Hi Jos,
I finally succumbed. I bought your program after I read you put a sequencer into the latest version. It's mainly the style editor/creator and the sequencer that interests me.

I haven't had a chance to thoroughly check out all the features yet, but are you saying that you can actually remap the xg drumset to a gm set ( maybe even match up my kn7 sets)and would those changes be recorded when I created a sequence and saved it as a midifile??
ie
the style has an xg drumset, I remap to GM, record it as a sequence, save as a midifile,play it back on a gm ( not xg ) keyboard.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jos Maas:

2. You want to remap the drum notes.

The drumnotes converter in OMB is for that purpose. I used it to convert hundreds of arabic styles.

Hi Rikki,

Let me first explain that you don't need to do any drum conversion to match your kn7. When you have GM mode selected as device type in the settings menu then OMB will apply techniques to get the proper drum sounds.

The drum conversion tool that I described previously was developed to convert drumtracks in styles that originally use non-GM drumset like the arabic drumsets on various keyboards. The XG drumsets are (extended) GM drumsets. The way OMB deals with that in GM mode is really as good as it gets. Both in real-time as in sequenced midifiles.

The reasons that I suggested Frank to use this tool to convert styles are:

1. He uses another real-time arranger that doesn't do any modifications for non-XG devices.
2. He uses non-GM banknumbers.
3. He wants to apply conversion techniques that are more specific.

In my view it is an illusion that there could be an automated way for that (point 3). Many styles were converted from other keyboards with drumsets that are different from XG drumsets.

Jos

Jos, Jos, you are such a nice person I don't want to start to disagree with you but......

If I understand your approach in OMB properly it ignores the extended part of the XG Drum Kit. Doing so makes quite a difference in the sound of the style. It sounds almost empty. As a result, I am looking for a more complete conversion. If you look at the extended part of the XG DrumKits it can be tranlated to fairly good (better) equivalents in the GM Drumkit. This sounds much better than leaving it out.

There is sometimes another issue and that is if a drumkit is picked, e.g, LiveStandard which has no equivalent in GM you could end up with some special effect in Bank 127 (hand claps, dogs howling, etc.).

Jos, and yes you can make a pretty good translation tables that will work well for 95% of the styles. You may need to make a separate translation table for standard, jazz, brush and other GM DrumKits. I did some of this many years ago just to get some XG midi files to sound ok on a GM Wavetable. In short it can be done and it sounds much better than leaving drum instruments out within a kit.

So in summary the issues of going from Yamaha midi files or styles to GM are:

Finding the correct drumkit
Finding the correct (best) drum instrument
Finding the correct Bank (special effects vs drumkits)

There are no significant issues going form GM to GM or from GS to GM. Further, most files are produced in these standards.

Once I am sufficiently motivated I will resolve them. I was just hoping something like OMB or Midi Player could incorporate the translation tables and we would be away to the races. And if it were a separate program I would be willing to pay for it!!!!!

Jos, after all this you are still a very good person.

Frank,

In GM mode the non-GM sounds are visually marked in the eventslist in OMB. I just checked the 30 styles that are included in OMB. 25 of them don't have any non-GM drumssounds. 5 styles each use one drumsound outside the GM range.

If you find styles that don't sound full and complete, then just don't use them. There are plenty of others.

Again, thinking that you can convert all styles to GM in an automated way is an illusion. Most styles that you'll find are converted from Roland, Korg etc. Most of the remaining original Yamaha styles are not XG, they use banks from the PSR550/PSR740/PSR2000/Tyros that are not defined in XG.

If you find a style that sounds interesting except for the drum track, then you can easily replace the drum track with that from another style using the import/export options in OMB.

Now here is another idea. When Yamaha makes a new set of voices for a new keyboard they also make new styles to match that new voices. You have made your own instrument the FLR2000, now you should also make your own new styles to match that. It's really not that difficult, you don't have to start complete from scratch. Copy a few tracks from styles and midifiles and modify it until you have a one-part-one-bar style. Only 2 seconds of music how hard can it be? Then it is all "copy and modify". Copy and modify to make more parts. Copy and modify to make fill-ins and intro's. Copy and modify to make the variations longer. It will take a day to do it right but you will end up with a style that sounds better on your gear then any style that you have now!

Jos

Jos, who am I to argue with you.

You might try two examples and play them on a Yamaha PSR or XG wavetable then try them with the OMB on a GM Wavetable to hear the difference I am talking about:

9000 Pro Swing2.sty
9000 Pro BigBand1.sty

You will notice a large difference (from the drums only) even with all the editing you suggest.

Yes, ignoring those styles that do not work is one alternative - almost all of Yamaha 9000 Pro/Tyros styles! I have the ability to use this alternative and have used it from time to time over the last 25 years. Yes there is less problems with styles converted from other keyboards, e.g., Korg & Roland. It was for this reason I checked with Fran to see whether there was a feature within Styleworks to convert Yamaha to a lowly SMF/GM format.

I am mostly concerned with the drumkits and not in general the other panel instruments of PSRs or the Tyros. I have far better voices in my wavetable and these are easy to select. It is just the drums where I am looking for a better solution. Even this is not urgent. sYnerGiGS does an excellent job at this point in time.

I am looking for a high quality solution even if I have to do it myself - oh well. I thought I would give this a try - that's all!!!

Thanks Jos for all your assistance. I value your participation.


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 11-22-2003).]

Hi Jos,
by the sounds of things,unfortunately , the solution at the moment is to leave the offending drum sound out. It could work in some instances , but in others it would be a disaster. I converted a psr waltz style recently and the main 3 drum instruments playing where brushes midi note no's 25, 26, bass drum 33. Unfortunately not one of them would have played correctly under gm or my kn7. I've noticed with quite a few of the styles I've checked, yamaha uses quite a few drums in their styles that are not within the GM scope.

I've noticed even with EMC , it doesn't always get the correct conversion for drums.

Fortunately my kn7 has a function that allows me to convert notes in a sequencer track ie I can convert all c1's(36) ( bass drum) to b0's(35) ( another bass drum) in one or all of the bars in the sequence. Problem is I still have to scroll through the whole drum track and identify wich notes aren't going to work lie brush drums ( midi note no 25 , 26,33) before I can convert them.

My old Notator program used to have converion facilities, and I also had another little cheap sequencer that used to split up a track into indiviual tracks ( ie 1 type of note per track) so I'd end up with all the snares on one track, allthe bass drums on another etc etc it was a great way of editing drums as I was able to change velocities on the tracks as well as transpose the track to get the correct drum sound. Not sure if any of the current day sequencers do that.

Don't get me wrong, I think your program is fantastic.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jos Maas:
[B]Hi Rikki,

Rikki,

There is a drum conversion tool in OMB. It is in the Stylemaker window in the menu tracks/convert. You have to define in a table which note has to go where. In the same table you can also adjust the velocity of each note.

I'll try if I can make a conversion table for the standard drumset in XG. I'm not sure if all sounds have suitable counterparts in the GM range though.

Jos

Rikki, yes you got it. Those are the kind of issues I am referring to. It is not an impossible task to prepare a translation table even if it will never be perfect. Once you have a translation table to the Drumkits in question, e.g., GM Standard vs Yamaha LiveStandard you can then use a number of techniques to resolve the issues, e.g.:

OMB as Jos describes
GNMidi & CasmEdit

There may be other ways such as using M. Bedesem's StyleMaker & Calkwalk. Sonar & Cubase SX also have translation tables but I have not figured out how to use them.

Now that Jos is involved - who knows we may get a very effective and efficient solution.


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 11-22-2003).]

Thank You Jos,
I'll go check it out. As I mentioned earlier , I've only just purchased your program.

Actually my kn has gm as well as an extended version called nx, so hopefully I may be able to set something up for the drums.

I'll let you know how I go.

Even though the arranger part of the program doesn't interest me personally, I think you've created some wonderful tools within the program for style creation.
I don't own a psr any longer, so I'm hoping to actually use your software to help me create styles for my kn7 insofar as using some of the editing tools you've made available, and now with your onboard sequencer, I hope to create a midifile from a style, then use my kn7's midi to style functions and create a style for it.
Even my VA7 has midi to style capabilities.

Lets also not forget that the EMC program can also create a style (for whatever keyboard you own) from a midi file, and you've also got a bit more control over the process.

I'm looking forward to getting stuck into your program

best wishes
Rikki


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jos Maas:
[B]Rikki,

There is a drum conversion tool in OMB.

I'll try if I can make a conversion table for the standard drumset in XG. I'm not sure if all sounds have suitable counterparts in the GM range though.

Jos

Hi Frank,
what is GN Midi,
I know what casmedit is ( I used to own a 9000pro) so I tried most of the free software available, but I don't know GN Midi

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank L. Rosenthal:

[ Once you have a translation table to the Drumkits in question, e.g., GM Standard vs Yamaha LiveStandard you can then use a number of techniques to resolve the issues, e.g.:

OMB as Jos describes
GNMidi & CasmEdit

Now that Jos is involved - who knows we may get a very effective and efficient solution.