I did another session with the PAS last night, it was my third time with the PAS.
I played a Yamaha stereo digital P90, my friend on P120 and vocals; and another guy on a Gibson 1980 Les Paul. We played jazz standards.

The vocals sounded very clear and the diepersion was nice, you can hear it clearly. The guitar sounded clear too. Voice and guitar are both mono instruments and produce sound mostly in the mid range. A single Bose PAS is mono and has good mid range clarity and dispersion. You can stand close to it and it doesn't hit your ears too hard because you are on axis such that only one of the little 24 speakers is aimed directly at your ear.

The two Yamaha digital piano keyboards we played (P120, P90) both use stereo samples and their stereo piano patches suffered in mono. The pianos sounded sounded thin, less open compared to stereo, boxy (like the old Kurzweil pianos), lacking in presence and sort of brittle. The magic of stereo, that open spatial sound, seems somehow compressed and sounds as if it suffers from phase cancellation when played in a mono system. The Yamaha "Rhodes EP" patches faired better, though somewhat narrow sounding. Rhodes EP Patches are mostly mid range tone, far less wide frequency range than an acoustic piano.

I also noticed a gap in the frequency range, something was missing in the upper low range. The area between the lower mid range and the upper low frequency range seemed lacking. Perhaps a different EQ setting could help that. I also didn't hear a lot of "sparkle" in the high frequency range. Again, perhaps a different EQ setting could help that too.

I think I will pass on the Bose PAS. I realize need to play in stereo to maintain the full tone and spatial sound of my Yamaha digital acoustic piano. By the way, there are no mono piano samples in the current Yamaha P series pianos. We tried every possible way of connecting to the PAS: going direct L/R Mono Sum Out, Right only, Left Only, both Right and Left Channels. Also with and without a Mackie mixer.
We could not get the Yamaha stereo digital pianos to sound good enough in mono. It's their nature that they need to be played in stereo.

Thanx for the review.....there seems to be a "Love/Hate" relatonship with this sound system....I just talked to Scott Yee and he gave me his thoughts about PAS during a Tryout at his Local GC store today with his Tyros, but I'll let him tell you more about it later ..........

------------------
www.donnypesce.com

As Donny said , yes, I finally had a chance to checkout the Bose PAS at my local GC store today. I also took my Yamaha Tyros keyboard and mic (EV 757) to audition thru the PAS, which included the PS1 Power stand, L1 Cylindrical speaker column, and B1 Bass module. First off, after reading Rintincop's review, I concur with all of his observations. This may partly be due to the fact that both he and I come from an acoustic piano playing background where the ability to reproduce the sound of an acoustic piano remains at the top of our requirements. Ok here's my impression of the Bose PAS:

The first thing I noticed right off was its natural sounding clarity in the mid range. I felt the PAS reproduced my vocals and the Tyros' mono sampled mid range type instrument sounds beautifully. The sound did not sound harsh, even though I was only situated (at the keyboard) a few feet away from the speaker column. In addition, the sound dispersed out to fill the room in a very pleasingly natural way. I then played an exposed piano ballad utilizing only the Tyros' stereo sampled acoustic grand voice, along with both the Tyros' Left and Right audio outputs connected to input 1 & 2 on the Bose PS1 unit. I immediately noticed that not only did the piano sound lack the life & sparkle (transparency) which occurs when going out thru stereo speakers, but that the piano also sounded thin, brittle (harsh), and covered (boxed in). I then played some songs utilizing the stereo grand piano along with auto accompaniment, but continued to be disatisfied (and musically uninspired) playing this acoustic piano voice. The Guitar Center sales staff, as well as a couple of other customer onlookers who were also listening, concured that the Yamaha stereo acoustic piano sounded lack luster when going to the Bose PAS unit. Though the sales person attempted to change the EQ settings on the PAS it still wasn't able to overcome the 'phase cancellation' phenomenon which occurs when mixing a stereo sample to mono output. Yamaha stereo samples rely heavily on effects to achieve its impressive realism. Without the added effects, the acoustic piano's sound is nothing short of disappointing, especially when playing 'solo' or in an exposed small combo setting, of which I principally do. If playing the 'stereo' acoustic piano sounds (and other instruments that rely on stereo effects) especially in an 'exposed' manner, are not among your requirements, then the Bose PAS may be a great (albeit $2,0000 expensive) PA option to consider, but for me, I'm staying with my EV SxA100's and/or Motion Sound KP100S stereo PA. - Scott

Hey Rintincop and Scottyee,

Well, that's too bad that the Bose didn't work out for you guys.

But I do have a question about this cancellation when summing channels. We've heard from many sources here that when you sum the left and right channels (electronically) while playing certain patches, the sound suffers from phase cancellations (and I believe you guys). So why don't you have these same cancellations when listening to speakers? You can have phase additions and subtractions electronically and/or acoustically, right? I would think that the only way to truly listen to these patches would be through headphones then.

Or is this something that you do take into consideration when setting up your gear?

mike

Hi Mike, both 'excellent' questions but ones I don't have an answer to. I can only rely on 'my ears', and to them, the detrimental effects of phase cancellation from going from a stereo source (on Yamaha keyboards) to a single mono output is both noticeable & unacceptable to me. Hopefully someone else here might be able to supply the scientific reasonings & answers. - Scott

Posted on the Bose Forum:
http://bose.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=8206048934&f=8766055944&m=2016038075
___________________________________________
Cliff-at-Bose
Moderator
posted Mon March 08 2004 08:27 AM

"Jeremiah et al

The issue here is "how does the xxx stereo digital piano sound when summed to mono?", not "how does the xxx piano sound over the Bose PAS?". This is a question for the manufacturers of these instruments and has nothing to do with the sound of the Bose system. Any piano in mono in the studio, over cans, in your stage wedge (ewwwww) or over the Personalized Amplification System is another issue entirely. If stereo is the only mode of operation for any given stereo digital piano, you need 2 separate systems to make it work right, independent of the system you want to use. And if this is the case, you're back to stereo ("the intended 'good sound' ") for the player only and funny sound for everyone else, like guitar players in the "sweet spot" of their 4x12.

My recommendation for the serious piano player (especially the ensemble player) that wants everyone to hear what they hear: get a piano that sums to or plays in mono and sounds great. Then use the PAS. With this system, put fabulous in and fabulous comes out, everywhere and at whatever level you need."

___________________________________________
Cliff-at-Bose
Moderator
posted Mon March 08 2004 08:27 AM


My recommendation for the serious piano player (especially the ensemble player) that wants everyone to hear what they hear: get a piano that sums to or plays in mono and sounds great. Then use the PAS. With this system, put fabulous in and fabulous comes out, everywhere and at whatever level you need."

Too bad many of Yamaha's Digital Pianos don't have mono Piano samples. There are a few though. I think most of the Keyboard companies, ie., Korg, Roland, Kurzweil, etc., have mono sampled Pianos in them. From what I understand all the Yamaha P-Series Digital Pianos don't. I think the S90 does and also the Motif does.

As Cliff pointed out the simple solution is to buy a Digital Piano/Keyboard with mono Grand Piano patches on it and get one PAS system. But you still miss out on the added benefit that a Stereo signal gives not to mention Pan and other effects you get with Stereo too. Of course many Piano/Keyboard players don't give a hoot about Stereo or Panning or the other added benefits it provides as long as the sound is satisfactory to them and the people keep showing up for their Gigs their satisfied. But OMB's that use Auto-accompaniment would sure benefit sound wise from a Stereo setup. We need all the help we can get as OMB's to impress an audience and to use all the tools at our disposal to do so. And one of those tools is Stereo sound. We are the "Band" and Stereo gives a more convincing impression to the audience of that; - ie., "a real live Band sound".

Best regards,
Mike

Steve Deming and other Yamaha keyboard experts:

Considering the above statement, are there 'any' MONO sampled 'acoustic piano' voices included in the: Yamaha Tyros, 9000pro, PSR2100, or PSR3000 keyboards, or are ALL Yamaha acoustic piano sounds sampled in stereo only? If there are indeed MONO sampled acoustic pianos in the Tyros, please specify which these are.

Thanks. - Scott

Scott Yee wrote:

"Considering the above statement, are there 'any' MONO sampled 'acoustic piano' voices included in the: Yamaha Tyros, 9000pro, PSR2100, or PSR3000 keyboards, or are ALL Yamaha acoustic piano sounds sampled in stereo only? If there are indeed MONO sampled acoustic pianos in the Tyros, please specify which these are."

Scott,

There is an easy way to diagnose if a Voice on the Tyros is Mono sampled or not. Under the Voice Effect column on the right side of the Tyros if you'll notice the Poly/Mono button and small radial light next to the button, if you choose a Voice on the Tyros that is Sampled in Mono the 'light' will "come on" telling you it is a Mono sampled Voice.

Unfortunately "none" of the Tyros' Pianos are Mono Sampled.

Best regards,
Mike

Mike, I think that only shows if the patch is monophonic or polyphonic..

Thanks Fran. It just occurred to me a few minutes ago that it is indeed just showing whether a Voice is Polyphonic or Monophonic. My mistake and as I rushed on the Web to SZ to correct my error, lo and behold you set the record straight before I did. Sorry for the mis-information everyone.

I guess the only way to find out if there are Mono Sampled Pianos on the Tyros or later PSR's is to hear from Yamaha directly.

Best regards,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 03-09-2004).]