Fran, given you may well be the wisest member of this forum I though I would seek your advice (humble).

Does Styleworks 2000 (or Yamaha) convert styles to the GM format? If it does could you do 2 conversions from the PSR 9000 (Swing2 and the bigband with a tempo of 135 (forgot the exact name)) to GM? If this works on my system this could be an effective solution (expensive) to the XG to GM drums issue.

If you can convert them you could send the conversion to my email.

flr@mts.net

.......brown noser !

Hi Frank,
some of this (free) software might be of use to you.

All sorts of great psr utilities.
http://www.svpworld.com/util_midiplayer.htm

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank L. Rosenthal:

Dave, it worked. It is starting to look like you guys cannot separate Fran from his G1000. What is this - a life time union??? It may take the intervention of the supreme court or something.

rikkisbears, thanks for your advice. I have tried those programs and they go part way but do not translate the individual drum instruments within a kit from XG to GM. Even OMB has some features that improve the playing of styles on a GM Wavetable - but no cigar!!! Furthermore, it looks like Styleworks also may not solve the problem.

Oh well the hunt continues!!!

I should note that I could do the drum instrument translation using GNMidi. I would need to make a translation for each drum kit and then apply this translation to the midi part of each style. I would then need to combine this midi part with the CASM using something like CasmEdit.

Sonar 3 can do the translations and they sound good but I have to save it as a Sonar Project. I have not found a way to save it as a midi format 0 for combining with the style's CASM. It is getting closer.

Once I can implement an effective and efficient solution I will be away to the races. This will allow me to use some very high class drum kits, e.g., Drumkit From Hell, etc. It will allow me to abandon the Soundfont wavetables for other alternatives (e.g., Edirols Hyper Canvas, or my own home made versions, etc.).

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 11-20-2003).]

Frank,
Fran is still married to his original wife.
He drives cars till they are worthless.
He has been my friend through all sorts of mood swings and crazy changes .......
It doesn't surprise me that he's keeping a kb he likes.

We DO buy and sell a lot of toys in the search, but he's always said that the G1k was his baby. It's a real BIG baby, but it's his, at least.

Hi Frank,
I should have checked the program a bit more thoroughly before I suggested it. I'd only read what it did, and must have misunderstood.
I tried my EMC program also, ie I loaded the style in and then resaved, made no difference to the drums, as far as I could tell they were still the same.

There's now supposedly vers6 of OMB, only read it a few minutes ago, so I haven't had a chance to check yet.

I'd love to find a solution to the problem too. I'll let you know if I ever do.
best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank L. Rosenthal:
[

rikkisbears, thanks for your advice. I have tried those programs and they go part way but do not translate the individual drum instruments within a kit from XG to GM. Even OMB has some features that improve the playing of styles on a GM Wavetable - but no cigar!!! Furthermore, it looks like Styleworks also may not solve the problem.

Dave, Fran is a lucky guy and his rate of return on his investment is way large. We need to find another Robin Hood!!!

Frank,

I understand from previous e-mails that you have 2 problems with the drumsounds in Yamaha styles.

1. Yamaha styles use drumbank 16256 instead of 127.
2. You want to remap the drum notes.

The drumnotes converter in OMB is for that purpose. I used it to convert hundreds of arabic styles.

You should first make a conversion table for the remapping of the drum notes. Then in the style window:

1. Press the Ctrls button. Press the msb button. Change the value in the drum track column(s) to 0. Press the lsb button. Change the value to 127. Press the exit button.

2. Select the menu option Tracks/Convert. Select the drum tracks. Select "in all parts". Press apply.

3. Save and load the next style

In many (badly) converted styles the patch/bank and other controllers are repeated in each part of the style (they should be defined only once per style). To deal with that in step 1 in the Ctrls window, select the option "apply this value style wide" and double click on the value on the first row. All the controllers of the current selected type in this column will be moved to the control area.

The main problem in this all is defining the drumnote conversion table. But you have the definitions for GM and the XG drumbanks.

Jos

Jos Maas, you got it - that's all I need. I just need a friend to develop the translation table and use your OMB or GNMidi to do the job. A separate program where you can call up each style and with one mouse click do the job - would be nice. I am not certain but one would probably need a separate translation table for each drumkit. These translation tables could be built into OMB or M. Bedesem's MidiPlayer.

This is to challenging (lazy) for an old man in the twilight of his life - big & boring!!! However, the old man will do it when there is no other viable alternative. He is definitely not going back to hardware based solutions not even the G1000!!!

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 11-21-2003).]

Hi Jos,
I finally succumbed. I bought your program after I read you put a sequencer into the latest version. It's mainly the style editor/creator and the sequencer that interests me.

I haven't had a chance to thoroughly check out all the features yet, but are you saying that you can actually remap the xg drumset to a gm set ( maybe even match up my kn7 sets)and would those changes be recorded when I created a sequence and saved it as a midifile??
ie
the style has an xg drumset, I remap to GM, record it as a sequence, save as a midifile,play it back on a gm ( not xg ) keyboard.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jos Maas:

2. You want to remap the drum notes.

The drumnotes converter in OMB is for that purpose. I used it to convert hundreds of arabic styles.

Hi Rikki,

Let me first explain that you don't need to do any drum conversion to match your kn7. When you have GM mode selected as device type in the settings menu then OMB will apply techniques to get the proper drum sounds.

The drum conversion tool that I described previously was developed to convert drumtracks in styles that originally use non-GM drumset like the arabic drumsets on various keyboards. The XG drumsets are (extended) GM drumsets. The way OMB deals with that in GM mode is really as good as it gets. Both in real-time as in sequenced midifiles.

The reasons that I suggested Frank to use this tool to convert styles are:

1. He uses another real-time arranger that doesn't do any modifications for non-XG devices.
2. He uses non-GM banknumbers.
3. He wants to apply conversion techniques that are more specific.

In my view it is an illusion that there could be an automated way for that (point 3). Many styles were converted from other keyboards with drumsets that are different from XG drumsets.

Jos

Jos, Jos, you are such a nice person I don't want to start to disagree with you but......

If I understand your approach in OMB properly it ignores the extended part of the XG Drum Kit. Doing so makes quite a difference in the sound of the style. It sounds almost empty. As a result, I am looking for a more complete conversion. If you look at the extended part of the XG DrumKits it can be tranlated to fairly good (better) equivalents in the GM Drumkit. This sounds much better than leaving it out.

There is sometimes another issue and that is if a drumkit is picked, e.g, LiveStandard which has no equivalent in GM you could end up with some special effect in Bank 127 (hand claps, dogs howling, etc.).

Jos, and yes you can make a pretty good translation tables that will work well for 95% of the styles. You may need to make a separate translation table for standard, jazz, brush and other GM DrumKits. I did some of this many years ago just to get some XG midi files to sound ok on a GM Wavetable. In short it can be done and it sounds much better than leaving drum instruments out within a kit.

So in summary the issues of going from Yamaha midi files or styles to GM are:

Finding the correct drumkit
Finding the correct (best) drum instrument
Finding the correct Bank (special effects vs drumkits)

There are no significant issues going form GM to GM or from GS to GM. Further, most files are produced in these standards.

Once I am sufficiently motivated I will resolve them. I was just hoping something like OMB or Midi Player could incorporate the translation tables and we would be away to the races. And if it were a separate program I would be willing to pay for it!!!!!

Jos, after all this you are still a very good person.

Frank,

In GM mode the non-GM sounds are visually marked in the eventslist in OMB. I just checked the 30 styles that are included in OMB. 25 of them don't have any non-GM drumssounds. 5 styles each use one drumsound outside the GM range.

If you find styles that don't sound full and complete, then just don't use them. There are plenty of others.

Again, thinking that you can convert all styles to GM in an automated way is an illusion. Most styles that you'll find are converted from Roland, Korg etc. Most of the remaining original Yamaha styles are not XG, they use banks from the PSR550/PSR740/PSR2000/Tyros that are not defined in XG.

If you find a style that sounds interesting except for the drum track, then you can easily replace the drum track with that from another style using the import/export options in OMB.

Now here is another idea. When Yamaha makes a new set of voices for a new keyboard they also make new styles to match that new voices. You have made your own instrument the FLR2000, now you should also make your own new styles to match that. It's really not that difficult, you don't have to start complete from scratch. Copy a few tracks from styles and midifiles and modify it until you have a one-part-one-bar style. Only 2 seconds of music how hard can it be? Then it is all "copy and modify". Copy and modify to make more parts. Copy and modify to make fill-ins and intro's. Copy and modify to make the variations longer. It will take a day to do it right but you will end up with a style that sounds better on your gear then any style that you have now!

Jos

Jos, who am I to argue with you.

You might try two examples and play them on a Yamaha PSR or XG wavetable then try them with the OMB on a GM Wavetable to hear the difference I am talking about:

9000 Pro Swing2.sty
9000 Pro BigBand1.sty

You will notice a large difference (from the drums only) even with all the editing you suggest.

Yes, ignoring those styles that do not work is one alternative - almost all of Yamaha 9000 Pro/Tyros styles! I have the ability to use this alternative and have used it from time to time over the last 25 years. Yes there is less problems with styles converted from other keyboards, e.g., Korg & Roland. It was for this reason I checked with Fran to see whether there was a feature within Styleworks to convert Yamaha to a lowly SMF/GM format.

I am mostly concerned with the drumkits and not in general the other panel instruments of PSRs or the Tyros. I have far better voices in my wavetable and these are easy to select. It is just the drums where I am looking for a better solution. Even this is not urgent. sYnerGiGS does an excellent job at this point in time.

I am looking for a high quality solution even if I have to do it myself - oh well. I thought I would give this a try - that's all!!!

Thanks Jos for all your assistance. I value your participation.


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 11-22-2003).]

Hi Jos,
by the sounds of things,unfortunately , the solution at the moment is to leave the offending drum sound out. It could work in some instances , but in others it would be a disaster. I converted a psr waltz style recently and the main 3 drum instruments playing where brushes midi note no's 25, 26, bass drum 33. Unfortunately not one of them would have played correctly under gm or my kn7. I've noticed with quite a few of the styles I've checked, yamaha uses quite a few drums in their styles that are not within the GM scope.

I've noticed even with EMC , it doesn't always get the correct conversion for drums.

Fortunately my kn7 has a function that allows me to convert notes in a sequencer track ie I can convert all c1's(36) ( bass drum) to b0's(35) ( another bass drum) in one or all of the bars in the sequence. Problem is I still have to scroll through the whole drum track and identify wich notes aren't going to work lie brush drums ( midi note no 25 , 26,33) before I can convert them.

My old Notator program used to have converion facilities, and I also had another little cheap sequencer that used to split up a track into indiviual tracks ( ie 1 type of note per track) so I'd end up with all the snares on one track, allthe bass drums on another etc etc it was a great way of editing drums as I was able to change velocities on the tracks as well as transpose the track to get the correct drum sound. Not sure if any of the current day sequencers do that.

Don't get me wrong, I think your program is fantastic.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jos Maas:
[B]Hi Rikki,

Rikki,

There is a drum conversion tool in OMB. It is in the Stylemaker window in the menu tracks/convert. You have to define in a table which note has to go where. In the same table you can also adjust the velocity of each note.

I'll try if I can make a conversion table for the standard drumset in XG. I'm not sure if all sounds have suitable counterparts in the GM range though.

Jos

Rikki, yes you got it. Those are the kind of issues I am referring to. It is not an impossible task to prepare a translation table even if it will never be perfect. Once you have a translation table to the Drumkits in question, e.g., GM Standard vs Yamaha LiveStandard you can then use a number of techniques to resolve the issues, e.g.:

OMB as Jos describes
GNMidi & CasmEdit

There may be other ways such as using M. Bedesem's StyleMaker & Calkwalk. Sonar & Cubase SX also have translation tables but I have not figured out how to use them.

Now that Jos is involved - who knows we may get a very effective and efficient solution.


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 11-22-2003).]

Thank You Jos,
I'll go check it out. As I mentioned earlier , I've only just purchased your program.

Actually my kn has gm as well as an extended version called nx, so hopefully I may be able to set something up for the drums.

I'll let you know how I go.

Even though the arranger part of the program doesn't interest me personally, I think you've created some wonderful tools within the program for style creation.
I don't own a psr any longer, so I'm hoping to actually use your software to help me create styles for my kn7 insofar as using some of the editing tools you've made available, and now with your onboard sequencer, I hope to create a midifile from a style, then use my kn7's midi to style functions and create a style for it.
Even my VA7 has midi to style capabilities.

Lets also not forget that the EMC program can also create a style (for whatever keyboard you own) from a midi file, and you've also got a bit more control over the process.

I'm looking forward to getting stuck into your program

best wishes
Rikki


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jos Maas:
[B]Rikki,

There is a drum conversion tool in OMB.

I'll try if I can make a conversion table for the standard drumset in XG. I'm not sure if all sounds have suitable counterparts in the GM range though.

Jos

Hi Frank,
what is GN Midi,
I know what casmedit is ( I used to own a 9000pro) so I tried most of the free software available, but I don't know GN Midi

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank L. Rosenthal:

[ Once you have a translation table to the Drumkits in question, e.g., GM Standard vs Yamaha LiveStandard you can then use a number of techniques to resolve the issues, e.g.:

OMB as Jos describes
GNMidi & CasmEdit

Now that Jos is involved - who knows we may get a very effective and efficient solution.

Hi Jos,
found your conversion table for the drums. This is going to save me a heap of work.

There may just be a minor problem.

The drum tables on my keyboards are different to yours on OMB
ie

------------------------------------------
kn7 start at

C-2 = 0 etc
thru to ( c1 =36 = Bass Drum)
G8 =127
-------------------------------------------
GM

D#0 = 27
thru to (c1 =36 = Bass Drum)
E5 = 88
-------------------------------------------
PSR

C#-1 = 13
thru to (c1 =36 = Bass Drum)
G5 = 91

-------------------------------------------

OMB

C0 = 0

thru to

G10 = 127

-----------------------------------------

I tried a couple of conversions, but I had to do them under decimal, not notes.

If I'd done them via note conversion, and followed the drum kit table in my manual, they would have been incorrect. ie I would have been 2 octaves out.

My Psr Drum table was downloaded from a psr manual.

Either way, being able to do this ( even under decimal instead of note) is going to save me a heap of time, and the fact that I can also alter the velocity of the drum note (wow)

thanks again for a great program
best wishes
Rikki

Rikki, you are such a generous person. You could be letting Jos off the hook for creating a few translation tables within or for OMB. But who knows it may be Rikki who develops the translation tables from Yamaha to GM. I would take that too!!!

GNMidi is the 'Swiss Army' knife for midi files. It has many features for changing, fixing, etc. midi files including transposing designated notes per channel. You can take a look at the following site:
http://www.gnmidi.com/

The XG to GM drumset conversion table is available at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/onemanbandgroup/files/

Jos

Jos, you also are a generous person!!! I will test it and let you know how it works on my system.

Thank you for all your work on our behalf.

Frank L. Rosenthal

Jos, I tested a couple of Yamaha styles on various GM Wavetables (Ntonyx, Sonic Implants, Utopia)and, and........IT WORKS so much better.

For each style I had a minor job trying to figure out which is the correct drumkit to use (standard, jazz, brush, etc.). To do this I used CasmEdit and the job is done. Fast & Easy. In addition, there may be some tweaking needed with the Brush Kit, e.g., brush swirls/slaps/taps, etc.... but it is close.

For my system this provides me the opportunity to migrate from Soundfonts to higher quality sounds - especially the drums. Plus I have other high quality alternatives to LiveSynth Pro available to me, e.g., Hyper Canvas, VSampler, Sample Tank, Sonic Reality, Plug Sound, and others.

Jos you made my day.

Thank you

Frank L. Rosenthal


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 11-23-2003).]

Frank,

I'm happy when you are.

Rikki,

I'm using the "old fashioned" midi notatation that starts with C0. You just have to subtract two octaves from any note that is diplayed in OMB to get the notation that you use.

If you have adapted some styles to the KN7 sound it would be nice to see them appear in a special KN7 directory in the onemanbandgroup forum.

Jos

[This message has been edited by Jos Maas (edited 11-23-2003).]

Hi Jos,
I've done a couple to date, but they're not really psr conversions ( they're a mixture of BIAB, kn & psr style parts ( morphed , I suppose you'd call it) and actually not created using OMB.

I'm hoping to get some styles done using the OMB features like track import etc and that ever so handy drum conversion table feature. When I do, I'll be posting them to my kn7 yahoo style site and I'd only be too happy to post them to your site as well, but they'll be in kn7 format, is that actually of any use??

I better join the forum.

best wishes
Rikki

Hi Frank,
looks like we're both finally set, which is wonderful. Safer to let an expert like Jos do it ( I just downloaded his GM set also). My main aim is to get the drum setups to match my kn7 ( a fair bit of work, but going to be a real time saver for me, in the long run). Drum volumes has been my biggest headache. The psr and the equivalent kn7 drum , can have vary greatly in their volume,ie sometimes I end up with bass drums playing too loudly/softly, or brushes drowning out cymbals. Being able to adjust individual volumes is going to be so handy.
It used to be such a headache adjusting them note by note.

thank you for the link to the gnmidi site.
First up, I would have tackled the GM set, but, fortunately Jos got in first ( one less for me to do and a handy reference point.)


best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank L. Rosenthal:

Rikki,

No, I don't think the KN7 format will be usefull for OMB users.

Jos

Jos,
Could you please elaborate from which
keyboards the original Arabic styles you mention are from?
Also, for those Arabic styles from Yamaha,
could you also please tell me on which
channels the drum tracks are usually on?

I would like to assemble a soundfont that
has all the Yamaha oriental drumkits(much
like Frank has done with all the standard XG kits using SynerGigs). This would insure the
ethnic styles sound as they should, since
too many sounds have no counterparts in GM, GS, or standard XG kits. I am not necessarily interested in having the highest quality sounds available(at this time), but just want to use the original styles with their original sounds.
Thanks much for any assistance.

The arabic styles were from all kind of keyboards. WK2, G1000 and Yamaha A1000 were a few names. In Yamaha styles drumchannels are usually 9 and 10.

Jos

Hi Jos,
I'm actually using your software for something totally different to what you intended ie I'm not using it as an arranger or even using it to create psr styles.

I'm actually going to use it to create midifiles, that I can then turn into styles for my kn7000 using either the kn's own internal midifile to style functions, or use EMC's midifile to style function.

Your software has the ability to import & export tracks to a style, and also import midifile parts, which makes it a very usefull tool for creating new style parts. Mix n match or morphing I suppose it's called.
Better still, after purchasing, discovering that it even has a drum table which means I can set up drum sets to suit my kn7.

Now with you new sequencer function, I'm able to create a style by morphing, copy it into the sequencer & save it as a midifile, all within your software.

From there I can turn that midifile into a style for my kn7.

Admittedly it would be easier if I still had a psr, as your the style creation part of your software is designed to create a psr style.

Personally, I still prefer to play an arranger keyboard to playing via arranger software, but your software is a wonderful alternative for people who prefer using p.c's or for the budget consious.

Great program

best wishes
Rikki

Rikki I am so surprised.

Hi Frank,
that was rather long winded, wasn't it
(haahaa). Just pleased to find such a wonderful style creation tool.

best wishes
Rikki

Rikki, lucky for you and lucky for us that there are people like Jos making software for us!!!

Jos, many thanks for the info.
Could you please tell me where I can find these converted styles?

There is a collection of persian styles at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/onemanbandgroup/

The Psr-A1000 styles are at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/yamaha-psr-styles/ and the rest of the styles has probably been moved to the "vault" or spectromagic archive linked to that forum.

Jos

Thanks much Jos, I will check out those sites.