It's still going to be hard to record the sax on some tunes, but this unit should save most of the frustration I had with trying to hold my horn and work computer software. The auto punch-in, punch-out with the knobs for eq seems like it will be worth the cost.

On loud, middle of the horn blowing, it's easier to record the Tenor sax. However, if you try to imitate the old “Masters“, on a slow ballad playing the tenor in the lowest register all the way down to the bottom Bb in a soft moody tone, it's much harder to get the Mic to pick up the sound that is coming from the bottom of the horn (bell). If you blast it out, it will pick up the note, but it doesn’t sound very good on a soft moody ballad. The old “Masters” invented a term called sub-toning on the Tenor. I haven’t heard anyone do it on an Alto. The Tenor excels in sub-toning...

So I'll probably try it through my Mackie mixer or even try my little RMS mixer so as to be able to use maybe 2 or 3 Mics. One set way at the bottom of the horn where the low sounds come out of the bell. If the Mackie or the RMS doesn't work I'll probably need advice on a mixer for recording.

I wish someone here would be experienced in what I want to do or maybe knew someone who could help me through email. Most of the folks who knew about this particular recording problem are dead now.

I can growl and blow you out of your seat if I‘m doing Watermelon Man, Honky Tonk, Night Train, Ode To Billie Joe etc. etc. and I won’t have any problem with notes being heard with that style of playing. when I record. But, the slow soft stuff is frustrating. Help! Help! Help!
Thanks again

So where'd you get that for only $349? That include shipping, tax?

Boo,
The mixer HAS to be a better preamp and mic input then the stock connection. I think you'll have better luck that way!

B&Hphotovideo. $372 with shipping. This is the DP-01 not the DP-01FX. I don't need all that distortion stuff. I don't play guitar, anyway if I did, I'd make sure that my guitar didn't have that distortation crap!NOISE is more descriptive!

Dave you'll probably be getting a few emails from me if this thing is more complicating than what the manual looks like.

A new employee at the local coffee shop is a blues harp player and has played with some pretty good blues band back East somewhere. I mentioned about recording and he said he did quite a bit of multi-track recording back East.

He knopws all the terminology that I just learned in the past year reading about digital recording. He knows about Tape Digital everything it seems. Maybe he will be able to help me over the hump.

The manual I downloaded says the DP-01 works with Windows ME, Windows 2000, and Windows XP. It doesn't say anything about Windows 98SE.

On the Tascam forum one fellow says he has two computers. One with 2000 and one with XP and neither will recognize the DP-01 from the USB.

comon Boo I want to hear some great SAX recordings now that you have the ability to do so ......good luck with your new unit!

I have a couple of live recordings of Boo when he was here. Maybe now that the holidays are over, I'll have time to listen to them and post them somewhere.
By the way, he can REALLY play that sax.
DonM

Don speaks well of me because he likes Drew and Penny.

"I don't need all that distortion stuff. I don't play guitar, anyway if I did, I'd make sure that my guitar didn't have that distortation crap!NOISE is more descriptive!"


You also dint need XLR inputs, or phantom power, the host of other effects the other unit offered ":P

To call distortion noise is kinda silly ( but understandable from someone that doesn't play guitar ), just I find it odd.... distortion fuzz and whatever originally was used for guitar players that would take the role of a sax player in a band.

So your blanket statement is sorta self hate...as the "noise" you call it, shares many tonalities with your instrument of choice.

Beyond all that you sound like one of those dolts that was smashing rock records in the 50s, only your doing 55 years later...so its more like a joke.

Oops! I need to apologize again. I think Mr. Webster can express my thoughts much better than I am able to express them myself!

DISTORT 1:to twist out of the true meaning 2:to twist out of a natural, normal or original shape or condition. 3: To reproduce improperly

(1)NOISE 1: loud, confused, or senseless shouting or out cry 2: Sound: Especially: one that lacks agreeable musical quality or is noticeably unpleasant.

This describes much of the "so-called music" that I've heard for many years. Many disagree with me and that is their right. We all have differences of opinions. And there’s nothing wrong with that. If we all liked noise there wouldn’t be any real musicians, right?.

Many today believe that the world is flat. I disagree with them also. And Hey! I may yet be proved wrong about that too. But everyone knows what noise is. Even if they won't admit it.

Noise, distortion, tricks, gimmicks, costumes are all distractions from the lack of true musicianship.

You don't have to make noise forever. You'd be surprised by what hard work and practice can do, even for a really bad musician. If you can really play there is no need to get offensive by this post.

If the shoe fits, wear it. Practice, practice, practice and you can throw away that noisemaker if you're using one.

The other day...Im the one that told you of the recorder you got in the first place. Do you understand that? Ive recorded Grammy winning horn players. Do you understand that?

So your view means about jack to me, I was just shocked at the level of stupidity and the blanket statement directed at an entire world of music. I only hoped perhaps you could open a door to something you dont understand ( much like recording a single sax line as of now ).

But if you and your ego thinks your somehow better then anyone thats used some form of distortion have fun in your own little candy land.

"DISTORT 1:to twist out of the true meaning 2:to twist out of a natural, normal or original shape or condition. 3: To reproduce improperly "

So you know the true meaning? Come on now...if we even try to follow your logic, that would mean things that are musically correct are wrong.......cause wouldn't a bent note a trill a slide a hammer be more of a perversion then the texture of the tonality. Plus when and where does this distortion start? Cause we have to twist elements out of their natural shape to even get an instrument.

"(1)NOISE 1: loud, confused, or senseless shouting or out cry 2: Sound: Especially: one that lacks agreeable musical quality or is noticeably unpleasant."

So let me get this right..."Return to Forever lacks agreeable musical quality or is noticeably unpleasant" in your equation.

" We all have differences of opinions."

You might use the scapegoat of having some silly view, but facts as examples of thousands of artists kinda blasts you down.

I gave a simple opinion of bad noise that some folks call music. That would be someone who knows 3 chords, can't play more than one type scale in the same key, and yanks on the handle to bend the same note all night and doesn't know that Gb is a black note on a keyboard.

Looks like you've taken this personally. Is this you? If you can really play a guitar, I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about someone who can't play and just makes noise to fool people. Again, is this you? If not, you’re all upset over nothing.

If this is you, print out my above post and read it every day until it sinks in. I'm doing you a favor by encouraging you to practice practice practice.

There are probably hundreds of very good Sax players. Keyboardists, Guitarist, so on and so forth that have no idea where to push the record button on a recorder. Does that mean they aren't good musicians. Of course not!

There are probably hundreds of thousands of recording engineers that don't know an Eb from a C. Probably that's why they are recording engineers instead of musicians. Maybe they can only make noise with a guitar.

All of you real guitarist probably feel the same way about the noise guitarist as I do. They are entertainers not really musicians. There will never be an agreement between musicians and noisemakers of what is music and what is not.

This reminds me of folks who want to compare golf as a sport in the same category as football. No matter how much the talk about it, it isn’t going to happen. .

Music is music . Noise is noise.

I hope you really can play so you’ll get the message and calm down. I may need you to teach me how to use this recorder. I’m still struggling to be a musician. All I want to do is make a decent Demo for my prospects. OK?

Boo, you are dealing with an old friend of ours who cannot separate ideas from personalities. Don't waste your time debating him.
DonM

I'm truly sorry about this. I'm not not looking to make enemies. I feel about this noise issue they call music just as Dave feels about his job not his gig.

I respect Dave for his zealousness in his profession. That's why Dave is one of my favorite people. He's sincere and knows a lot and has tons of experience in this ONE_MAN_BAND business. He, like a select few here are priceless.

Now to my next point. Dave knows absolutely nothing about football except that his team's name is the Eagles and that the quarterback's name is McNabb. Read my other football post. he!he! boy I gott em' again. This is so much fun getting Dave. He's also my favorite forum buddy to get. Ha! Ha!

Sorry Don, Gary and Donny you guys all have to get in line behind Dave for this privelege!


[This message has been edited by brickboo (edited 01-03-2005).]

[This message has been edited by brickboo (edited 01-03-2005).]

"I gave a simple opinion of bad noise that some folks call music. That would be someone who knows 3 chords, can't play more than one type scale in the same key, and yanks on the handle to bend the same note all night and doesn't know that Gb is a black note on a keyboard."

This I almost agree with ( that seems odd doesn't it ), just I dont take it to the extreme of ANYONE that has overdrive or distortion suffers from these problems. Funny thing is getting your viewpoint on guitar when "If I played guitar" is your only backing, get a guitar learn how to play it then spew your enlightenment out. Cause this noise guitar fantasy you speak of is priceless...I would love some real world connection of it in action "yanks on the handle to bend the same note all night." You know that "handle" has a name, quiet a few in fact. Your three chord slant is also over the top, that is unless half of Hank Williams songs are in fact trash.

"Looks like you've taken this personally. Is this you? If you can really play a guitar, I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about someone who can't play and just makes noise to fool people. Again, is this you? If not, you’re all upset over nothing."

I think after the track I sent its clear I have no issue. Who in the heck is the "you" this is like the third time ive gotten this.

"If this is you, print out my above post and read it every day until it sinks in. I'm doing you a favor by encouraging you to practice practice practice."

I think after the track I sent its clear I have no issue. Who in the heck is the "you" this is like the third time ive gotten this.

"There are probably hundreds of very good Sax players. Keyboardists, Guitarist, so on and so forth that have no idea where to push the record button on a recorder. Does that mean they aren't good musicians. Of course not! "

Nope it doesn't, only a musician that has the ability to engineer has an advantage ( as Im sure you have noticed ).

"There are probably hundreds of thousands of recording engineers that don't know an Eb from a C. Probably that's why they are recording engineers instead of musicians. Maybe they can only make noise with a guitar."

For the most part much like the last thing I spoke of, an engineer that has a musical mind will have an advantage over one that doesn't.

"All of you real guitarist probably feel the same way about the noise guitarist as I do. They are entertainers not really musicians. There will never be an agreement between musicians and noisemakers of what is music and what is not."

So now if your entertaining your not a musician?

"This reminds me of folks who want to compare golf as a sport in the same category as football. No matter how much the talk about it, it isn’t going to happen. ."

Errrr ok

"Music is music . Noise is noise."

And someone that cant listen past a sonic texture is a fool.

"I hope you really can play so you’ll get the message and calm down. I may need you to teach me how to use this recorder. I’m still struggling to be a musician. All I want to do is make a decent Demo for my prospects. OK?"

You need to calm down as someone that has stated reasons they can't make their own backing tracks with the scapegoat of it being work and that they can't play live with any bands or solo over a ton of trivial fantasy excuses shouldn't question the musicianship of another.

I have no problem with teaching, in fact I enjoy it...when Im getting paid or like the person or happen to love what their doing. Few days back had the joy of recording some traditional musicians from Scotland, and now am in the middle editing some film footage from their time in states for a "Socumentary" of sorts ( sorry that was random ).

That said I dont know you, Im not getting paid, and if your using pre fab styles with the ambition of dumping sax lines on top of it I dont care what your doing.

The manuel read it read it read it.

Boo,

We all know who we are dealing with here and it is not worth a response. Just remember that the growl sax made famous by "Boots" is distortion, so let's not be too hasty with our remarks.

Tom

"Boo,
We all know who we are dealing with here and it is not worth a response. Just remember that the growl sax made famous by "Boots" is distortion, so let's not be too hasty with our remarks.

Tom"

Yeah your dealing with someone that tried to tell this whatever this SAME thing days ago, thanks for supporting my point.

Tom believe it or not Boots did not invent the growl sax. I growled in 1956 when just learning the Sax and I think Boots became famous sometime after that. They were growling in the 20's and 30's probably before Boots was born. Ha! Ha!

I was practicing Yakety Sax everyday from the first day I heard it. I still enjoy looking at people's faces when I kick it off.

That's all my buddy and I did was growl for the first 2 or 3 years in our rock & roll bands. But after we learned to play real tough tunes the right way there was no need for the gimmick anymore.

I might growl for a few notes here and there during the night, but it's only on tunes like Night Train etc. or some tune where it might be appropriate.

If a guy growls all night into his horn, it is more noise than music. You know what I mean?

Hell this place gets more exciting everytime (4-Track) comes back with a new forum name He like all of us has his own opinions. To respond is our choice. If he's completely off base and takes a post and twists it into something it's not (which he does a lot), just don't reply to him. I agree with some of his remarks and not on others. I do however agree with him on the distortion issue. When you learn to play guitar you'll learn to enjoy those effects. It's not just a rocker or metal head effect. It's used in other music (Like Blues), and it really beefs up a solo.

Squeak

Hey squeak did you ever get a new recorder? After all of your help last year I finally broke down and got one.

If I can't figure out how to work this thing since everyone here knows (what did you call him? 4 track) I'm gonna get one of you guys to help me find out where he lives and I'm gonna make Buster take an 18 wheeler load to where he lives and I'll have Buster sit on him until he shows me how to work this contraction.

Is this the same guy that rants and raves about copywrite?

Sir, if you are the same gentleman I'm thinking of, please forget everything I said and I relly apologzize if I hurt your feelings. Really!
Boo Hargis

"If I can't figure out how to work this thing since everyone here knows (what did you call him? 4 track) I'm gonna get one of you guys to help me find out where he lives and I'm gonna make Buster take an 18 wheeler load to where he lives and I'll have Buster sit on him until he shows me how to work this contraction."

If buster has to go through death valley to get here, have him bring me a rock.

"Is this the same guy that rants and raves about copywrite? "

Nope

"Sir, if you are the same gentleman I'm thinking of, please forget everything I said and I relly apologzize if I hurt your feelings. Really!"

Finally we somewhat agree on something, as I feel sorry for you as well. Really!

------------------------------------------

Now that we all agree...what are your major issues with the recorder, what other gear are you working with ( mixer, mics and so on ).

As your going to be combining live sax with some keyboard backing, your going to have to pay much mind to get them to meld somewhat natural. Right off I would say with backing, go for two parts. First part being drums and bass..get those in order on your keyboard, then record them to the tascam across two tracks. After that layer other filler flesh out parts directly to the recorder. Main reason for this...while you could stack everything in the keyboard then just record the entire backing to two tracks, you would lose some after the fact mixing control (regardless of you mixing freedoms within the keyboard ). Heck you could record all parts independent, you can do anything anyhow any order.

For your sax...HAVE to go with two channels, while mono is workable and fine...a close mic and a room mic with a sax ( and many other random things ) would be great. PLUS it could kill any need for any type of reverb effects blah blah blah and so on, as you would have a great natural sound tracked in the first place. On top of that two mics would help balance it with the keyboard parts, as most of those should be ( or at least the piano voice of your board ) in stereo.

In relation to the natural sax and the harsher sound of the keyboard, you can get a feel for the dynamics of your recorded sax parts...and match your keyboards effects before the fact to fit better with the sax.

Thank you so much friend. I like the idea of a mic in the middle of the room. I'll experiment. That never crossed my mind. Natural reverb.

I have sequences I've done with my keyboard to play live. I intend to record the sequences straight into the Tascom, which hasn't arrived yet, and record the sax on a different track. Did you say record the sax on two tracks?

Like I mentioned before, Honky Tonk, Nighttrain and tunes that are played forte in the middle of the horn are much easier to record. The problem is the low C, B, and Bb being play in a sub-tone on slow pretty ballads, which are hard notes to pick up.

What about a mic by the bell, another mic at the bottom near the big key holes on the low notes and a room mic. Do you think this would be too many mics.

You know your business I can see. I'm glad we're friends now, friend! I'm elated that I didn't delete this post as I almost did yesterday.

I like to joke around, but I don't like the long drawn out arguments. Thanks for your experience. If you want to know how to lay bricks, send me an email.
Boo Hargis

"Thank you so much friend. I like the idea of a mic in the middle of the room. I'll experiment. That never crossed my mind. Natural reverb."

Yeah your gonna have eight tracks, PLUS with what your doing with the keyboard...no reason not to take advantage of it.

"I have sequences I've done with my keyboard to play live. I intend to record the sequences straight into the Tascom, which hasn't arrived yet, and record the sax on a different track. Did you say record the sax on two tracks? "

Yup two tracks. Also record the keyboard on two ( pointless to say, lol but ive seen some folks sequence 16 tracks on a keyboard only to record the mono left ":/ ). ALSO check this...after you have your stereo keyboard tracks on the recorder, you can copy paste those two tracks to two more tracks ( lots of twos ). If you do this...you have the freedom for multi EQs, multi pans and so on.

Example of the advantage you would get with copy and paste is. Recall how I stated you could record everything independent to have greater control over the mix...well you can get the same results in part by doing this. For rough example lets say your keyboard has (drums,bass,organ,piano). WELL on your first two tracks, you could focus on EQing the (drums,bass >...on the other two tracks ( the copy pasted ones ), you could focus on EQing the (organ, piano).

Just more freedom for you to get what you want

"Like I mentioned before, Honky Tonk, Nighttrain and tunes that are played forte in the middle of the horn are much easier to record. The problem is the low C, B, and Bb being play in a sub-tone on slow pretty ballads, which are hard notes to pick up."

Ok check this out your close mic should be about a foot from the bell, low notes are HARD to pick up super close...you need a bit of space for the wave to develop where it can be picked up. Foot away on the close in combo with a room mic you shouldnt have a problem. This is one of the reasons multi mics is good...you dont have to capture EVERYTHING with one mic on one track, you have the freedom to mix multi sources to get one sound.

Also play around with your EQs on your mixer/recorder slightly to help pick up the notes you need. Some might tell you to record flat then add EQs in the mix, BUT why use EQs only after you recorded? Try to track the sound you want in the first place, boosting EQs and so on while tracking is going to yield dramatically different results then if you just EQ a recorded source. Only once again...your open to do whatever whenever however.

Speaking of EQs...depending on a ton of factors ( the room, the mics, the mixer ) your gonna run into some noise issues, also the factor of recording at a 16bit sample rate is going to lead to some things perhaps sounding a bit off. MOST all your noise is going to happen in the high eq range ( the room mic will suffer the worse from this ). So if you have some shhhhhhhhh or whatever on your track, roll the high EQ back a bit. You should be able to almost completely kill any unwanted noise, just know there is a balance of killing noise and keeping your frequency range open enough so you dont lose whatever good sound that is there.

"What about a mic by the bell, another mic at the bottom near the big key holes on the low notes and a room mic. Do you think this would be too many mics."

If you think you can swing it, I would say try it at the very least. Just know this, mic near the keyholes shouldn't be very predominant in the mix. More or less a general mix with three mics...I would put the close mix front and center, then soft pan the other two mics left and right and adjust their levels. With two mics room and close, I would soft pan and balance them.

The only slight issue your going to run into with three mics, the tascam only has two inputs...so you would be dependent on externally mixing the three tracks into two tracks to send to the recorder. NOT that big of a deal JUST if you do this your gonna have to make sure you track near exactly how you want the end result, as your doing a mini mix while tracking.

"You know your business I can see. I'm glad we're friends now, friend! I'm elated that I didn't delete this post as I almost did yesterday. "

hahaha no worries

"I like to joke around, but I don't like the long drawn out arguments. Thanks for your experience. If you want to know how to lay bricks, send me an email.
Boo Hargis"

Man you know...there might just be a point in time "


[This message has been edited by Alone&Forsaken (edited 01-05-2005).]

Hey friend change your name from Alone&Forsaken to Ready,Willing&Able. Or I can help! Anything but Alone&Forsaken. Your gonna be valuable here. Just practice what Dave and I are learning to do and calm down a little bit if you read something you don't like> It ain't worth it. You'll sleep better. I know I am since I've been working on what I call my anger stress problem.
Read my other post about the Tascam arriving.

"Hey friend change your name from Alone&Forsaken to Ready,Willing&Able. Or I can help! Anything but Alone&Forsaken. Your gonna be valuable here. Just practice what Dave and I are learning to do and calm down a little bit if you read something you don't like> It ain't worth it. You'll sleep better. I know I am since I've been working on what I call my anger stress problem.
Read my other post about the Tascam arriving."


Well, thanks but its just random bit of info. As for my user name, its the title of a Hank song...that to spite all the hank in my collection hit me real hard some time back.

Ill go check that other post now.