I agree with Russ in that we are talking semantics ... Some of us look at an "entertainer" as one who engages the audience with a certain "shtick" if you will, while if a 'musician' doesn't do that he/she is not an entertainer ... personally, I think that, once again, it comes down to the venue ... If someone like Russ is playing in a quiet setting for people who are there to listen to him, and the audience enjoys what they are hearing, then he has entertained them and is an entertainer ... Would he be as successful in front of an AC crowd ... maybe not, but does his style make him any less an entertainer than Fran, Donny, Gary, DonM or some of the others ... not in his venue it doesn't, and the style of the aforementioned may not work at all in Russ' venue ...

As long as the customer goes home happy, we have ENTERTAINED !!! ... we may all do it in different ways, but that doesn't make one way 'better' than another ...

Personally, I have seen many entertainers who were not 'musicians' ... but rarely have I seen a musician who was not an entertainer in some venue ...

To paraphrase Donny "Whatever works, Baby!!!"

BTW ... Having heard his work, I can attest to Russ' "musicianship", and working as many gigs as he does, he must also be an "entertainer" ...

And having seen Donny at work, I can attest to his being an "entertainer" and a "musician" ....

Sorry, Fran ... I just haven't caught your act yet....

t.



[This message has been edited by tony mads usa (edited 11-09-2006).]

Russ, don't worry about the rant, I'm glad you did. I would have never known of your many accomplishments. There's lots of talent here, which is why I keep coming back I'm hoping that something from someone will rub off. Of course it's hard work, but rewarding for sure and I'm not talking all in the monetary department either.

On top of that I know your a gentlemen I remember the unsolicted phone call you made to me giving me some encouragement when I first started visitng the forum year and a half ago.



[This message has been edited by Stephenm52 (edited 11-10-2006).]

Stephen, Russ called me out of the blue back then too...but I wasn't home.........I never heard from him again

I wasn't home either he called my cell phone. He did try back again the first time he missed me the numbers on caller ID matched.

I am just teasing Russ...he is one of the "good guys"..

Wow! Who said jazz musicians were a bunch of stoic, intellectual, misfits, incapable of a good "rant". You tell 'em, Russ.


chas




[This message has been edited by cgiles (edited 11-10-2006).]

But Russ, what have you done LATELY?
Just kidding.
Here's some nearly useless information:
Do you know that when you edit a post more than once, you can delete the other lines that say, "this post edited by so-and-so"?

Of all the people on the SZ, I think I would like to catch Russ's "non-show" the most.
Anyway, there is more than one way to catch a fish, or book a job, or entertain an audience.
Personally I have made hundreds of dollars in the music business myself.
DonM

O.K. Just to explain, hundreds isn't very much. It's a little joke.

Don,

I'm working on my second million--I gave up on the first!

Cheers,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

Well I can hardly argue with Russ's credentials.

I hope I can do half as much in MY lifetime.

It's also hopeful to me that he is still in the business at his age (in his 60's??) - I am half that age and worried about longevity already (!)

I do notice however that he signed off with "MUCH care and RESPECT" etc after having uttered the line...

"I laugh a little at the "entertainers" who place style over substance (not my preference, obviously)."

I'm not sure that was such a respectful thing to say.

Perhaps he is talking about the WORST kind of entertainer that degrades two art forms ("Musicianship" and "Entertaining") I'm not sure.

You see, whilst there ARE many forms of "Entertaining" (a broad term to be sure) I think that being an Entertainer AND a Musician are two seperate (yet of course "linked") art forms, and I myself am struggling to be good at both.

I don't think anyone should be derisive of either.

I know myself coming from an acting background (college trained) that it's an art to entertain the audience even with simple, direct, topical stage banter - hell there's a lot of different ways to do even THAT!

In my Duo work, I work with my wife to be a "serious" musician AND vocalist AND Entertainer (I'm a vocalist first, an Entertainer second and a Musician third) but there you have 3 distinct, difficult and involved disciplines.

I'm still waitng for the day when I get good at all 3!!!

Here's hoping....

Hmmmmmm, while that's mostly true - it's dated. I really have had a metamorphasys of sorts. I think I need new venues to support my new style, but I believe they're out there. I can work 6 nights a week in loud, tacky, make-believe la-la land joints, like I used to, but I just don't want it anymore.

Fran's right that I have never been a "player's player". I was schooled on woodwinds in thge seventies, and could hold myown on clarinet, sax and flute for a whiule, but as disco took over - I switched to piano, then arrangers and I miss the actual "playing" I did before I started working.

We all make sacrifices for our lifestyle, and I just decided to sacrifice a different PART of mine. I'll get by on less money for a while and see if I can stay happy that way.
It would be a death sentance for me to go into a top40 sequence room again. Yuk.
And the senior jobs are mostly days, and now I have the "kids", so I'm forced to restructure my performance dates.

For the record, at tonight's show - I'll be performing with some of my students before and after the play, so I still get a chance to jam !

Entertainment comes in many forms. I looking for the audiences that are not trying to yell, scream, pick up a lover, sing-a-long, or act stupid.

There MUST be someone out there like that !