard music making.

Scott

It seems that such high praise for the stereo effects of the KP 100 makes it a contender for the perfect keyboard speaker... but, many of us really want that strong tight bass you can best get from a subwoofer.

The KP has a subwoofer out, right? A "lightweight" subwoofer (under 40 lbs) would be the ideal companion for this speaker. I there such a thing? My web search says NO. George, anybody?

Glenn

GlennT: No, far from 'perfect' keyboard speaker for sure, but this setup just happens to address my needs for my specific intimate 'acoustic type gig' venue setup.




Yes, the KP-100S includes a subwoofer output. The lightweight subwoofer solution that works (for me) for those small room situations weighs 17 lbs. This is the optional subwoofer portion of the Tyros speakers (TRS-MS01) I had purchased with the Yamaha Tyros, and I can plug it directly into the Tyros. I find the 40 watt Tyros subwoofer a nice match for the KP-100S, providing all the bass I'll need for the 100watt output of the KP-100S. For situations where I'm willing to take out TWO speakers and TWO speaker stands, my preference still goes to (by far) a pair of EV SxA100's. Obviously, there's NO perfect speaker for every given situation. Geez, all this gets so complicated. and I just want to make music.

Scott

Scott and The Accordionist:
Are you positioning the amp BEHIND you?
How far?

Thanks for your reply.

RJM

Well, kind of. I place the amp behind me but since I stand when I play I probably spend 50% of the time with the amp behind me and the other 50% looking at the amp! (that darn 15 foot Millenium cable gives me too much freedom)

Never really thought about walking behind the amp and taking a listen. I'll try that tonight.

Did KP amps use this very same efx from this site? This might be a cheaper alternative.
http://www.crateaudio.com/products/studio_modules/SM2-SRS.html

There's many stereo phase invertors on the market so it'd be hard to say exactly which is used in the KP's, and it isn't rocket science so the engineers at Motion Sound likely just made up their own... but the biggest selling feature with the KP amps isn't just the stereo expander or any one particular feature - it's having a single, good-sounding dedicated keyboard amplifier with everything you need to pull off a gig in one box that is getting the rave reviews. As much as I like my KP-200s, it does not sound better nor have as many features as a full PA system would, and I think most other KP owners agree with that and will keep their PA's for when necessary. I don't need a large PA system for 90%+ of my gigs so the KP fits a niche I didn't know I had until I got one. It may be cheaper to cobble together a PA with all the KP has and it may even sound better when complete, but it won't be as handy or cute!

Well guys and gals, I had the opportunity to try the KP-200S a few days ago, and though it has lots of features, it was not what I had hoped. Without the use of a subwoofer, it does not have sufficient botttom end for mid size jobs. Granted, it weighs less than the 90-pound speakers I'm packing around, but at 55 pounds, it's still not in the lightweight category. When you're used to playing with a full PA system, wide band EQ and 15-inch speakers, it's tough to find something that provides the sounds you have been enjoying through the years. Consequently, the search continues to lighten the load and still have that gut thumpin' bass. Next, I'll be listening to Barbetta Sona 32, which I sincerely believe will achieve the goal. It only weighs in at 36-1/2 pounds, uses 15-inch woofers, a 4X10 constant directity horn tweeter and packs a walloping 450 watts. From the spec sheet, this one may be what the doctor ordered.

Oh, I almost forgot. For the folks that go on about size and price, I'm hoping mine is smaller than yours and I don't care what it cost--just as long as it gets the job done.

Cheers,

Gary

Gary,

You wont be dissapointed with the
Sona 32c's....
just ask Tom Cavanaugh

Hey Gary ,

We additioned the amp pretty high off the floor . Perhaps we can give it another try when my new store opens , but audition a little closer to the manufacturer's recommendations .

Dano

I'll be more than happy to do that Dan--and again, good luck with the new store. I'm sure you'll be successful.

Cheers,

Gary

Scott,
Its been a few weeks now... I would assume you have more then few gigs under you belt using this amp......how is it working out so far?

I'm finding the KP-100S the idea PA for all my smaller acoustic combo style gigs (less than 40 people) and which usually requires quick setup/breakdown. It's especially good used with no onboard speaker keyboards as the KP-100S & KP-200S design can provide both the sound to the audience as well as stereo monitoring to the performer as well. I'm finding the bass response on the KP-100S sufficient for intimate acoustic lounge music in smaller rooms. For added bass omph, I just grab the the Tyros subwoofer (with built in handle) and place it under the kb. The KP-100S performs double duty as an 'onstage monitor' for larger venues with the EV SxA100's acting as the mains. I'm really happy with the versatility my current kb/pa setup offers.

Scott

Thats great Scott,

Good to hear your enjoying your MotionSound KP-100s Amp. I'm curious to know if voice id affected by the stereo phase FX.

AFter re-adjusting (lowering) the vocal efx level on the Tyros, I don't experience any vocal problems coming from the KP-100S when the KP-100S expander is set to an appropriate (not overly exagerrated) level. - Scott

Re. some of the talk here about phase inversion.

Some years ago I heard of a simple trick (I think it was called the Hafler effect, or something) where if a third speaker was placed in the centre between the two outer speakers and this third speaker was wired by taking the + from one side and the - from the other side, it would result in the centre speaker outputting the 'out-of-phase' information, thereby creating a centre channel of sorts. Is this what the MS does?
Has anyone tried this?

Hey Big Red,

Yep, it's called the Hafler effect or Out Of Phase Stereo or OOPS.

Never tried it with a keyboard setup but I use to do this in my cars. Back in the old days when they still put a center speaker in the middle of the front dash. My first car, a 69 Olds Cutlass, I had a Craig PowerPlay 8-track, Big Boomers in the rear deck and then I would wire the front speaker by sending just the '+' sides to the front speaker.

Nice little trick. Some folks think it was better sounding than using fancy electronics to get the same effect.

mike

The Hafler effect was used by stereo manufacturers during the mid 1950s to produce a mid channel during crossover (panning) from one channel to another. The end result was a smooth, flowing transition between channels that still surpasses today's electronic panning effects. Essentially, the center speaker is connected between both positive lines of the left and right channels. Though I haven't tried this with the keyboard, now that the old timers on the forum have jogged the cobwebs of my mind, I'll have to hook that up when I get back from tonight's gig.

Thanks for the memories guys and gals,

Gary

I've read the posts and find them very enlightening. I want your opinions about using this amp for what I'll call medium size gigs... dance clubs from 50-200 persons, in a five piece band (standard config...guitar,bass, drummer, keys, singer)
I'll be using this amp as my main keyboard amp, no vocals running through it.


Thanks guys and gals

[This message has been edited by daveher999 (edited 06-04-2003).]

Dave,
Buy the kp 200s.
Terry

------------------
jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Gary,

I consider myself an old timer (52)but I've never heard of connecting the + outputs from the l and r speakers to a third speaker. Please let us know how it turns out. Don't ruin your outputs!

Tom

MS is slightly different. MS is a stereo recording technique, used for a lot of things (an example is a stereo recording of a concert or a orchestra).
In MS there are 2 different microphones: The "M" microphonem wich a simple cardiod poitoing to the center of the "ensemble" you want to record
and the S, wich is a 8 figure microphone, pointing to both left and right sides of the "M" microphone and recording one of the sides in phase, and the other side out of phase. (M and S are coincident microphones)

While listening to a MS recording, you must have a "decoder": it sums both M and S signals (inverting the phase of the S the aquire both sides) resulting on a Stereo Recording.

I could explain a lot better the way that MS works, but I think I was quick and clear.

Luis Santos

Tom,
I beat you by 11 years, and in 1959, while I was a kid in the U.S. Navy, I purchased a Motorola stereo, one of those huge pieces of furniture that measures 8 feet from end to end. It used that exact system. Ironically, after all these years, the thing still works and I gave it to one of my sister's grandchildren. They had a party, spilled a soda into the amp, and that was the end of the system. I havn't had the opportunity to experiment with hooking the same system up from the keyboard amps yet, but with luck I'll give it a shot in the next few weeks and post the information.

Cheers,

Gary