Ok guys, after a LONG hard two year deliberation, I finally took the $ PLUNGE and ordered a MusicPad Pro 'Plus' PC tablet style 'sheet & fakebook music viewer-reader': http://www.freehandsystems.com/products.html

Picture: MusicPad Pro: front view

Picture: Music Pad Pro: attached to portable mic stand

I've long been searching for not only a digital paper-less backup of my immense sheet music & fakebook music library, but an all in one portable sheet music viewing device (which could HOLD my entire repetoire + all potential gig song requests) in ONE portable place for use both in the studio and onstage. I had the opportunity to get a personal demonstration (2 years ago) of an early generation version of the Music Pad Pro (MPP) and was impressed by many of its features. The MPP allows you to store thousands of pages of sheet music, custom organize them by category & call them up quickly . You can activate page turning or the 'next song' in an optional playlist via footpedal or finger tap on the screen itself. In addition, you can make minor edits/additions to specific notes, chords, or lyrics by simply writing directly on the screen itself onto a 'separate' layer, which doesn't affect the original. I find this to be a particularly useful feature as I frequently like to notate note/chord sub-stitutions. I also like the ability to markup the music with 'arranger' keyboard 'registration transition' instructions etc. The MusicPad Pro gives
you the opportunity to do this without affecting the original music. In addition, the Music Pad Pro includes USB ports which allow you to attach a removeable USB pen drive for multiple up to ONE gigybyte each, swappable storage.

My past reservations about purchasing the MusicPad Pro was that I would have had to spend countless hours scanning & converting thousands of pages of leadsheets into digital format, but recent availalibity of most all of my sheet music & fakebooks in PDF format now, have eliminated much of that painstaking task. The MusicPad Pro is able to recognize and IMPORT (via USB) most all standard graphic format files (from pdf, gif, tiff, to jpeg) as well as Microsoft Word Documents or any file which is able to be PRINTED out on your computer.

I've also seriously considered purchasing a laptop PC for viewing music & lyrics on stage, but currently no Windows or Mac programs offer the specific sheet music viewing/editing capabilities of the MusicPad Pro. A laptop of course offers more flexibility (including Midi/audio file playback) and power in OTHER areas as well, but as far as a dedicated sheet music display & markup music editing go, and with the size and dimensions of a standard music book (along with no keyboard obstruction) the Music Pad Pro appears to be the best (albeit more costly than I'd like) solution for me.

I realize that digital sheet music viewers are still in their infancy and that there will surely be more features added in the future, including midi editing & playback of the music. Because the MusicPad Pro includes a user downloadable OS and ALREADY includes a midi playback speaker, it's already setup for midi
implementation if/when that feature is added in a future OS software update.

The GOOD thing is that the Music Pad Pro includes a full 30 day money back guarantee if forever reason it doesn't meet my expectations. I'll give a full evaluation of this unit once I've had the opportunity to use it at home and on the job. I hope to receive it (by mail) by the end of the week (or next Monday). I can't WAIT to test drive this baby.

Scott

I've drooled over that thing for over two years. But it's SO expensive and a laptop would do so much more, so I didn't go for it. Of course, if somebody would give me one, that would be great.

Good for you, Scott. Keep us posted on how it works out.

Glenn

Semilive, I felt exactly the same way before, but the fact is that: a PC laptop (I have one) with Windows/Mac software DOESN'T offer the IMPORTANT sheet music viewing, editing, & performance capabilities of the MusicPad Pro:

1) large 'portrait format' bright screen
2) 'hands-free' page turning
3) ability to create unlimited custom playlists
4) Song page markup & annotation
5) lightweight slim design with no keyboard to fold down & obstruct

It's only because of the now recently available music (including entire fakebooks) in digital format, that I've finally decided to take this plunge. I'll keep you posted AFTER I've finally had the chance to give this device a REAL test. I guess I'll be living on red beans and rice for a while now. Scott

Scott,

You can get it at amazon.com for $100 less. Make sure you get their price: $1099. I think you told me that they were going to give you a discount.

It looks incredible. Just too expensive for me. I would snatch it at $500.

Beakybird

Beaky, yep, in addition to the $100 discount from Amazon, I also had a $100 Xmas Gift Certificate pending with them as well, bringing the cost down to $999. Still high, but hey . . . a new year's diet of red beans and rice (southern style) will not only save me $ but be healthy too, right? - Scott

Where do you find available music (including entire fakebooks) in digital format?
Are you talking free or pay? Not that it matters if it is something I'm looking for.

------------------
qqqwq@hotmail.com

[This message has been edited by mikeathome1 (edited 01-04-2005).]

Mike, here are just a FEW sources:

http://www.musicnotes.com/

http://www.freesheetmusic.net/

http://sunhawk.com/

http://www.laurasmidiheaven.com/SheetMusic.shtml

http://www.theguitarguy.com/songs.htm


Scott

Wow! Thanks for taking the plunge for us Scott! I have been seriously considering on of these for months, but I decided to wait until after NAMM to see if anything comparable came out. There's nothing else like the Music Pad Pro that I know of right now, and I agree that a laptop isn't really comparable. The only other thing I thought might be an option for electronic sheet music would be if you used Scorch XF midi files, particularly with the Tyros, PSR3000 or other Scorch-compatible instrument... but you guys don't rely on SMF's enough to do that I think. I still think your going to wind up doing some scanning even with the downloadble music... what will you do when you have to transpose or rearrange actual sheet music? Well, BIAB and Acrobat will create pdf sheet music as one option... I'm sure there's many more.

Anyway, I will be very interested to hear your experiences with your new device... good luck. And thanks for the music links. I may be a Music Pad Pro user soon too.

Scottyee, thanks for the links!

Nice think that MusicPad Pro! I'm sure I'd love to have one too, but right now I'm still "recovering" from my purchase of the SXA360s.

Thanks in advance!

Luis Santos

[This message has been edited by Luis.Santos (edited 01-05-2005).]

Luis:

I'm not sure who posted it originally but the link to the downloadable fake books is:
http://www.musiciansroom.net/eBooks/default.aspx

There was (is?) another model that came out about the same time, over two years ago. I don't recall the name but same concept.

If money weren't an issue, these devices are DEFINITELY the ideal for someone like me. With hundreds of originals and hundreds of covers. I continue to struggle with lyrics. I fake it well but with one of these, I could fake it a whole lot better.

Although, I always assumed you could SOMEHOW rig up a laptop to scroll lyrics as you played.

I very seldom read on stage, but I do occasionally, when perfroming something new in my repertoire. In these cases - I have a NotePad file ( Word has too much wasted space in the doc )that takes up about 1/2 the screen. A simple push of the "enter" key opens it up, and I move the cursor into the scroll bar .... that way, the
mouse button scrolls in a flash.
There is always a second or two that you can move your hands around, so when a page turn is needed....just reach up - hit the button and BAM! you're there. Rarely do I have more than 2 pages .... they are only lead sheets or lyric sheets, not notation.

If you read a lot, I can see justifying the purchase of such a gadget, but I stand by my decision to perform as much as possible from memory. I don't want to rely on a crutch, even if I only need it once in a while.

From a "gadget" stance ..... it's a very cool toy, but for that cost - I think the thrill would have to last me for a long time...then there's the additional cost (or time) in getting the music INTO the unit. Hours and hours of scanning, editing, cataloging....just seems like more time than I have to devote to something that's very trivial in my shows.
Sometimes, for a wedding song - I'll just scribble a few chords on a 3x5 index card and sit it on the laptop ..... I don't want to take my eyes off the bride !

[This message has been edited by Uncle Dave (edited 01-07-2005).]

SemiLive: I believe you're referring to the earlier model (same brand) of the MusicPad Pro Plus, because as far as I know, Freehand Systems is the only company (so far) with a device like this currently for sale.

On the other hand, here's a bit of the LATEST news re: electronic sheet music devices. There is ANOTHER company (eStands):
http://www.estand.com/products.html

currently in the final developoment stage of producing a competing eMusic device which will directly compete with Freehand System's MusicPad Pro Plus. Unforunately, from what I've heard, their devices are going to be even more costly to purchase. On the other hand, the eStand solution includes a Windows XP software driven OS, which will make it possible to run on a standard PC (Windows XP) or PC laptop computer as well. If this software which promises to accomplish the same features as included in the MusicPad Pro, then this (if software is priced low enough) may be the best economical solution to editing, managing, and displaying eMusic both in the studio and on the gig.

Like I've reinterated before, my purchase of the MusicPad Pro Plus includes a risk free 30 day full money back (no questions asked) return policy. If it doesn't work out, no big deal. The purpose of this device is not merely for use ON STAGE, but even MORE SO, for rehearsal work in the studio. The ability to conveniently mark-up the music, be it a lead sheet, lyric-chord chart, or fully flushed out score, is of paramount importance to me when working up an arrangement for my show. This affords quick edits/changes without pencil/paper, and then just having to take ONE electronic pad (no extra fakebooks, sheets of paper to lose, or fly away, etc) to the gig.

And yes Uncle Dave, 'of COURSE', as has been REPEATEDLY reinterated by both you and me here, we must NEVER let music lead or lyric sheets become a stage distraction. Though performing EVERYTHING completely memorized or by ear is preferable, I see nothing wrong with using lead and/or lyric sheets when required, as long as they don't distract you from your performance or draw attention to your audience. Because of the nature of our work, there is NO WAY we can be expected to know the RIGHT chord changes or lyrics to EVERY song request out there. If one's repetoire is limited to 100 songs, I might expect full memorization, but there are thousands of other songs which I'm familar with and can play (on the fly) too, if only provided a lead sheet/chords & lyrics. Hey, fullfilling often obsure song requests can often reap the biggest tips, and I'm NOT ashamed use a lead sheet as a crutch if I have to.

Ok, as I said before, I promise to give you guys my hands on candid impression of the "MusicPad Pro" soon.

Scott

Scott,

I hope this device works out for you. What is the screen resolution? Is it sufficient to see the entire song on one page? or do you have to page through it? if so, how do you do it without taking your hands off the keys?

Regards,
Alex

Nope Scott, I am 100% positive there was another. I will search.

Actually, I just remembered it. It was called Estand.

EDIT: And the site is http://www.estand.com/ , of course.

[This message has been edited by SemiLiveMusic (edited 01-05-2005).]

Good luck! It's a nice addition to anyone's setup.

Resolution: 1024 x768
Size: 13.3" x 9.9" x 1,8 thick (under 5 lbs) both Portrait & landscape modes supported

Page size equivilent to a standard music book or large fakebook page. You move to subsequent pages by simply tapping the screen or (hands free) via remote footpedal.
http://freehandsystems.com/products.html


SemiLive, if you re-read my last reply, eStand is the very SAME company that I mentioned that's still yet to come out (soon) with a similar product. They have NEVER released this device (for sale) previously.

Scott

Many thanks Synth_Guy, Jim the Pro, Beakybird, GlennT, Alex, and the other 'non' nay sayers here for your best wishes regarding the MusicPad Pro Plus. I promise to let you know how it WORKS out.

Scott

100% agreed Dave....take away the all the sheets and look into the audiences eyes
memorizing is a powerful tool on stage!!

Donny, if that's the case, you guys are going to need to STOP relying on your laptops as a crutch as well. - Scott

My laptop is a jukebox for breaks or DJ work. No crutchs here!

Face it! Uncle Dave. You rely on crutches too:



Can't READ music eh?!

Lead sheets, lyric sheets, notation or whatever, these are all onstage crutches we ALL benefit from using (from time to time).

Scott

Is an Arranger Keyboard a crutch?!?!?
t.

Sorry - nope. I often don't even turn on the pc till it's break time. I've played most night without it at all. I hate crutches, and never rely on them. That's not saying that I never use a lyric or chord chart ..... it's just an extremely rare, and isolated event.

I think music is for pit bands. The front man should never read on stage. Or at least ..... never get caught reading.

Uncle Dave - sincerely - WTF are you doing here if you don't want to talk about the MERITS of the Music Pad Pro? This is a valuable topic to some of us, yet you waltz in here making yet another series of your narrow-minded statements just because YOU don't use music on stage. Does that mean the rest of us can't even talk about it without hearing from almighty you? Music is a crutch? Centuries of great musicians have used music on stage and still managed to entertain their audience - you could learn a lot from them if you weren't so limited in your view. I don't understand your need to put down other people's choices when it comes to playing in favor of your own except that you are an arrogant and self-absorbed individual.

Esh.... These are opinions, pal. Many readers need alternate takes on a subject to determine it's validity and usefulness for them.
I have certain ideals about stage presense, and I stick to them. My thoughts about reading are not isolated to my stage either.
No need for ruderies ( WTF ).
I'm just adding my part to the mix. You wanna go buy one of these things ..... you'll be better armed in the decision because of these varied posts.
Variety is the spice of life, right?

U.D. I'm going to have to agree with Esh. It is not a sin to use music, fakebooks and charts during a performance.

I play a song a few times and can then throw away the music. My wife who is a very accomplished pianist and pipe organist can't play Happy Birthday without a chart. The ability to not use music is a gift that not everyone has. Our lead trumpet player who can play anything in any key can't sing Proud Mary without the lyrics even though he's sung it 300 times. These things are gifts.

Esh can we take the anger down a couple of notches and knockoff the profanity? Neither are really necessary to make your IMHO very valid point.

Tom,
Reading is no crime, in fact I know many players woule be lost without charts. I just feel very strongly about the "front man" approach, and as a solo entertainer, I'm definately out in front.
And I'm sure that if your trumpet player really wanted to ... he could memorize Proud Mary. It's a case of priorities. It must not be that important to him.
The benifits of memorizing a song go so much farther than just allowing eye contact. It allows the performer to "connect" more fully with the song without the barriers of sight.
It's just one take on it, but your opinions are always well stated.....unless you're making fun on Don Mason or me !

No. This is still typical of your condescending nature. Your post is again riddled with put-downs... I don't even think you are capable of discussing a topic without resorting to this. Let's see how the shoe fits the other way around:

I am as much a solo entertainer as anyone on this forum, and I choose to use music... choose being a very important word. It's not a crutch or a limitation or a lack of priorities. My "priority", as you put it, isn't to memorize "Proud Mary" much less to play in places where it would be needed. My priority is to play great and often complex music the BEST and most accurate way. If I did play the same stuff that many common bar acts do then I certainly wouldn't need to read music either. When I sit-in with common bar bands it's totally without music and usually without rehearsal, because we're going to play the SOS that bar bands have played for decades and we know it. But when I play solo I am not playing easy bar music and I'm making a conscience decision to use the best tool available - written music.

Any professional speaker would know how to use their notes or prepared text and still make eye contact with the audience. It's a sign of their professionalism. Reading music is no different but it may require skills that less capable musicians might not have.

I wish I could go without seeing the lyrics. I can do, I'm guessing, a thousand songs without looking at charts or lyrics, but there are many more with which I use the laptop to see lyrics/chord changes. It has to do with the situation. I play in a lot of places where there are many off-the-wall requests. Tips are good in these places, and I often make more in tips than what the job pays. For example just last night I had a request to do a song I haven't done in many year. Had to use the lt to remember the words.
In other places, such as my up-coming casino job, I will do mostly pre-planned sets, no requests, no charts. I'm looking forward to it.
You guys can bash personalities as much as you want. I'm not going to do it any more. I'll just ignore the flames and assume everybody means well.
Famous last words.
Alfred E. Newman is still my hero.
DonM



[This message has been edited by DonM (edited 01-07-2005).]

Hmmmmm, "common bar bands?"
and that's NOT a put down?

There is nothing common about sharing a love of music with others ..... for profit or not, but it is so nice of you to mingle with us commonfolk once in a while.

C'mon ..... this is getting too weird. This thread was not about this.

"Common bar bands" was a put-down, which is what I meant by turning the shoes around. Much of my last post contained less than subtle put-downs, just like all of yours in this thread. Now that you recognize them, perhaps you'd like to avoid using them yourself. Maybe that's not what this thread was about, but it's time that it was said.

Maybe I see more than just the "merits" of this unit. I see some real drawbacks that I thought deserved attention. Apparantly, you and I disagree. Wow.

U.D. If you can't pick on your friends then you shouldn't pick on anyone. I've thought the same thing about our trumpet player, maybe he's not interested enough to learn the lyrics.

It's too bad that some of us here on the forum have to demean ourselves by playing Proud Mary for those awful people in those awful places where they PAY US to hear it.

Tom

Yeah ..... These people are so needy! Play this, play that .... why don't they want to hear MY stuff ?!? ?!?

What a crazy way to make a living, huh?

If you can discuss the Music Pad Pro without making derogatory remarks about musicians who prefer to use music on stage, your views will be welcome I'm sure, even by me... fair?

In fact, Scott and I had a discussion earlier today about PDF resolutions... the Music Pad Pro (MPP for short) doesn't seem to be doing too well importing those downloadable fakebooks. Scott is working with Freehand support for a solution but I suspect that highly compressed PDF files might present a display problem for the MPP. We'll wait and see what Freehand says but I'm betting the news won't be good.

Also we discussed how you go about selecting files... say if I'm looking at "Ain't MisBehavin'" and get a request for "Somewhere My Love", how do we get there quickly? Apparently you do this Windows-fashion, by selecting the PDF from from the appropriate folder (using a supplied stylus I think). Not the fastest or handiest method but that's probably the only way to do it. Maybe it's faster in actual use. The MPP really wants you to setup "playlists" or songlists in advance for instantly moving from one selection to another. So requests or randomly choosing songs may take longer than we'd like, or it may just take getting used to.

The MPP seems a less than perfect solution at the moment, but I'm still hopeful.

I honestly did not aim any slander towards anyone. I stated my preferences, but your point is well stated, and taken in kind.
I don't want to argue.

Uncle Dave, I really think you're just a HYPOCRITE blasting me & others because we may occasionally use chord charts or lyric sheets when performing, and now exploring the possiblity of the MusicPad Pro for not only this purpose, but for studio reheasal work too. I find having charts handy, not only convenient, but a neccesity to fulfill audience requests for songs which I may be familiar with, but just don't know the changes or all the lyrics to.

Yes Uncle Dave: we've discussed this MANY times before, and you 'ALREADY KNOW' that I concur (with you) that a successful stage show requires 'no music' on stage by the lead performer, but for those daily grind bread & butter bar-restaurant, nursing home gigs (where BOTH you and I work) of where the atsmosphere is a lot more relaxed & casual, relying on a fakebook or chord chart & lyrics now and then, or even MORE than less: is "NO BIG deal", and even lends to the folkiness of the affair.

Frankly Uncle Dave, I have to agree with Jim Eshleman (Pro), because I realize the ONLY REASON you decided to BRAG (yet again) about how you don't rely on music chart props (of which you now confess that you do ), is because you just wanted to RAIN on my parade about the MusicPad Pro.

I'd don't normally bother to respond to your often frequent tactics to comment on topic threads which really don't bear your interest other than an excuse for you to to distract the member's interest BACK on "YOU" again, but like the Pro, I think this time, this particular one warranted me voicing my feelings.

Scott

Scott,
You couldn't be more off base, but if that's really the way you feel, I will refrain from including you in any of my discussions if it will make you feel better.
It's pretty clear that you don't want to hear what I have to say, so I'll stop including you in the mix.

huh?!
Uncle Dave, I think you've got it totally turned around. Who's the one who initiated this discussion thread? I believe it was me, not you. Remember?



Not true. What you said was NOTHING more than what you've repeatedly said so MANY times before when I brought up this same topic (of using music when performing) in the past. I believe I made it patently clear (on repeated occasions) that I DON'T advocate or rely on music (on stage) as a crutch any more than you do, yet you continue to harp on the evils of using music props (ei: MusicPad Pro) or charts on stage, even though you yourself rely on them occasionally (laptop PC) yourself. It's because of this that I can't help but feel that your primary intention for bringing the matter up (once again) was just to 'needle' me. If I'm wrong about this, I apologize, but unfortunately, I'm not yet convinced. - Scott

Scott,
I'm making an exception to my new "gag" rule because I think you and I need some TLC on this subject.
I swear to you .... I do not "needle" you.
I simply stated my position on a subject that I feel is very important in the live performance business. Your thread brought that subject to the front, and I chimed in to use it as a vehicle for discussion. Nothing more.
I'll gladly lift the gag order, but I want you to be sure that we're on the same page here. We don't NEED to agree, but there are many people that are greatly influenced by our words here and it serves no purpose if bickering and confrontation enters the mix.

I don't expect everyone to adopt my style of performance, but I DO believe that almost everyone can benifit from at least "hearing" about it. Guys like you and I bring a lot to the table here .... let's stay focused on the info and put away the gauntlets. I hate confrontations.
Whattayasay?

Ya know both you guys need to "bury the hatchet" you are both valuable contributors here and you shouldn't let third parties get you all worked up, we need you more than that.
Even though UD can sometimes be abrasive I suspect it is not done with any malice or forethought. And I've noticed he is always the first to extend the olive branch and apologize.
And I've never heard you guys telling people to shut up, or use the kind of gutter language we've heard today.
So can't we all just get along? well most of us anyway.

I'm in! No more fussing and fighting !
peace?

Hey Scott

Have not really had a chance to read through this thread, but, congrats on the new gear.

I've been interested in that since I heard about it some time ago.

I am wondering how this would compare to using a lap top with Jos Maas' new omb which will apparently scroll scanned music, plus all the other stuff that's possible.

Will your new unit also play midi, wav or mp3's?

Scott

I'm certain that some of UD's offensive comments are unconsciencely made, but if we don't bring them to his attention as such then who will and when?

I get the impression that Dave's attitude in real life carries over into his posts - if something isn't done the "UD-way" then he discards it.

If you want to declare peace Dave then you really should rethink that attitude. I don't use a laptop on stage the way you do but I would never consider referring to your laptop as a "crutch" with the obvious implications (and Scott drew a very good parallel between your use of a laptop and his use of the Music Pad Pro). You are experienced and intelligent, so you have many ways of expressing your opinion without turning it into an insult or even leaving it open to interpretation as such. Since I've been on this forum, it seems to me that of all the regulars here your posts have more often provoked people than many others. If that's not the way you intend then stop waving the white flag and do some serious self-review. If your remarks are intentional then be prepared to take the same in kind from your peers.

You know Jim, in some ways you're right. I thought about this for a few minutes before I responded and here's my take on it.

In my personal life, I'm kind of a wise-guy with a big heart. I make fast jokes, quick comments, and have satirical views on many things around me.
I also take my kids to church each week, check in on my aging parents often, opened my home to a 19yr old kid that was about to become homeless, volunteer in my community, and help out whenever I feel my skills or advice can be of use.

I feel very comfortable here among these(you) people here and it is that comfort zone that takes my gaurd down at times. When I'm with strangers, I tone it it down a few notches, but as I get familiar with my friends, I let my lip run at a higher RPM. That's what happens here from time to time.

Anyone who knows me can absolutely attest to the fact that I attack NO one. I am not a fighter. I have never even BEEN in a fight. (I'm a baby when it comes to my hands!)

If a strong opinion gets misunderstood once in a while, and it's brought to my attention ...... I try to clarify my point. If feeling gets hurt because of the same .... I apologize.
I'm just not the politically correct, fence walking, Mr. Tact that some of you would prefer to talk to. I have some rough edges. It comes from life experiences. It comes from shattered hopes and broken dreams. We all have them, right?
Maybe someday, I'll be in a place where I can slow down the wit, and take more of a middle of the road stance on things, but right now .... I have an 11 yr old to finish raising. That means I need to work HARD for at least 10-15 more years to provide for her and her siblings. I am always on the go, and my "down time" is very limited.
At the end of my work day, after dealing with liars, cheaters, club owners and drunks .... I come home to the solice of my own little place where I'm safe and loved, and my forum friends are waiting. I come here to wash the dust of the day away, and there is always somthing that invites me to repond. It's like telling your kids about your day on the couch.... or talking to your wife in bed b4 you fall asleep.
It's a safe haven where we exchange ideas, and hash out the problems of the universe.

This is much like my own family. We have a large bunch of Italians on one side (Mom's)and when the whole gang gets together for dinner ... there are shouting matches, moral discussions, and heated debates about everything from teen sex to hot flashes!

My point is:
I give what I have. I offer my help, my home, my affection ... all with no strings. If you need me - I'm there. Sometimes, my words may sound a bit sharp, but I'm speaking in terms that apply to the real world of the music business.
Sure, we'll all have different takes on it, and we all use our own local coloqualisms to express our thoughts (eg: you say musos all the time ..... I never heard that around here)
Printed words have no feeling. The emoticons and smilely faces help to clarify the meanings, but it can nevr take the place of eye contact, human touch, or vocal expression.
I LOVE the internet, and specfically email, but the more we get attached to the "font" instead of the voice .... these misunderstandings will occur.

With all that said ....... I think we understand each other most times, and your points are well stated. I will try to remind myself that we are practicing in an inperfect medium here, and that a little sugar can go a long way .... even on a low carb diet.

I sincerely hope no one really thinks I'm a bad guy just because of some misinterpeted,poorly typed words.
I'm here to help, and I value you all very much. That's the truth ... no sugarcoat needed!

Peace

What a bunch of crap....dave no need to lower yourself or explain yourself to unknown text on a PC screen or to anyone.... just be yourself........and enjoy life
its too short ......sheeeeesh!!

I offered to bring a 19 year old into my home too...but she didn't want to come home with me....

Dave talk for hours with your wife before falling to sleep....no wonder your twice divorced..

Oops..are we suppose to be at the BAR..

Uncle Dave, thank you for sharing this personal insight.

And thanks to all who make such wonderful contributions here.

I for one certainly appreciate the divergent opinions I read in this forum; they sure make me think and evaluate my own position!

------------------
Graham

Only if there's a phone handy