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#177433 - 01/30/04 07:55 AM
Partnership woes / ethics ...........
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 12800
Loc: Penn Yan, NY
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Wow - last night was one for the textbooks. I was invited to accompany a drummer/singer at a steady Thursday nite very close to home. It was understood that it was "his" gig (his words) and we began the first Thursday in January. Slowly, I began to realize that he can't do the whole night vocally, and his repertoire is no where NEAR complete enough to cover this room, so the load fell more on MY shoulders to pace the room and such. It itself, that wasn't so bad, but he takes liberties with time, ( I need to tell him when breaks are over etc ) and repeats his favorite "few" songs because of his lack of repertoire. AhhhhhhhhhGGGGGG ! Last night, we hit an all time low - He walks in and informs me that he "forgot" his bass drum. He only brings a Bass and snare as it is !!!!!!!! He even blamed it on his wife somehow !!!! Now, I'm expected to carry the load even more, and his snarin' is not blending with the cyber-drummer that I have come to accept. I was pissed. ( NOT drunk, for my pals across the pond !) I had contacted the owner of this place a few months before I got his call and it was definitely on my prospect list. Now, I'm faced with the decision too bow out gracefully and hope that the management offers me a solo night. Or go through a personal hell each night as an underpaid/overtaxed partner in a so-so duo. What to do .... what to do...... Here's my real question for you ethics professors out there: My initial reaction is to confront him IN FRONT of the management to let my feelings out. That way, he doesn't think I'm going behind his back to snake him out of work. The trouble with that is - the boss really doesn't need to know all the interpersonal stuff that goes on ...... all he cares about is the cash register. (Which has been singin' loudly with MY customers that frequent the place now) That might be embarrasing toi the drummer - maybe he doesn't deserve that. I'm still thinking of possible repurcussions. The second option is to simply give notice - be polite and tell him I want something different. Walk away from the date and hope that the crowd misses me so the management asks me in for a different night. Third: Maybe I should just sit him down and TRY to get through to him. Tell him what I need and expect in a partnership and HOPE that he might be able to pacify my needs for one night a week. I really don't need him. He sings OK, but most of the stuff is tunes I already do. the drums add NOTHING ( in fact last night, it was a distraction !) and I really am mush more comfortabe as a soloist. Our roots are different, our styles are different and if he WAS able to call all the tunes all night ......... we would't please the crowd that comes in to see me. I know this sounds like a "me, me, me" rant, but I want some advice. Give me your views, and don't sugar coat anything ... this is me you're talking to, remember? I need it straight from the hip. Thanx, in advance UD
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#177439 - 01/30/04 09:08 AM
Re: Partnership woes / ethics ...........
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10427
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
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Dave. I agree with the others. If this gig is the drummer/singer's gig, then 'bowing out' is really the 'only' solution, especially since it appears that there may be far to many resentments from you about this guy for things to ever improve substantially.
The 'good' thing about this experience, is that the management got the opportunity to see & hear 'you', which puts you in the "spotlight" for a possible solo gig consideration on another night, or perhaps a future replacement for that drummer's spot. I suggest that, only after you've bowed out with the drummer/singer, that you then, later on, offer up your services & solo availability to management. Good luck. - Scott
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#177441 - 01/30/04 10:04 AM
Re: Partnership woes / ethics ...........
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 2204
Loc: Florida, USA
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#177442 - 01/30/04 10:10 AM
Re: Partnership woes / ethics ...........
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Senior Member
Registered: 11/19/02
Posts: 2867
Loc: Tampa, FL
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Dave,
Are you entertaining the thought of ever working with this guy again?
To save the relationship, if there is one, it's professional to just bow out. However, the question is: Will he really know why you bowed out? Should Dave tell him in an honest from the heart discussion so this guy truly understands he needs to modify his behavior to work in this business? I struggle with this all the time. I always ask myself, Why am I the only one that always confronts these people and tries to correct their behavior.
Anyway, it all boils down to your relationship with this guy. If he is a lifelong friend and business acquaintenance and you value his friendship, you owe it to him to correct his behavior. If he's just a recent acquaintenance, then quit and move on.
One more thing, the longer you wait, the harder it gets. Do it now!!!!
Al
_________________________
Al
Pa4x - LD Systems Maui 28 - Mackie Thumps
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#177448 - 01/30/04 01:30 PM
Re: Partnership woes / ethics ...........
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 1790
Loc: Medina, OH, USA
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#177453 - 01/30/04 03:49 PM
Re: Partnership woes / ethics ...........
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Senior Member
Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 7305
Loc: Lexington, Ky, USA
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Dave, believe me, the guy will get another partner, and you'll soon get the call from management. You'll sound much better alone. Sounds like the guy is an OK person, so these things are harder than if he were a real jerk. Bad players will only hurt your rp.
An Itallian restaurant here in town took my recommendation and hired an acquaintence of mine. I sub for him often. They offer me the job every time I'm there. This guy plays sax to tracks...UGH! He's not good, but he's a great guy. I will not take the job, because I will not leave my current one, even though the money is the same and this job is inside, with a great house system and stage.
Ethically, this, for me is like dating your friend's ex wife. It's ethical (I didn't go looking for the job), but would still hurt the guy's feelings. I've known him for 35 years. We played in a Motown band together in the early 70's.
But that's not your situation. You deserve the job without the hassle of putting up with a sub-par "partner". Option #2 will probably work out GREAT!
Best of luck on this one..it "ain't easy"!
Russ
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#177459 - 01/30/04 11:45 PM
Re: Partnership woes / ethics ...........
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 12800
Loc: Penn Yan, NY
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I'd love to just walk away. Really, I would, but I'm going to give this guy a chance to impress me. I told him all my concerns. I didn't hold anything back or sugar coat it. He knows how I feel and he's willing to try and make a go of it.
He actually CAN'T do the gig with someone else,, now that the boss and the crowd is spoiled with my style and finesse. I'm not blowing my own horn here - it's obvious - all my Trenton people are coming out each week since I've been there.
There is still the issue that I was asked to play and that's not so cut and dry. If he wants to be the leader - he can set up a PA - call the tunes, SELL the tunes (can't do it W/O a bass drum!)and carry the load. So far, I'm convinced he can't do it. His material will loose him the job as soon as I leave ... if I leave.
I'm going to really give him a chance. If he played better, more aggressivly, and does his share of the work - I'll stay for a while. If he goes backwards .... I'll give my notice that night. If the house offers me the job, then so be it. I won't ask for it.
_________________________
No longer monitoring this forum. Please visit www.daveboydmusic.com for contact info
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#177468 - 02/01/04 12:40 AM
Re: Partnership woes / ethics ...........
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 12800
Loc: Penn Yan, NY
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I'm trying to learn from this experience. As a soloist, we all fall into little "traps" and they can create big problems if we don't check into reality once in a while.
The idea of playing totaly live music with no electronics is very exciting to me, however -I AM spoiled by the tight rhythm and controlled tone that my machine gives me. Still, there is merit in having a human element to play off of. I want to try and make the best of this, but I don't know if it's really possible. Given the chance to play with live drums or the machine is not the comparison. I prefer live ANY day, as long as it's quality, but the real chalenge in this case is playing with THIS particular drummer instead of the machine. It may prove to be too frustrating, but I'm going to give it a real shot. My vocals are strong, my bass lines are strong ... the third priority is the drums, and if he gets that all together - I can sell it. The vocal harmonies work OK - we do Righeous Bros and Everly Bros tunes just fine. I'll take it week to week, but he IS going to have to set up and use his own PA. My gear is set up as as solo rig. Tough nuggies.
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No longer monitoring this forum. Please visit www.daveboydmusic.com for contact info
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#177479 - 02/05/04 08:07 AM
Re: Partnership woes / ethics ...........
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Member
Registered: 01/30/00
Posts: 367
Loc: Indianapolis, IN, USA
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Hi Dave,
I haven't written anything on the forum in months (although I do monitor the conversations). The following list are items that are irrelevant to your decision:
1. your partner's performance or attitude 2. your partner's ability or inability 3. the number of songs your partner knows 4. whether he keeps or loses the weekly gig without you [Who knows, even if you both work out your problems, you could still lose the gig (you know how owners/manager are)]. 5. your ability to entertain the audience better than your partner 6. the money (sorry, had to mention this) 7. your reputation 8. etc. ad nauseum . . .
Sure, all of the above are on your mind but you asked an ethical question, so here's what does matter: YOUR VIEW OF RIGHT AND WRONG (YOUR ETHICS).
Look at ethics from the following perspective: Laws and rules were made to limit very bad behavior. Bad behavior is further limited by your personal ethics, which tells you what is bad and what is good. So, some actions may be lawful, but still unethical. Unlawful actions are in the black area, good ones in the white area, and all in-between is in the gray area. Ethics deals mainly with this gray area between the clearly bad and the definitely good.
Another way to think of it is being perfectly clean (being without blame) or being covered in black soot (being guilty as hell). So Dave, how clean do you want to be?
WHITE? Then, divorce yourself from any element of gain, revenge, venting, anger, or "setting things straight", and bow out gracefully (you know, the "what would Jesus do if this was His friend?" approach).
BLACK? Then, go behind your partner's back, steal the gig and dump him (yeah, the Devil made me do it approach).
GRAY? Well, there are lots of shades so pick whatever color bothers your conscience the least and do as you please.
BOTTOM LINE? The bottom line is this; you've asked all of us a question that not only defines who YOU are but our replies reveal who WE are as well, and we should all read every reply posted to this question CAREFULLY.
So, do you want to be: 1. Uncle Dave, the black 2. Uncle Dave, the gray, or 3. Uncle Dave, the white?
Its your decision, your choice, and your ethics. Someone once said that, "Character is made or unmade every day by the choices we make".
My very best prayers and wishes are yours, Steve
_________________________
Some see, some don't, some will, some won't
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#177487 - 02/06/04 03:49 PM
Re: Partnership woes / ethics ...........
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 12800
Loc: Penn Yan, NY
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This is business, not Sunday school. The rules are not the same, and even so - I have extended more than a few musical "olive branches" to this drummer. My question of proper ethics was answered B4 I even posted, but I worded it as such to provoke debate and get some outside insight. Thanx to all who chimed in. Here are my facts about this whole deal: #1) It's only HIS job till he looses it #2) It's expected of me to do MY best work #3) It's dificult to do my best when I'm being compromised by things that are out of my control. #4) Ultimatly, the ROOM is the leader. It is my responsibility to please the patrons first, the managment second, me third and everyone else after that. Sorry, but the drummer just lacks seniority in the musical food chain here. Thanx again to all who participated in this, but the issue of right or wrong is not the question. I've been right about my feelings all along. I just need to decide how to handle the mechanics of separating this duo. I will be as painless and tactful as I can, but this is my livelyhood, and it simply CANNOT go on in this fashion. Off to work ! (as a soloist ! Ahhhhhh )
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No longer monitoring this forum. Please visit www.daveboydmusic.com for contact info
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#177488 - 02/06/04 04:26 PM
Re: Partnership woes / ethics ...........
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10427
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
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Originally posted by Uncle Dave: Sorry, but the drummer just lacks seniority in the musical food chain here. Off to work ! (as a soloist ! Ahhhhhh )Though the drummer may be at a lower skill level, it's still 'his' gig, and you're still working for him. Until that changes, he's higher on the food chain here. If the club management can't see it by now, I recommend quiting. There certainly gotta be better fishing spots out there in PA, isn't there? Dave, I think working as a solo entertainer better suits you (as well as many other solo performers, including myself) because only this way do we have more control over the outcome of our performance. I'll admit, these days when I work with other musicians, I hire them, not the other way around. I only work with experienced pro musicians who I've actually seen working, auditioned, or gotten as a referal from a fellow respected gigging musician. This avoids this kind of problem. - Scott
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#177491 - 02/06/04 11:58 PM
Re: Partnership woes / ethics ...........
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 12800
Loc: Penn Yan, NY
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Sorry guys, but you can't rattle me on this one. While it is true that I was hired as a sideman for this specific job - there is nothing to suggest that THIS job, or any other job is forever. I believe that this experiment has run it's course and it's time to revamp the entertainment for a few nights at this place. I am not stabing anyone's back here and you know it. I told the managment outright that i will not "take over" the night from the drummer. I told them that they would have to fire me and make some changes to bring me back, preferably on a different night. If my performance has made them realize that I am better suited for the success of the room, then it's time to make a business decision. No one has the right to a "gig for life". That's as ludicrous as bad teachers with tenure that can't be fired for poor performance. It's just wrong.
This case is really quite simple: I have treated this drummer with the utmost respect and generosity, but we are not a good pair, so I am ready to bow out of this duo. There is music many other nights in this same room and I have campaigned for one of those nights, as have many of my customers. So, if the house offers me a job - ANY job......it's not stolen, stabed, gray or otherwise. It's a job that I'm qualified for that they decide to offer me. End of story.
BTW, Ensnareyou ..... good to see you back. Missed you.
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No longer monitoring this forum. Please visit www.daveboydmusic.com for contact info
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