I got into this situation where I play the arranger (drum rythms only, left bass, right piano/strings) and the other guy played the bongo or something like that, tall double cylinders type. The person sat next to me and play her heart out. No matter how loud I turn up the keyboard, I still could not hear the drums on the kybd. All I hear is the bongo rythms. And after a while we both gets out of sync. The arranger drums goes one way and the bongos goes the other and I end up following the bongos. It was a big mess and a big headache. Anybody experience this and know how to resolve it.

Sometimes it's just a matter of one thing being too loud and the other not loud enough. I had to work out these kinks with my guitar player too. We tried different setups and speaker placements.. etc.. until we got it right. he'd lose the beat, and I'd lose his rythym or.. I'd get distracted by his rythym and lose the arranger's beat too. Fortunately, once we set things up properly we discovered that we can both play in time...

BTW, certain arrangers ( PA80 is one I know of ) can be set up to send out a "click" track independent of the stereo outputs ( it has 4 outputs total ). Perhaps this would help the percussionist ...


Now ..part two.. Skill levels and learning to play in time.. when everyone can hear everything properly and the timing is still off... then tthe next obvious quest6ion is.. can this person keep a beat ? .. I don't know your situation and how well the bongo player plays but if it isn't you going out of sync and the bongo player CAN hear the arranger ( maybe she can't ? ) then..... you get the picture yes ?

AJ


[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 09-27-2003).]

Program some multi-pads with the bongo patterns, and fire the bongo player! Keep all the money yourself.
DonM

I think, and that is my experience, that if you play your kb using the auto accompagnement or even just the rythm part, it is better not to have a percutionnist or drummer.
Or then the percussionnist will have to follow the machine, very difficult...

Might I suggest that you EQ your output differently for stage mix. Remove a lot of the low end bass and brighten the mix, this will allow you to hear the drums easier. You can't stay in rhythm if you can't hear it. Also what someone else recommended about speaker placement, use hotspots or good floor monitors. Also, practice, practice, practice.... Drummers are use to controlling time, and with an arranger or drum machine, they can't unless your arranger has a feature to allow you to tap in time (Tap Tempo) and assign to a pedal, allow the percussionist to control the time this way.

The secret to success here is practice. When you're playing with other folks, especially those that have never played professionally in groups, you need to set the levels, then maintain those parameters throughout the gig. Had the same experience several years ago when playing in a country band. The guitar player would drive me nuts. Not only could he not follow the beat, he continuously cranked up the volume on his guitar until the speakers were ready to explode. Once I reached over and unplugged his guitar and for the first 10 or 15 seconds, he didn't know why there was nothing coming out of the speakers. Fortunately, he quit a week later. Don is right--fire the bongo player, keep the money yourself.

Cheers,

Gary

Following an arranger keyboard or even
a MIDI file by a live musician is not
a difficult task for a real professional.
If the skills are up to the task, then
it is critical to have clear monitoring.For the percussionist,I suggest using in ear phones and have the monitor mix set so the drums are playing a very basic pattern. A nice trick is to use only one ear phone and leave the other ear open so the overall mix can be heard better.
(This way the amateur percussion won't play too loud or they will not hear the ear phone monitor and get lost.)
You obviously have a very amateur bongo player. You referred to the percussionist as a him and her? If it's a girl, she had better be great looking or fire her. If it's a man, get rid of him immediately!

For my pro gigs, I make it a point to never bring on new musicians unless:

1) I've had the opportunity to audition and hear them play with a band (group) before.

2) I've rehearsed with them.

3) I've received an unequivical 'thumbs up' re their musicship from a fellow respected musician associate.

Both the range & idea of what constitutes good musicianship means different things to different people. Some people sound good playing by themselves only, but sound terrible when playing in a group. Arranger keyboard players have the unique opportunity to develop the 'timing' skills required for playing in a band (group) situation. Unforutnately many other solo musicians never get that kind of exposure.

In arranger keyboard playing, the auto accomp's BASS & DRUMS parts supply the rhythm section's core foundation in which all other instruments (LIVE musicians) must LOCK in with. Some people mistakenly believe the drummer is the leader of the rhythm section, but this is incorrect. It's in fact the Bass player's job (not the drummer's) to lead the rhythm section, with the other rhythm section instruments (drummer, perccussionist, keyboard rhythm section player) to lock in with the Bass line.

This being said, when picking up musicians for my arranger kb gigs, I prefer to hire non rhythm section instrument musicians: sax, flute, brass, guitar, female vocalist.

Scott

well said scott - I luckily have a friend/neighbor who does super vocals and guitar, who can rock with me and my arranger/keyboard, with no problems.

Jammed with another band a month ago, and WOW - guess I'm spoiled, most of the group could not keep up, hold a rhythym, etc.

I agree, get rid of the bongo player if you can, and do it yourself!

Jill

Scott,
I agree with all your points, but this
one is a "chicken or the egg" argument.
It is the job of the ENTIRE rhthym section
to lock in and play TOGETHER. A good bass
player and drummer will lock into each
other- no one is necessarily "leading"-
it is an "interaction" that is fine tuned in
a matter of milliseconds.

Yup - rhythm is the master...with or withOUT actual drums.
We had a sax sectional rehersal in Jazz band one day and our teacher made us experience the element of "swing" without the drums or bass. The rhythm comes from all areas of the arrangement, and eben without a steady backbeat - you can feel the groove .... IF you were born with the gift.
No ammount of study can teach you swing. You either got it, or you don't.
Swing's the thing !

Amen to that Uncle Dave!

When I'm playing in the 5 piece band we use my arranger (X1) for some of the more complicated Latin rhythms like Samba and Cha Cha. Our drummer doesn't really care for this but goes along because of the improved sound. He tries to play along and as long as he listens (that's the key) he does ok. Usually after the song gets going, he gets carried away, plays louder and thinks he is still on the beat. Of course he isn't, so I give him a look and he backs off and again plays in tempo.

Drummers hate arrangers because they think they all have perfect rhythm. We know better don't we?

Tom

Try it the other way around so that you will know how really good he is in a beat. I saw a group of 3, keyboardist, percussionist and guitar player and they are really groovin'. The keyboard player is using an arranger keyboard but he turned off the auto-rhythym and they sound pretty good. Can he (your percussionist) do something else other than playing bongos? If not then you don't need him.

"Amateur" musicians hate arrangers and
sequenced music PERIOD.


We know better don't we?
Tom,you must play with some real "amateur" drummers if you truly think that.


[This message has been edited by Vquestor (edited 09-29-2003).]

The bongo player cannot really do anything else. She just have to keep the beat, that is all. Or I will have to stick my ear closer to the speaker to hear the drums of the arranger to keep the rythms. Thanks guys.

One of my favorite "Duo" combinations is to add a percussionist (NOT a trap kit) to my rig. My "first call" guy plays congas, bongos and timbales.....really adds alot to the mix without doubling any parts !