I actually contacted Nigel, and asked him if he could split this section off and start a new thread, as I consider this a VERY significant topic, but he said the software can't do this, but he wanted to leave Dom's posts up for all to see.



If you don't pretend to know the laws, you simply have to use your common sense (although that and the law seldom walk the same path!)... Does this sound like piracy? The outright sampling of an arranger's entire soundset? It certainly does to me. I can understand sampling a few synth sounds from an older keyboard, but the plagiarism of an arranger's entire soundset does not ring right.



Once again the answer is simple. And complex. Does this FEEL right...? While Trosha laboriously works to copy the samples in a T2, this work is miniscule in comparison to the work and expense of making the initial sample. Try it, if you think I'm incorrect. The cost of developing the samples that the Big 3 use is WAY beyond Dom's ability to absorb (witness his first few soundsets on the Dream chip - LOL, what a poor name for that nightmare of sound!), so what is his answer? Have Trosha copy Yamaha's work, and make it available for free to use on HIS arranger (which is in competition with Yamaha).

If you liken what Trosha is doing to miking a real piano and developing coherent multisamples for it (one of the most difficult tasks in sampling - witness how few actually sound any good!), you must be blind to the fact that what Trosha is REALLY doing is copy the work of the people that actually DID go out and do this incredibly difficult and expensive task. If he WAS actually sampling the piano himself, I would respect this. But he merely leeches off the work of the amazing engineers and sound developers that DO make this possible. Where is the skill in this? It's a tedious task, admittedly, but nothing compared to getting a great sax multi-sample, or hiring an orchestra to get a good string sound.



It has long been established (from the beginning of the sampler days) that the work involved in sampling an acoustic instrument makes it a new work. It is not like you are actually BUILDING a piano, and then putting a counterfeit 'Steinway' decal on it and selling it as a 'real' one!

But it has also LONG been established that you CAN'T go into a ROMpler and sample the basic data, because you are COPYING the work that went into making those samples in the first place. The person or company that do the work in the first place deserve the rights to their work, and the profits that come from said work. Sampling the presets of an arranger's ENTIRE soundset comes EXTREMELY close to this definition (how do you alter the drum kit sounds, for instance, so as not to be just copying the ROM?), and it seems to me that litigation over this issue is probably already being considered.

As to whether NI B4 is the same thing, firstly, B3's haven't been made for 30 years or more. Secondly, B4 is a modeled, rather than pure sampled emulation. But the relevant thing is, this is not a copy of a current Hammond product (in fact, Hammond's current product is also an emulation of a B3!).

And finally, Ivory is a legal sampling project under the current laws, but were Trosha to go and buy Ivory, then sample IT, and then give away the sounds, he WOULD be in violation of the law. And this is what he is basically doing with the T2 (and soon Korg and Roland). So I would be VERY surprised if they don't see a 'cease and desist' order from their legal system VERY soon.

So basically, yes, you can sample a Steinway (although you MIGHT have to pay a small fee to Steinway if you mention it is a sampled Steinway in your ad - I'm not 100% sure about this issue), but you can't go out and sample the presets of a current ROMpler (like the T2) unless you so alter the sounds as to be recognizably different from the original sound (exactly the thing they are trying to avoid to make it useful as a clone for the styles)...



Firstly, as I said earlier, you don't realize how small the keyboard industry is, and how little it would take to stop it from being profitable. Note how the MP3 piracy and CD copying has reduced the record industry's profits by 30-40% by some figures, enough to put most small businesses out of commission. I think I read somewhere that the entire arranger industry's gross is about the same as ONE Mega Wal-Mart's gross. Kind of makes you think, doesn't it?

And once again, NO-ONE is looking to a future where what Trosha is doing is legal, and a lot of other pirates jump in and also do it, and ANY new keyboard is immediately cloned the day it is released. Where will Trosha's new sounds come from then? He needs to focus his considerable skills on learning how to REALLY go out and make great samples, because there will no longer be anyone else's work for him to copy (steal, that is!).

And finally... (I wish!), the Chord Sequencer is a CONCEPT, and unless Roland have a patent on it (they might, given that no-one else has ever added this great feature to any other arranger!) it would be perfectly OK for Dom to add it to his OS. But were he to go out and copy the code from an older Roland, and put it wholesale into his OS, he would be in violation of the law once again.

I don't see how cloning the ROM sounds of an existing, current, TOTL arranger is much different...

I hope I have given you something to think about on this complex issue. I know it's easy to go 'wow! - I can get a T2 for free (or an Oasys, or a G70), I want one...' but you have to look a little further to the ramifications of what will happen if this IS legal. And I don't see much good coming from it... Except that the MS might FINALLY sound nearly as good as a T2.

But only by stealing it's sounds and styles...

Well, you might want to consider how few live music gigs there are nowadays, compared to the days BEFORE high fidelity recording. Back then if you wanted to hear good music, you HAD to go out and hear it live. There were NO discos or raves or clubs with canned music of any kind. If there was music, there were musicians. If there was music in a restaurant, there was a band, or at least a pianist. How many restaurants do you know with canned music playing? Most of them...

There IS still a demand for live music, but it is nowhere near the level of the 20's and 30's...

And letting yourself get surreptitiously 'sampled' won't completely kill ALL your gigs. But we all know a club owner or MD somewhere who might try to save a BIT of money and play you occasionally rather than hire you, and ANY gig lost is money lost...

I've read several posts on this forum where members describe this happening, occasionally. So don't try to tell me it doesn't happen...

So try to imagine how you will feel WHEN it happens to you, and then think about this 'cloning' issue... Feels a bit different if YOU are the one losing money over it, doesn't it?

Seriously, Diki, who could even afford a grammophone player in the 20's and 30's. Also, musicians weren't paid what they're paid nowadays. In fact, musicians weren't held in high esteem and were pretty low on the social ladder. One only has to look at the great classical composers. If it weren't for wealthty sponsors they'd all have lived like paupers. Quite a few did, in fact. Even doctors were a poor lot once but that's a different story.

Times have changed and live entertainment doesn't come cheap. People no longer just want a singer or a band. They want a show with special effects, etc. It takes an entire airplane just for the equipment and quite a few of the stars' demands are outrageous. Give them the wrong mineral water and they go beserk. Perhaps a little thought on how hard African-American artists had it not too long ago might make them realize how little they're into it for the music. It's all money they seem to care for.

Still, canned music will never come over the same way as live entertainment. Not even a Live recording will. So what if they can your performance. How often do you think they'll have to play it before the audience gets sick of hearing it. A 'live' musican/band will give variety. And if they ever can my playing...I'd be honored. Gosh, I wish my time in the elevator will come some day!

Taike

ROFLMAO, Taike... What world are you playing in? I certainly don't see regular gigging musicians treated with any more respect than they were in the 20's and 30's... And they had divas and stars that had just as outrageous demands as nowadays. Not to mention superstar classical composers like Liszt, the Mick Jagger of his day! And there are plenty of stars from the last few years that died paupers, too (few doctors, though!)..

Plenty of people could afford gramophones in the 20's and 30's, Taike (at least in the US) but they were ANYTHING but 'hi-fi'... and did not have the volume to compete with a real big band (or even small combo). Even nowadays, it takes a reasonably beefy PA to get louder than a real drummer playing hard...

The fact is, there is only a small fraction of full time working musicians nowadays, compared to the 20's and 30's. And high quality recordings and more powerful PA systems is PRECISELY the reason for it. I only WISH that things were different, but they are not. The proportion of live to recorded music being played continues to diminish every year, and has been doing so for a VERY long time.

And, no disrespect, but if people really WERE still interested in live music, there wouldn't be a single OMB using an arranger with a gig. There would be full bands, everywhere. Just like there used to be. We would still be playing, but we would have a REAL rhythm section, and REAL sidemen, instead of pre-canned (dare I say... 'sampled') musicians...