It looks to me like this new keyboard is gonna have less sounds than the VA series. I dont mind as long as the MB is more than the VA 7's 48mb...

It looks like the controversial touch screen will be remaining.

Any comments ?

What's controversial about the touch screen? I was able to test it at NAMM on one of their superduper AT-90S Atelier Organs. Wow! Loved the sound! Loved the styles, too! And the touch screen seemed to work real well on that one at least.
ev

Evangelical,
Most of the pros on this board feel it's to cumbersome for live playing, were you need to go thru to many screens to access functions. I don't play live, but still prefer buttons to touch screens. The more separate function buttons the better.
Starkeeper

Starkeepers is right.... A touch screen is nice to use when you're playing with a band or group, but if you're a solo musician, a touch screen can really get in the way especially if functions you use that should have a button on the face panel, have them within several menues on the touch screen. I know a lot of people who have korg Tritons, and they all say that they never use them on solo gigs where they need to do a lot of realtime changes...

Squeak

I love my touch screen and I'm going to experiment to determine how difficult it is to use in a live setting. I went to Walmart and they used a touch, I checked in at e-ticket at LAX via touch, my friend's lathe has a touch, I went to Office Max and they used a touch, I came home and microwaved and now the local store incorporated a touch......and everytime I watch, it reminds me of my keyboard...and that is a good thing.
Zuki

It's a good thing till you have a split second to make an adjustment "on the fly" during a performance and you take your fingers off the keys just long enough to reach up and "STAB" at the screen ..... you just "slightly" miss your intended destination, and instead of turning the volume of the bass down, you've changed the rhythm from a slow bossa to a quick disco beat.

You've confused the dancers, raised your blood pressure, and you STILL don't know what's wrong!!! You frantically retouch, and retouch and now, the saxes are flutes, the strings are gongs and the room is befuddled!

In a panic, you have to shut down to regroup. You apologize, blame the gear, and reinforce the fact in everyones mind that we don't even have control over the intrument. It controls US, and we just follow the bouncing ball, like trained animals.

Now, of course I'm making this all up, but this is a blueprint for what KIND of disaster is prone in a live setting and why the touch screen is more likely to harm, than help.

At K-Mart, they have ALL DAY to push the right spot on the screen. At the airport, there is a convienient "BACK" button for when you screw up ..... there is NO back button that works fast enough to save your butt in a live situation. You have to fly, baby. It's all about ease and options.

Just something to think about from someone who LOVED the sound, but hated the navigation of the VA series arrangers.

That can happen with buttons too..

I had a gig few months ago, where I wanted to change the master EQ in my PSR2000 while the song was being played.

Rather than pressing the mixer setting button, I pressed the Demo button, they right next to eachother... and you can guess what happened.

I think the Demo button should be all the way on right or left as separate function.

touch screen is good for studio work, but for Live it is not so good, if there are NO physical buttons or knobs. look at the Roland VSynth for excellent use of touch screen and physical controls.

Also, the KORG i30 was pretty good too...

Shakil,
At least twice, I went to press the fill button and pressed the ending instead. There is no way to stop the ending. You have to stop and restart (no back button, just thinking would pressing exit help?), fortunately I was not playing live.
Starkeeper

Starkeeper, on all the Yamahas that I have had, pressing a Variation button twice quickly will stop the Ending and immediately go to the Variation. If you press the Variation button once, the Ending will finish and then will go to the Variation.
DonM

That's right, Shakil, it's exactly why I love my Korg i30. Yes, it has a touch screen, great for inital set-ups, etc., (all of which I have stored in C and D banks) but you can't beat the sliders for on-the-fly adjustments. I've never had a disaster on gigs in three years with it.
That's why I think Korg missed the boat somewhat when they brought out the Pa80. By itself, it's a better sounding board than the i30, but why they didn't keep the sliders is a mystery and a major gaffe.

DonM,
Thanks for the tip. Will try that again, if I accidentally hit the ending button.
Starkeeper

Starkeeper,
Made the same mistake myself.. (several time too)... The buttons should be a little farther apart.. As far as the demo buttons.. I think they should be far away from crucial function buttons on any keyboard.. Actually I think all demo songs should be on a disk, and that extra memory should be used for sounds and features... I had a synth once that had demos, but there was not a demo button on the keyboard anywhere.. There was demo disks, and you loaded the song into the sequencer.. What made this so awsome was that you could use the performance set and samples used for that demo song to do your own... You could clear the demo song and have fun with the performance.. Hey Bluezplayer, is the Motif set up that way? Didn't check on that one when I played it.... I assume it's still the same way as the previous EX models.. Does the Motif also have the factory reset on disks like the EX series?

Squeak

Squeak,
Totally agree that demos should be on disc. This still alows sales personell to demo the unit and allows more ROM space for styles and sounds, since ROM space is Soooo expensive (Starkeeper sarcasm).
Starkeeper

Wow,
With all the aforementioned blunders, I'm glad I'm using mine for studio and friends. With friends, the more mistakes, the more fun we all have.
By the way, I was watching Who's Line and Laura Hall usually plays a grand with the Korg i-30 on top. One song accidently sped up to an uncontrollable tempo while a musical skit was being performed and all hell broke loose. It was one of the funniest shows I've watched. Anybody see that one?
Zuki

Yeah Zuki, I saw that one, too ... my stomach hurt from laughing so hard. Who's Line is probably one of the funniest things on TV imo. By the way, do any of you play the Irish Drinking Song? Could be fun in a live gig. Maybe where Guinness is served

Thanks folks for clearing up the pros and cons on the touch screen issue! I didn't realize that some functions are burried so deep inside and hard to get to when I tried the AT-90S. And I didn't look to see if it has a Direct Access button like some of the Yamahas do. I just thought in some situations, especially when playing in the dark, the touch screen is really handy and it seemed to be quite responsive, too. But then again I only played around on the AT-90S for 10 minutes or so. Does anyone know how much that thing costs? Probably a fortune and a half...

[This message has been edited by Evangelical (edited 01-22-2003).]

Hmmmmmm. Here's a good idea where makers who use the touch screen could benefit.. Add a direct access button to the face like Yamaha does, but utilize the numeric keypad.. Have preset ones, and allow the user to customize their own as well.. This would eliminate some of the problems... Now that I think about it I would be very unhappy without the direct access on my keyboard.. I use it ALL THE TIME! I use that button for everything from voice volume, DSP, Reverb, Chorus, and just about every function it allows.. It saves so much time..

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-22-2003).]

How many of you use the demo button on a gig?(sorry UD). Stick a piece of duct tape (the handyman's secret weapon) across it (or any othe button you don't use).

Bryan

Re: problems with touch screen - There is a marked difference between the usability of touch screen vs. the buttons. The strength of the touch screen, or any elaborate visual interface, such as Windows' menuing system, is that it can help an unfamiliar, novice user get around the instrument functions easily. As such, it is a very useful tool for the salespeople, who are not too familiar with the instrument they are trying to demo, and for casual home users, who do not routinely go beyond the very basic functions of an instrument.

The underside is that using a screen, you have to operate it sequentially, i.e. getting through one menu level at a time. Obviously, navigating through the levels of the menu takes more time. The problem with Roland's touch screen is that it is designed for large fingers, i.e. display density is very low, with fairly few screen "buttons" displayed at a time. This requires more menu levels to get to the functions you need.

The other disadvantage of a large screen, in lieu of buttons, is that the user must wait to see the screen being updated, before seeing that the previous selection was the one he intended to make, and being able to select the next "button". This takes the player's concentration away from the audience.

The buttons are not as flexible, but they have a number of advantages: first, they can be pressed concurrently, or almost so - for example I can press the Upper1 and Upper2 buttons at the same time, and the parts will be toggled. I can select the Bank and Sound by two concurrent button presses (of course this only works on a keyboard which has separate sets of buttons for bank and individual selections, i.e. on E-70, but not quite so easy on G-1000).

Second, a button provides tactile feedback to your action of button press. This means that the user does not have to take his eyes off the audience (or his fake book, or wherever) just to change a setting of his instrument.

IMHO, the most user-friendly arranger was Korg i30. It allowed you to use the buttons in a performance, and screen while setting up or playing at home. The VA-7/76 has gotten the sound/style/perf selection almost right; the Favorite sounds buttons are useful too. However, they decided to skimp in the real time style controls, and having to go through the screen to select between the variations (there is one button, I believe) is a drag.

That is why most home users and people seeing a demo at the store like the VA- series, while those of us who play live and have to quickly adjust to the audience requests and moods, do not.

The same goes for the eKo keyboard - it will only be useful to live arranger players if it offers a panel of many discrete buttons for realtime control, preferrably with feedback indicator lights (perhaps in place of the rotary pots panel on the picture). While having a large screen to show the status of the current selections is useful (on a single screenful), there should be no functions used in live play which would require the user to to through the screen menus.

Regards,
Alex

Alex, one of the innovations of the eKo is the interchangeability of the control panels. A special panel with arranger buttons could be packaged with an arranger program. OpnLabs has indicated a willingness to work with 3rd party developers on such packages. However, whether anyone will do an arranger package remains to be seen.

Clif,

I understand that eKo is supposed to have the capability to support interchangeable panels; however, at this point this is barely more than a proof of concept prototype. Although the people who conceived it must be applauded, it remains to be seen whether it will fly as a product, let alone garner enough support from third parties to cater to ours, arranger keyboardists' needs, as we are a fairly small chunk of the market.

I was merely saying in my previous post that for live performers the platform will not be useful in its present form.

We should distinguish between the things the instrument should be able to do and the ones it actually does - there are big disconnects between the two in any instrument each of us owns, as we all make suggestions to the manufacturers of what to incorporate into software updates. Many of our suggestions are left unfulfilled, leaving us to gripe, complain, and sometimes switch to a different brand.

Regards,
Alex