probably could research past posts but always new sz-ers and new equipment, so here goes... have finally decided never again to use pa systems. stands, etc unless i'm forced to by circumstance. not only does a kb amp make sense in terms of shlepping, connecting, setup time, etc, but it makes sense in terms of my belief that sound should amplify the persona of a musician, as if he/she were performing w/o amplification: in other words, the sound is best when it is centered close to the musician who is producing it, not spread across a room like background music. whenever i see the typical folkie guitarist/singer playing an intimate venue w/ 2 jbl 15's on high stands spread 15-20 ft apart, plus an effects rack plus a huge power mixer, i have to laugh (and cry at he same time) what are they thinking? it sounds and looks so (as Mencia would say-- dee--ta--deeee!..ie, stoooopid) so help me out here? (but not Barbetta, please, because i've read too many user complaints re their reliability and bad service) I'd like to keep it under approx 50 lbs, and a 12" spkr is ok, maybe better for vocals than 15". I'm going to put my E60 and vocals thru it, (maybe with my little Behringer mixer w/effects) yeah, i just reordered the E60 from Kaye w/1.09 update..hope that makes it better. don't know if stereo or mono is the way to go, but want to hear your thoughts.. $ value is to be considered, but i have no major objections to spending more to get a better sound..or spending less to get an older classic that some of you may favor...Ok, thanks for your help, guys!

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Miami Mo

http://www.traynoramps.com/products.asp?type=9&cat=57&id=340
http://www.traynoramps.com/downloads/specsheet/k4.pdf

best stand alone KB amp Ive heard & played thru in a long time .........

forgot to mention I'm not a fan of the Bose systems, so please limit your recommendations to kb amps..also, i would prefer for the amp to have speaker out and/or line out so i could set up a small monitor if circumstances required that. thanks again

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Miami Mo

and for my second recomendation........
http://barbetta.com/html/Live/live.html

thanks, Donny, looks like a winner..will have to check if lifting 57 lbs + weight of small wheeled carrier I would strap it to, up and down from my Endeavor is too much of a strain or not..I have had 3 hernias over the years and am subject to back spasms. also i see price is around $769 at discounters..for that $ i'd want to try one out first..so i'll have to hunt where i may be able to do that here in nw ct thru oct or in miami vic after nov 1.....MO

sorry, see my original post as to why not..

Mo....just whip that baby on a Rock N Roller multicart with all your gear...
http://www.rocknrollercart.com/

you cant skimp on good sound...try Ebay ya might get lucky & grab one for a bit less...The Traynor is a Tri Amped Beauty that can handle most situations in "stereo" with no prob!

this TOA 4-ch kb amp has just been relisted on ebay after no bidders 1st time..opening bid is $99 and may go for that or not too much more..it's 1 hr 20 min drive from my house so i can check it out, save shipping...anyone familiar with it? MO http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330154731153&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNARL:US:12

K4 is 50 pounds..The most powerful keyboard amp on the market[Keyboard Mag]..Tri amped..best midrange for vocals too..If you like to warm up a digital sound..TUBE preamp..

donny, once it's on any kind of carrier it's not a problem..it's the lift from the ground up/down, especially from the tailgate of my suv that concerns me. I take an old duovox bass amp to my wed jam night for bass players to use, and it's 50lbs including the carrier.. I can handle the lift, but just barely..I will bungee a 12-lb dumbbell to that and try the 62-lb lift. ..and pray i don't hurt myself..then try a 15-pounder... if that's ok then it's full steam ahead.... re the rocknroller: I'm one of those who carries the bare kb under his arm, i believe it's easier and safer that way. I don't mind extra steps..one trip for the kb and x-stand, one trip for the amp on carrier and shoulder bag of mics, cables, etc..one trip for the horns. setup is a breeze..I even leave my power cord/cables in the amp and bungee them to the amp or carrier..then don't have to do anything but stick them into kb..making 3 trips is good exercise, and i'd rather take extra steps than place a ton of stuff on a rocknroller in cases, unpack/repack, find places on the gi to put the roller, cases, etc..and i never have to take the amp on/off the carrier i use..it's all one unit..I just have to lift it in/out of my suv, then roll it around for the rest of the night. MO

Fran, site i went to says 57 lbs...Mo

fran, here it is on the traynor site: http://www.traynoramps.com/products.asp?type=9&cat=57&id=340 57.3 lbs.. if it's THAT much better than everything else out there I'll spring for the $, but the weight is at this point a possible discouragement.. outside of Barbetta, anyone have any others to recommend, new, classic, or in-between..12".. UNDER 50 lbs....whaat about the Roland kc350?

Mo I own a K4..

http://www.traynoramps.com/downloads/specsheet/k4.pdf


New specs must be a misprint or the K4 is still growing...

I attached the link to the Specs when I purchased mine last Dec..

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 08-10-2007).]

]http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAP...:12[/QUOTE]

Traded in a Peavey KB300 for one many years ago, thought the size and weight would be ideal. I had Toa 3-ways for my PA and loved them. The keyboard amp was a different story. The one I had couldn't handle the keyboards and midi files. It would distort. Maybe it was just that amp, maybe not. I wouldn't buy it if I couldn't return or resell it. I'd want to play thru it first. Hope this helps.

I have a Kustom KMX100 with a 15", but the cabinet is light and can handle a small venue easily. It has a line out that shuts off the cab spkr., but you can have it changed to use both spkrs. if you wish. They also have two smaller models. http://www.kustom.com/amps/keyboard/kma/kma65X_combo.asp

Mo , I too was looking for a compact, yet powerful keyboard amp with a strong bottom...I wanted something for my solo jobs..

I owned a couple of the smaller Roland keyboard amps KC series..They are ok, but don't compete with the older Roland Cube keyboard amps..{I still have a pair of Roland 100's(15")..plus another as a spare]...I prefer these over anything I have used..For punch and bottom...nothing beats the big bottom of the old Roland's..

I bought and sold the Alesis 100 and 300..Poor quality, and tried some of my older small amps too..About a year ago, after reading about the Traynor K4, and being a fan of Yorkville sound[Distributor]..I decided that was going to be the unit for me...Last December I followed through and purchased[without trying it]..and I liked what it had and it's features...Bass response was excellent[a 12" that competed with a lot of 15" units]..I was reluctant to use it on larger jobs [250 people or more]..using my Roland's instead[70 pounds each]..Then I did an indoor job [200 people]..it breezed...Than an outdoor gig with 300 people..still breezed..never ran more than half volume..

I even pushed the bass[EQ]...and dancers loved it...

The tubes add to warm up sounds that could use more warmth..

Try it before you pass on it..

All the resistance to over 30 lb. arrangers, and here we are talking about 50 lb+ amps...

Maybe the next time you sneer at a guitarist using two speakers on poles and a self powered amp, you MIGHT consider that each of those components doesn't weigh more that 25 lb., probably. If sticking them up on poles, widely separated is what annoys you, you can always put them on the ground in exactly the same place you would have put a keyboard amp.

Dee...taa......Deeeee!

And also remember, there's a reason they are elevated speakers... The minute the crowd gets up and dances in front of you, there goes the sound for the rest of the room... You sound like mud, and no-one can hear the vocals.

Weren't you the one who chose NOT to go with a G70 because it was 45 lb., despite having all the foot controls and other things you hated weren't on the E60?

Diki, what sound system do you use?

It depends on the venue...

We play an large outdoor venue for up to 300+ twice or more every week, and use a rack with a Mackie mixer, x-over, eq's and two Crown amps. Probably a kilowatt+... two 18' subs and a pair of JBL SR series 12" and horn top cabs (unbelievable volume, quality and reliability in those SR series!). Two 12" Peavey cabs for monitors. It's a lot of gear, but a BIG outdoor venue that needs fairly high volume (and it was designed for a full four-piece with a drummer, etc.). It stays at the gig.

For smaller outdoors, and indoor gigs we use the JBLs again, but use a Mackie 15" powered sub and a Yamaha self powered mixer (EMX2000-12), no monitors.

And several smaller restaurant and piano-bar gigs have house systems...

It just varies... Remember, I don't solo too much. So humping the gear isn't quite the problem solos, and older players have. Quality, volume (when needed) and reliability are our focus. We've used the deck rig for 2000+ seater outdoor concerts at full volume. No problems.

I can't recommend those JBL SR (now SRX) series too highly. You get what you pay for. 10 years+ playing a full band through them at close to concert levels, ON A BEACHFRONT without a single driver problem...

OTOH, I have never played through a keyboard amp that didn't suck (Peaveys, Rolands, Barbettas Carvins, Motion-Sound etc.) compared to those JBLs...

Fran:
The discrepancy question was solved by my call to Yorkville
in Ontario. they said that the 50 lbs was inaccurate, and they
updated all their specs this year--so that's why it now says
57.3 lbs. Hoiwever, there is new Traynor K2 , sort of a
"little brother" of the K4. it's got all the features except
only 2 channels, 3-band eq, and it's not stereo. it's 44 lbs
and can be had for $525-585 online w/free shipping. If my
"dumbell test" fails, and 57.3 proves too much, I'm going to consider the K2..have you tried it?

Diki:
sometimes you are terrific and sometimes you are an insufferable snot. I explained to you once before that
handling weight in a kb is totally different from handling
it in an amp. if one can't understand that, one is either
a moron (which you are obviously not) or has an agenda
to just win arguments based on their prejudices. you are
a g-70 fan (fanatic is more apt) and anyone who can afford one and likes the sounds who doesn't get one is in your mind commiting an unpardonable transgression.
Similarly, your hounding me on using midi pedals for the E60 was off-base, as George Kaye investigated that for me and found it very problematic, even after discussing it with the #1 tech at Roland.
also, to answer another of your barbs, I don't generally play to large groups of people dancing in front of me, and
when i do, they become the audience, and the beat becomes the issue, and muddiness becomes irrelevant.
I don't have to project clarity THROUGH them to another
audience, just AT them.
You are at the same time one of the most helpful and one
of the most intolerant people on sz. Try to get out of your
own prejudices and LISTEN once in a while, OK?

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Miami Mo

i saw this after my last reply to you Diki..
it just reinforces what an insufferable snot you can be at times. eveyone does not have the same uses and the same needs, that's why there are so many choices. but to you there is only ONE acceptable choice..yours. but what is far more annoying about you than that is your setting up "straw man" arguments, where you attribute motives
or interpretations to what others say that are not what
they mean, and then proceed to knock them down. my
objection to the folkie guitarist example was that sound
reinforcement became overkill to the acoustic spirit that that kind of music was born in, and that the broad separation was a further unreal aspect of performance. of course that doesn't suit your purpose--which is whenever
possible to "get back" at me for not making sense to you
about why i don't use a g70 like you do.


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Miami Mo

Diki, I have to agree with Mo, every time you seem to be helpful or charming...you slip a backhand in there..

Were you picked on while growing up?

Mo, I weighed my K4 on a bathroom scale with the LeCover[cover] and the power cord...55 pounds..I am sure it could be in error[accurate]..It has two handles and can be carried[lifted comfortably for me)..

I have a young lady friend that uses the KC350..It sounds good[lounge gigs for her} and she mounts it on a pole...by herself..I think it weighs around 40 pounds..or less..

Mo,
Your roland shipped out today afterall. It will be to you Thursday. I adressed it as you explained to Gloria.
Have any of you tried to latest Yamaha StagePas 500? I think it sounds great and has alot of features, plus it's stereo and can be carried around very easily.


------------------
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566
www.kayesmusicscene.com

thanks, George. guys, I always listen to what George has to say, so i'm going to include those yamaha pas units in my possibles because you can use just one speaker w/the mixer in it, and add the 2nd when desired for stereo and/or monitoring.

the knock on the smaller pas is that the echo
is not a true reverb and sucks (the bigger one has true reverb) however, none of the other amps discussed here
have effects as far as i can see, so i'd need to use my mini
Behringer mixer w/effects for vocals for them and small
pas systems too..

I also want to check on the new Behringer FX1800's, which
are reported to sound very good, have efx, are only $300-
but they can't really put out volume in spite of their 180w
rating. I'd need to see how much they will actually put out,
if I have to crank the knob way up but that's sufficient for
my gigs, then not a big problem. it's a convenience that i won't have to use outboard efx, don't understand how
all the others at twice the price on up can't include efx
while Behringer can in a bottom-price unit. but i did have
to return a Behringer powered mixer to George last spring
because it had so little power it was a joke. I'm hoping
their new kb amps are not that bad.

Now it's up to me to keep researching and to try as many
of these as i can..no substitute for that. btw, Diki, for years my basic rig was a JBL eon 10 bungeed to a carrier,
with a mini Behringer mixer strapped on top of it. I used
it as most would a kb amp..didn't pop it up a pole, just
kinda tilted it back like the kickback units. It was fine,
but i never got why all the jbl raves. when I substituted a
couple of older amps I had laying around the garage for years , just for fun, i was shocked I liked the sound much better. but those amps are problematic, that is why i'm now searching for a better setup. so your statement that every kb amp sucks compared to using a jbl is a very personal one--I would not say the jbl sucked, it was reliable, powerful, and clear--it just was kinda boring to me and lacked some enticing sexiness in the sound that I found in the amps.

what Donny and Fran are telling me about the Traynor and some reviews i saw on it make it very appealing to me.
If the K4 weight is too much, I'm hoping the K2 will
satisfy. i know when i put my old ART tube amp module
on the line from the kb I like the result, so I'll probably
love the tube preamp feature on the Traynors. but there's
still a ways I have to go before i decide..sooo...

THANKS TO ALL! yes, even you, Diki..and whenever I feel
you are right on i will always join by your side, as i have
done before, regardless of whether anyone else agrees.
Just leave your sniper's gun at your side and we'll get
along fine. peace.




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Miami Mo