We get a lot of miscommunication here at SZ when the OMBs come up against players that don't use their arrangers as strictly OMB tools. Weight, for instance, is not such an issue if there are more than one of you, different aspects of arranger usage become more/less important, depending on what other instruments you play with, in fact, some use arrangers simply for the more practical sound-set and easier navigation than most workstations, etc., etc..

So it would be interesting to see who fall into what category... Would you mind posting if you are either a solo, or what format you use your arranger in (multiple answers of course if you play in more than one situation!)?

I'd especially like to hear from people that use arrangers in a non-arranger role - studio, full bands, drums only, etc.. What different viewpoints do you bring to arranger usage and needs?

i am not ONLY a OMB, but play with my praise and worship team in the church as pianist or guitar player (that is actually more often than pianist).

when playing along with some more people, i often would like to have weighted keys on my keyboard. for piano lines, definitely i'd like to have it. but then, when i play by myself, i think i prefer sytnh action better.
at times, i use the keyboard for drums sounds. i play the drums manually on the keys, and then for sure i'd hate having to use weighted keys.
and yes, basically, i can play the same or even better using the arranger instead of old roland xp60 workstation.

i also use my keyboard as a midi input for my computer, when working in the studio projects. i am happy with it the way it is, because i know some more controlers (faders and assignable buttons) are hard to ask for in a arranger.

SOLO performer - arranger keyboardist and vocalist.

Use NO midi files, mp3 or CD's. Strictly arranger playing all the way, which works perfectly well for me.

zuki

i use my Pa1x for song composition, for remixing and live with full or partial accompaniment with choirs or small groups,i also use it in straight keyboard mode for worship and praise in church. I too sometimes play the drums on the keyboard manually when we have no drummer, play the bass when there is no bassist or whatever is required.

Have never used the instruement a a one man band entertainer but am open to the prospect !

Hi, Diki. Three or so jobs a week are arranger only. At least one house job a week pays well enough to add a drummer and bass player. Since the arranger is there, I use it for lead liners and piano. I have an XB-2 there, so I use it for organ and left-handed bass (duo nights).

Occasionally, on very quick, low budget film work (usually training films), I'll write a score and use the arranger with 4 outs directly into the board.

Whatever works...


R.

Another SOLO player here... only use styles and control all chord changes / fills etc in real time in arranger mode. no midi file or MP3 file playback at all.

That underlying sense of purism is evolving in this thread, But Does anyone feel by using Only styles with an Arranger make it any different then using SMF or Mp3 or any other kind of backing tracks to create accompaniment for their music or vocals make any difference?

The strength of today's arranger keyboards, allow it to wear many hats..I am just as comfortable playing left hand bass, right hand piano and "color" sounds like organ, sax etc..

Today's' arrangers can also cover song writing too, and is just as able as any workstation[at least top of the line arrangers]..

I am not so foolish as to turn[shun] away from using SMF's , and/or MP3's...there are some venues you will never cover any other way...believe me...

The versatility of an arranger is so complete, I could never understand hard nose players avoided them like the plaque...but it is there loss and our gain..

yep, gotta agree with fran... and dnj, in reply to your question, imo, i dont reckon it should make any difference, as fran says, use whatever
is necessary, have no "hard and fast" rules...about anything!!...if a person doesn't take the moral high ground, they can't fall off the cliff!!!
dennis

Perhaps they were only explaining how they use their boards? ...

Personally, I use all the tools available ...

t.

... and I also play with duos or trios ...
t.

I personally think its makes one much more talented, flexible, & versatile to an audience to be able to "do it all" showing off many skills, playing, singing, controlling, mixing it all up while performing then just playing repetitive arranger styles over & over again all the time. Some may look at it different, but that's my opinion.

Yes, I wasn't so much interested in the 'styles vs. SMFs' debate (that's been beat to death), but more in whether you use arrangers in anything OTHER than OMB situations.

I feel there is quite a difference in outlook for those with musical partners as to how they use their arrangers compared to the solo performer (in general, at least), and different things have different needs. So I'm kind of asking to find out who the non-OMB guys (and gals!) are, so I can be more aware of who has what priorities, etc..

So, who else is not just a solo OMB....? (and I don't mean that disparagingly, just different... Objects in mirror... yada yada yada)

I respectfully disagree with the notion that one cannot play every venue, if not using midi files. No thanks - they sound like garbage to me and I don't want to be the 10th person in a row using the same San Francisco midi file - where did originality go?

Zuki, my friend you are so wrong....

I left my heart in SanFrancisco..isn't exactly the venue material I am talking about..

Try playing.."So many men".."It's raining men".."Come sail away".."Cool Jerk"..and hundreds of other signature songs...

Not even ..most of the top bands can pull this venue off..

I promise you..One man band performers, that play arranger only..can not play High energy venues, High roller parties etc..

Actually ..most arranger players would bomb out of any "gig" I do with the band....

I am being honest with you..I may have more experience working with all the "tools"...as we have discussed in the past..Be happy with what you are doing..I am happy for you, but don't be misguided...Styles, Mp3's SMF's...they are all needed to be well rounded..for those that disagree...Play SanFrancisco...

before we start disagreeing with each other (yet again) can we stick to the topic .....

Zuki have you put the time in to make those SMF sound better...that's part of what an arranger KB can do? I spend countless hours on perfecting each song, tweaking, adding markers, changing sounds, efx, etc, etc.
I also know players that only use SMF exclusivly & without ever using a style accompiament thruout the gig and sound fantastic. Plus it allowed you to play with both hands if not using full Kb mode....



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 06-13-2007).]

Spalding, we are not disagreeing for the heck of it..I was trying to show a point to my long time friend..

I know Fran but its ust so easy to move from the topic of the thread. It defeats the whole point of having a discussion topic and is unfair to the topic poster.

Spalding -

I started the sway.......sorry

Fran and Donny - I respect your opinions. I'll keep working on a few to see if my perspective changes.

zuki

I guess I'm the odd ball among the group. Having owned tons of arranger boards, not one has ever left the house for gigs. Reason: I'm a guitarist, who sings as well. I create my own backing tracks on a Tyros 2 (and sometimes BIAB). I add generous overdubs as needed and vocal harmonies. All this is played from an iPod in "live" settings. This approach works well for me. I average 8 to 10 gigs per month and play everything from the 20's through the 70's. My market doesn't require much from the 80's onward---and that's fine with me. Since I'm not a two-fisted player like many on this forum, my primary interest (in new arrangers) is in the styles and the realism of a band. I appreciate all the reviews, comments, and contributions of you with the real keyboard chops. It's helps those of us who play chords and arrange to make decisions on the latest products to assist in our solo efforts.

Well I've never done anything BUT Duo work since turning professional.

I started out as a formally trained drummer (!) in various bands (Original material only)


I'm young(ish) so weight is not an issue for me, but 76 keys is! - and sounds.

Styles I need for Songwriting, Demos and some Old Time Dancing gigs (Waltzes, Quick Steps - older "ballroom styles" in other words).

Sampling is also becoming more of a priority for us - at least for Drum Loops and more up to date Dance sounds.


The Website in my sig shows more about us and where we play in Australia if anyone's interested and explains the range we cover.

Not to start (or continue) anything, but I use 95% SMF's (Painstakingly arranged, tweaked re-written or done completely from scratch using the arranger modes) and 5% (maybe) styles for the aformentioned "Old Time" gigs.

I see nothing wrong with using both - why on earth would there be???

Peace out.



------------------
God I hate signatures.

BUT...

www.chi-chi.com.au

Half the time I'm OMB on VA76 or G1000 or PSR2000, Half the time I'm OMB i don't sing.

the other half, or actually much more than half, I'm in the "studio" making "backing tracks" on my Triton Studio, or/and in NUENDO, sometimes I use VA76 to make a backing tracks, if it's an "emergency" or for someone eho is jusy starting to sing, etc...

oh, also I play piano in church sometimes, and accordion.

[This message has been edited by Vadim (edited 06-17-2007).]

Exactly !

im with you hellboy, i do the same with my midis, even to the point of making sure the "drummer" is only playing instruments and notes that can be played with 2 hands, and not an octopus, as some midis are...further, a percentage of my midis have just drums/bass and perhaps 1 guitar, i play the rest, sometimes just the drums and i play the bassline and keyboards, and a few are also full "production" numbers, they have to be (New York, New York comes to mind!!)...i also agree with zuki that a lot of midis sound like rubbish, but you DO need to tweak them, as donny and fran have suggested...sure it can be the same "sanfransisco" file, but when tweaked fot individual interpretation, it will be different....
dennis

[This message has been edited by miden (edited 06-17-2007).]

I don't use an arranger anymore since years.
Actually since I started playing in a rockband I used the arranger a couple of years for piano/organ/strings, but switched to a Roland 760 since approx three years now and never looked back to the arranger which is collecting dust.
For composing I mainly use a Kurzweil K 2600
and real instruments.
Fred

About half the time I go solo. The rest is divided between playing in a duet or in a band. I use the Tyros 2 with all three, but I also use softsynths for the band work and sometimes for solo guitar emulation ala "Real Guitar".

I don't use very many midi files but I also have no problem using them if I feel the need to. As time has passed I've gotten more comfortable singing and playing solo, and I'd say I probably do "unplugged" versions of songs as much ( and sometimes more ) as 50% of the time, depending on the type of venue.

On the very simple stuff where I can... I sometimes use my guitars w/o backing, and on the more difficult pieces I use either the T2 voices ( solo piano or guitar sounds ) or Real Guitar, along with minimum of arranger backing ( often none at all ). I love the types of venues that I can do mostly acoustic stuff... I feel a much closer connection to the audience when I play "unplugged".. just me and the instrument, and by the responses I usually get I've come realize that this connection works for me, actually makes me feel more comfortable ( it used to scare the heck outta me goin' "nekkid" ), and therefore more entertaining.. occasional flubs and all... humor has also become a great ally for me.

AJ

Strictly home player, for me and myself...nobody would pay to hear me play, and I am not humble, I am a realist.

There was one time I played for some friends, (another guy had a guitar) and one time I was playing for my wife, who was doing the ironing and doubled as a singer... LOL

Those two times summarise my "gigs"

The arranger-function of my keyboard is mostly used in my "home studio" where I write new songs. I use the arranger there for a quick "feel" of the song (without having to play all the parts first, losing the idea in the process and ending up with no song at all or something completely different than I intended to do )

I never perform as an OMB, but who knows what the future will bring For now, I use the keyboard on stage with a band (thus playing the typical keyboard-parts such as piano's, organs, string"carpets" etc and an occasional solo) and in a homestudio-environment together with a guitar player where we play, have great fun and sometimes even record something

The reason I started using an arranger in the first place was not the arranger-part of the instrument. At that time, arrangers (in the pricerange I could afford) were the only instruments that featured "real life" instruments. I never was and never will be interested in the bleep bloops of the typical "synthesizer". I wanted true piano's, organs, guitars, brass, strings... and found them in the Roland E-15 (1992). The arranger function of that instrument was considered to be "a nice extra" but we never really used it much.

Over the years the arrangers got better and better, and now, being able to alter styles, it becomes a very usable function.

I use my arranger on a OMB gig. I use 80% user styles created and tweaked for my personal style and playing ability and to distinct myself from all the other standard OMBs. That is why changing arrangers every 6 months is not an option for me because I have built up lots of user styles and sequencers that would take a lot of work to transfer to another brand arranger.

In the style part, I usually have 2 drum tracks, a bass and a chord sound. In the left hand, I have piano, organ, strings or what ever assigned for me to play live. In the right, I would have a lead sound for me to play live. Sometimes I would have just drums and bass in the style parts and a full piano in the right (good for ballads).

I use 10% MIDIs or as I call them (Linear sequences). Again tweak to my personal touch.
And then the remaining 10% I use good old drum tracks left hand bass and piano or what ever in the right hand.

Now here is why I really like a full featured arranger. I also use my arranger in a band setting. Its much easier to get to sounds and the ability to tweak sounds and load new samples and sounds gives me a lot of flexibility. And when the band is taking a brake, I
Could play a CD or MP3 during that time.

And of course, as with any instrument, I use my arranger in my studio.

[Styles, Mp3's SMF's...they are all needed to be well rounded..for those that disagree...Play SanFrancisco... [/B][/QUOTE]

I totally agree. Most the the night my duo can get away with me play styles but there are some songs that I need to use a SMF.

Montana send me an e-mail stephenm52@yahoo.com I have a question for you, your e-mail address is not published. Thx.



[This message has been edited by Stephenm52 (edited 06-18-2007).]

Are you saying you can't play SanFrancisco using a style?

R.

LOL... or an MP3, or a CD or just switch OFF everything and PLAY it! Got to do it that ONE way, huh?

I guess it must be hard to have to choose HOW you want to play something... SO much easier if you just limit yourself, right?