Hi Frank,
you've convinced me to put a bit more time & effort into the sound fonts.

I had been "checking" the reverb & chorus buttons in Live Synth pro and nothing much was happening. I'm happy that you you explained that doing that may not make a difference. ( thought it was just me not hearing a difference).

Looks like I better start reading the manuals. Forte obviously does a lot more than what I've been using it for, are you saying it has it's own set of effects?

I also purchased the Alive software a few days ago , but haven't had a great deal of time to spend on it ( again, I better get out the manual). I thought the purpose of it was to be able to import new fonts? ie to move them around and set them up as I want, does it also allow for me to change volumes ( for individual drum samples ) and do minor editing.

Might print out the manuals, might make for good bedtime reading ( haahaa )

Some of those other samplers you mentioned , Kontak, Giga etc with those I'd be back to needing extra memory?? ( I've got 512mb) and possibly a second hard drive? Not quite ready for that yet.

best wishes
Rikki


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 09-25-2004).]

Rikki, you just reminded me that I also adjusted the balance (volumes) within the styles to suit my needs. This you would need to do with any new or different wavetable that you choose to use. You would also need to change the balance if you change instruments within a wavetable, e.g., a different piano.
And you are right, in that, to make the software approach work for you, one needs to invest some time and understanding at the front end. If you just want to make music this approach is not for you!!!!!!! I nonetheless will keep recommending the software based approach and don't mind investing the time and money given the very high quality of the results. In other words I am willing to invest the time and money it takes to play pianos that sound like pianos, saxes that almost sound like saxes and so on.

In my previous post on effects, I should have added that it is not enough to check mark the effects in LiveSynth Pro. If the soundfonts do not have the reverb and chorus parameters set within each instrument you will end up with no effects. You could also end up with poor effects. As a result, I leave these effects boxes unchecked and use good quality effects within forte Ensemble, e.g., UltraFunk Sonitus Fx (Reverb, delays, chorus, equalizers, etc.).

Rikki, you may never be entirely satisfied with soundfonts for use as your Right/Left hand Lead/Melody voices. However, you should beable to get them up to satisfactory quality to run your styles. If you do not want to invest in things like Kontakt you could call up another instance of LiveSynth Pro within forte and use higher quality soundfonts many of which you can find free on the internet. But again I do not wish to talk you into things you don't like. You see once you are used to the Yamaha sound then anything different may not sound good to you. It is all in the ears of the beholder.

With respect to changing volumes you can change volumes within the styles by using one of M. Bedesem's programs. This would be the easist way to change the balance of all your instruments. I do believe you can change the volume level of each instrument or sample wave within Soundfaction Alive or Vienna. This would normally be done in the volume envelop parameters (delay, attack, hold, sustain, release, initial attenuation and so on). I am not certain how well this would work to trim the volumes of the individual drum instruments (hi-hat) within a drumkit. You could always give this a try. This could be tedious work!!!

forte Ensemble does not have effects and equalizers built in. You would need to find ones you like on the internet (free or price). There are many to choose from (DX or VST). You would install the instrument in the first column in forte and the effects in the second. Then you can make adjustments to suit your style of playing or music. I have sent you an Email.

I hope this helps. Again I am convinced that the software approach provides the best flexibility and quality ---- but don't let me sell you something you don't like (sound quality, time, money, etc.). Take it more as an alternative to the traditional hardware approach.

You can use software like Awave Studio or CDXtract to convert from other formats to soundfont. You can get some good results, e.g., GM500 piano to soundfont - 70 mb. This would be a better piano sound then what you find in sYnerGi GS.

Hi Frank,
I can also change volumes in OMB. I might check some of Michaels programs as well, just in case they're easier.

The individual drums ( velocity ) appears to be the biggest problem.

I spent a bit of time with Alive software yesterday. I noticed my Synergi Fonts were a bit all over the place ie some of the drums were in Bank0 instead of bank128 etc. Don't know if something went wrong with my initial download or whether i did something wrong. Anyway , not to worry, gave me good experience in learning how to replace and move fonts round the folders and create my own. Also strangely enough, to me , the smaller gm bank, sounded better with some of the styles than the larger gs bank. Probably me just imaginig things.

I've decided to try and do a bit of editing on the individual drums ( try and match the volumes more closely to my xg drum sounds ). In that way I may be able to use the same style for my piano's xg as well as for the soundfonts. )
In some ways it's probably easier to fix up the drum volumes in the font, than to try and fix up each individual style. ( At least I hope that's the case haahaa).


best wishes
Rikki


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank L. Rosenthal:

With respect to changing volumes you can change volumes within the styles by using one of M. Bedesem's programs. This would be the easist way to change the balance of all your instruments. I do believe you can change the volume level of each instrument or sample wave within Soundfaction Alive or Vienna. This would normally be done in the volume envelop parameters (delay, attack, hold, sustain, release, initial attenuation and so on). I am not certain how well this would work to trim the volumes of the individual drum instruments (hi-hat) within a drumkit. You could always give this a try. This could be tedious work!!!

Rikki, you should find the XG drumkits in Bank 127 and the regular GM/GS drumkits in Bank 128.

I can see that you must be very particular in trying to get the soundfonts to sound identical to the Yamaha XG instruments. I don't think you will succeed by trying to change velocity or volumes . It is more than that, e.g., harmonics, envelops, modulation, etc. In addition, Yamaha would have used different (their own) drum instruments then what you will find in any other available soundfont or other drumkit.

I would strongly recommend you stay with Yamaha hardware to do the job for you. Even the best drumkits or other virtual acoustic instrument out there today will not satisfy your needs as near as I can tell. If you want the Yamaha sound then Yamaha equipment is the only way to go.

Light weight alternatives might be Yamaha sound modules, e.g., the MU series. If you don't mind the high latency you could also try the Yamaha softsynth. There are soundcards out there that use the Yamaha XG chip. I think for these you need a regular computer.

I apologize for sending you down the wrong path. Sorry.


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 09-26-2004).]

Hi Rikki and Frank,

Forgive me if I'm intruding on your thread, but it was your discussions that "converted" me to the soft-based approach, and I wanted to let you know that I'm up and running with Sonar3SE (I'll upgrade to 4PE soon I think) the full-blown Kontakt, GPO, and an ecclectic array of sf2s.

No regrets at all! Thanks for turning me on to this. I'm just now getting back into a productive phase, as there is quite a bit of tech-like homework and tweaking to do. But as I actually learn how to use some of this stuff, I'm only more and more convinced that the learning curve and occasional settings/compatibility hassles are worth it.

I don't know if you're aware of this, but here's an interesting little tool for only $25:

http://www.cloneensemble.com/

On my wish list is a high quality bagpipes sample, Celtic instruments in general (I've downloaded some soundfont pipes that don't cut it), and one of those vintage warmers (is PSP as good as advertized?)

But although I have an 88 key digital piano (P120) for pianos and other "hammer" type voices, I'm pining for a dedicated midi controller with all the hands-on assignable features. Frank, I know you use an A37, but it seems to lack a dedicated mod wheel and USB. It's also more $ than the M-Audios (Radium61, Evolution MK 461c, etc.) as well as the PCR80 I've been looking at. It's terribly difficult to judge these things when I'm not situated to check them out in person.

If you have any pearls of wisdom on the matter, I'd gratefully listen. I'd rather spend the extra cash and get the Roland if there's a good reason to do so. While I don't need 76 keys, they sure wouldn't bother me, either.

Cheers,

Michael



[This message has been edited by Quasar (edited 09-26-2004).]

Quasar, I am very happy indeed that you are up and running with your software based system. Your system looks very powerful to me and should serve you well. I have seen some of your posts on the Northern web site.

Recommending a midi controller is hard to do. I like the Roland A37 because of the key feel and midi features. Yes, I too would prefer a modulation wheel instead of the joy stick - but that is a compromise I have gotten used to. I think you will note on the Northern site that many prefer the feel and features of the Yamaha digitial pianos & Motifs. I did not acquire any of these out of principle (no sounds and effects in my keyboard) - but that is just me. Also I use my system as an arranger and hence find it useful to have 76 note keyboard to accomodate the changes for fills, variations, intros, endings, etc on the lowest octave.

I to own CloneEnsemble. I prefer DecaBuddy and Antares. These are however very expensive.

For ethnic or other unique sounds have you looked at this site: http://www.boldersounds.com/index.asp

PS: Rikki, I'd be interested in hearing how the Live software treats you after you've immersed in it for a while. I got a "lite" version of this free with my audio card purchase, and wasn't willing/able to make much sense of it.

Unlike Frank, (who's forgotten far, far more about this stuff than I'm ever going to know,) I get confused when I have too many synths/sequencers/samplers on my HD at once. It's like my ASIO drivers get drunk or something.

But I've become convinced that he's right about making the sacrifices on the front end- in terms of both time and money- being well worth it.

Michael

Frank,
Do you feel that "Soundfaction Alive" is the easiest to use Soundfont editor for LiveSynth?
Also,if you have the opportunity,could you please test the latest SynthFont v.980 program(both standalone, and VST in Forte)with your LiveStyler, and let us know how they perform, and if they play the Styles correctly?

[This message has been edited by Vquestor (edited 09-27-2004).]

Vquestor, I am not certain whether Soundfaction's Alive is any better than say Vienna. I don't have as many crashes in Windows with it. In the end they get the job done but are of moderate overall quality. Keep in mind that soundfont technology is getting long in the tooth compared to say Halion, GigaStudio, etc. You can still get reasonable quality sound from soundfonts and should be good enough to run your styles with them. The 'big guys' don't use soundfonts.

The one thing I may still try (I keep talking about it) is Halion. I believe you can load a full GM Wavetable with it. If you can then you have a very good sampler to use with very good virtual acoustic instruments. This should get you top quality for both styles and melody/lead instruments.

I have just downloaded SynthFont v.980 and will give it a test run.

From past experience many of the soundfont sample players are not very good with Yamaha XG midi files or styles, e.g., rgc:audio sfz+. These samplers are setup for the GM format and store the drums in Bank 128 only. Yamaha styles call up the XG Drums from Bank 127 (16256). Now you would get all kinds of strange sounds playing. In addition the XG Drum Kits need to have the drum instruments rearranged to follow the note numbers for the GM standard.

So to make this work you would need to:

* Go into the style and change the drums in Channel 9 and 10 to Bank 128.

* Change the Drums to GM using something like OMB.

And now you are set to use sample players like Orion, VSampler, sfz+ and others.

If you don't make these changes you will get dogs howling, pianos playing, etc. where drums should be heard and hi-hats playing. This sounds terrible but if you are a young person with their whole life ahead of you these changes can easily be accommodated. I am to old bored and tired to do this. That is why I have modified the sYnerGi GS to suit my needs.


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 09-27-2004).]

Another thing I should add is that the Yamaha XG Wavetable often has something like 480 voices whereas sYnerGi GS has something like 200 plus voices. Now if your style calls up a voice in a bank and program number with nothing in it it will take the best guess instrument from those available. So again you may have to go in and make some changes in the styles or add the appropriate insturments in sYnerGi GS or any wavetable of your choice.

In my case, I like playing country styles so I had to add Pedal Steel, and other instruments. It took me a few hours of work to search the internet and my files and add good quality instruments to cover this genre of music.

So, yes it is an investment in time and money but it is worth it!!!!

Hi Frank,
it's really bizzare. The XG sound bank is bank 127. Some of the GM kits are mixed up with the Bank 0 sounds and some are in Bank128 .
Anyway I managed to get them all sorted and saved them into a new soundfont.
All well and good. Then I happened to notice, my 24mb GM soundfont had grown to 132mbs. My laptop doesn't appear to work properly with the Alive software. The 44mb gs font, when copied to a new font , grew to 312mbs. I then did exactly the same thing ie copied the gmfonts to a new soundfont, but I did it in my desktop computer instead and it worked perfectly. Problem is I need it to work in my laptop not the desktop.
I may need to forget about the fonts in the laptop and eventually I'll get to use them in the desktop.
Frank, I wasn't expecting the fonts to sound the same as my xg sounds. I'm not good with drums ( balancing the drum sounds in a track) , and I thought if I can match volumes of individual drums to my xg drums it might make it easier.

I don't regret having gotten involved with the soundfonts, it's been an interesting learning experience. Unfortunately as far as my laptop's concerned, I won't be able to do create my own fonts etc. When we move and I get hold of the desktop , I'll be able to get more involved again with the fonts.

May do a bit more fiddling round with Hypercanvas and see if that works better in my laptop. I noticed I can do a certain amount of editing of sounds.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank L. Rosenthal:
[

Rikki, I would have to take a look at your setup to know exactly what is going on with your drums. Could be that in Bank 0 you are seeing certain standalone drum instruments in the upper program numbers? If it is this could be ok. You can check this in your GM wavetable mapping. So you still could be ok. The drums your styles will be looking for are the ones in Bank 127 - XG Drums.

Rikki, take another look at some my comments of today. There may things that trigger an approach that my solve your problems. Using Soundfaction Alive in your laptop should not be a problem. I don't know why the wavetable size increased. You might try the optimizing feature in Alive to minimize the number of times the same wave is saved. I think there is a feature that if all your drumkits use the same Hi-hats that it will only save the wave file once - but you have to tell the software to do that. It might be called cleanup under the file tab.

Also you may have to run LiveSynth Pro with forte and call up Alive from it. I think Alive needs some sound source for monitoring the sounds. This is not need when you have a compatible soundcard, e.g., Audigy.

In addition, you can change the velocity of the various drum instruments using Alive. You can use M. Bedesem's StyleUpdater to change the velocity levels between the various instruments within a style.

Rikki something should work!!!

Rikki, if you can do most things in your desktop/regular computer then you are set. You would do all your editing there and then transfer the edited files via RW CDROM to you laptop. What's wrong with that. You can keep using your laptop to make music and your other computer for editing.

In fact, I do no editing on my dedicated music computer. All the editing (with some blue screens) on my general purpose computer. It keeps the music computer prestine.

I just saw this being addvertised with Sonar 4.0. I will be acquiring this update shortly.

TTS-1 multitimbral, multi-out GM2 synthesizer with authentic Roland® sounds

This might turn out to be a good softsynth alternative. I will let you know.

Hi Frank,
they downloaded that way, ie in the gs font, bank 0 I only had 111 out of 128 instruments, the rest I found in bank128 the gm drum bank.
Actually I could re-sort them all again ( in the desktop ) and copy the it to the laptop.

I just tried the cleanup function, and it did reduce it back down from 132mb to 30mb.
Now I'll have to check and see if it's all working.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank L. Rosenthal:

Rikki, the sYnerGi 200 should have about 200 voices and the SYnerGi GS should have more. There could have been a problem with your download or your installation after the download. This could cause you significant problems if there are instruments missing or located in the wrong Bank & Program Change Numbers.

I had no such problems - lucky me!!!

Hi Frank,
looks a bit like a Hypercanvas. ( Sonar synth)

After doing some more testing, I ended up ordering a Hypercanvas yesterday through PG Music. Saved a fortune compared to the price I was quoted here in Australia , so I'm really happy about it.

I'm Hypercanvas as my main synth for the styles themselves. Personally I need something that I won't be tempted to fiddle round with too much, ie with soundfonts, the temptation is always there to keep ugprading the fonts, which could also mean having to tweak the styles each time I upgrade an instrument, and I'd never get anything finished ( I'm a compulsive fiddler, haahaa) .

Like Michael ( Quasar ) I'll use some soundfonts, but more so in midifiles ie if I record a backing track using a style, use the fonts to add additional tracks.

Haven't thought too much about what to use for a main melody. I'm still happy playing piano with a midifile or arranger style for backing.

Feel like I'm on track again. (haahaa)

best wishes
Rikki

Hi Michael,
I think we're talking about 2 different programs. The one I was referring to is Soundfaction Alive. The one you've got "Live" came with your Audiophile??

I've got an Audiophile also, but haven't used it as I've decided to swap it for a controller type soundcard ( kill 2 birds with 1 stone). I only want the controller for portability ( they're only 2 to 3 octaves)so easy to take with me on trips, plus at home I can use it as a soundcard.
I mainly use my piano as my controller for use with OMB.

I think I've got "live" software also, but I haven't tried loading it just in case it needs to be registered.

best wishes
Rikki

Vquestor, I can't get any sounds from the SynthFont. I have to do more help reading to get this to work. I did notice though when this synth means GM it includes only 1 track for drums (channel 9). This means you have to do all the things I have already pointed out plus combine all the style drum tracks to channel 9. This is not difficult but you must do it to play drums instead of piano or other sounds. Other samplers are similar, e.g., VSampler, sfz+, etc. In other words if your style calls up a drumkit in channel 10 it will likely play a piano instead. So there it is. It can all be made to work - it is boring stuff - but the results can be exciting.

Once I get this thing to work I will let you know my findings.

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 09-29-2004).]

Frank,
I am not sure why, but I believe SynthFont labels midi channels starting with "0" for ch.1, so channel "9" is actually channel "10"

Sorry, to hear, it is failing the "free, but
actually works well" test, so far.

Your efforts and time are greatly appreciated.