I'm with Bill on this one, the Wersi and Lionstracs are easily the top contenders available right now for arranger/workstations and they both offer more features than any competitor bar none. If you don't need arranger features then the Korg Oasys is also worth considering. The Wersi has by far the easiest to operate GUI but with each Lionstracs update the Mediastation is getting closer and closer to Wersi. The Wersi is damned difficult to beat though as its interface, sounds, features, and build quality are top notch.

Both Wersi and Lionstracs can play GIGA files and until you've heard a multi gigabyte sound played back you don't know just how awesome they sound. Whereas competitors such as Yamaha, Korg, and Roland use only a few hundred Megabytes of sound ROM for all their sounds, Wersi and Lionstracs can play back single sounds that are 3-5 GB or more! In addition to GIGA sample playback the Wersi and Lionstracs both feature Native Instruments B4, definitely the best B3 modeling program available, and VST support so you can load your favorite soft synth, sequencer, and recording programs.

If you have a dealer near you give both of these keyboards a look and see and hear for yourself what they can do. I think either one will amaze you.

Hi, I appreciate your thougths on the Wersi; here are mine. On the sound front I have not hear a Wersi but I have owned a Kurzweil K2000VP, Roland SRX classic keys card an Akai SGV01 (vintage module from 1996) as well as the originals that they try to emulate. The Roland was nowhere near as good at recreating vintage sounds despite having buch bigger samples than the Akai and Kurzweil so in my experience it is much more than how many megbites or gigabite sof sound. The same goes for soft synths - the Ron Papen did not blow me away despite being hailed as one of the best soft synths.

The other think about Wersi is that they have no UK presence worth mentioning at present and I have reservations about the technology that they use in their product. My preference is to be behind the curve of technology because you are normally better off. Whilst I appreciate that all modern keyboards have a 'computer inside' there are computers and computers and I do not like the windoze based ones.

Hi Jupiter4
Have a look at the VST site links on this site, http://www.funk-station.co.uk/links.htm in particular Synth Edit & FXPansion (Which include GURU) all these can be used alone on a computer or integrated in to any keyboard that accepts VST Instruments.
Regarding Windows stability, bear in mind that the Wersi instruments were developed in the late 90s, and were released on to the market in 2000 with OAS 2 and Windows 98, this was upgraded to Windows XP in 2002 when OAS 4 was released, I can also report that over the 5 or 6 years that the OAS instruments have been on the market, there has never been any problems with the Windows operating systems, (Exceptions are when people who think they know better then Wersi, alter and mess up the operating system) this is because Wersi modify the operating system to give optimal performance and stability with the OAS software, so you do not have to worry about it.
Like any software, sometimes bugs are found in the OAS system but as soon as Wersi are informed, then they get straight on the job to sort it out, and then offer a free update CD. (In the early days support was not as good as it could be, but with the new management team there is now very little problem)
Regarding Wersi itself, they have been in business since 1969, although there have been management changes over the years, as with a lot of firms.

Bill

Hi Jupiter,

you asked before about Pa1X sampling possibility: yes you can sample by yourself, import Akai-wav-aiff-Triton formats, and time-slice audio grooves for further use into styles.

I can tell you that I'm really satisfied with my actual set. Of course you cannot expect the perfect sound in every field (and this is valid for every model of every brand), and since everybody of us has his/her own tastes the best possible solution is having a sampler inside so you can integrate the standard set with the sounds you would like to add or enhance.
There is some work to do, that's clear, and the final result sometimes is also up to your programming ability, but definitely the most flexible solution.

Hope this help.

Cheers.

Fran,
I'll be gone most of today. If I get a chance I'll try to rip a quick mp3 for you this evening.

I do want to point this out. Sure, you can record HipHop, Rap, and R&B on ANY keyboard that has recording capabilities (even arrangers) The problem is that 99.99% of the time the recording will sound downright cheezy. It's not a knock on your G-1000 either. I've heard that board before, and it too (using internal voices) will sound cheezy.

Reason for this.....,simple! Arrangers do not have the voice set for recording these styles, and if you want to record these styles you MUST MUST MUST MUST MUST have a keyboard with SAMPLING capabilities, be it direct sampling or just the ability to load samples. You NEED to be able to bring in external sounds, and loops to do this. You MUST have a dedicated sampling synth/workstation, or something like an MPC-2000+ to do these styles and make them sound good.


If I can find the file I might already have a good one to send you. I did a killer HipHop beat on my Casio WK-3500. The only reason it turned out so darn good is because the Casio loads (user samples). I was able to use sounds (outside) of the Casio internal voices.

Also the ONLY arranger that has EVER been produced that did an awsome job at recording HipHop, Rap, R&B, Dance, ect was the ORIGINAL Yamaha DJX. Why oh why for the love of all that is holy did Yamaha totally sh** on that keyboard and released that crappy DJX II?????? They really had something going there. I don't think Yammie really knew how many DJ's and HipHop artists actually bought those things. I had one and DAMN! That board even though it's quite a few years old would dance circles around the PSR-3000, and others when it came to writing those styles.

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 09-28-2005).]

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 09-28-2005).]

...so a combination of a PA1X or G70 or Tyros 2 plus my MC909 should be a winning combination for hiphop R&B etc? i agree that you need good sounds but more thna this I think that you need attitude - and that comes from the syles. I have a Boss DR202 and some of the drum beats are quite inspiring and it is fairly easy to get a groove going. My main interest in the arranger keyboards I am realising will be for latin and jazz styles that I love but cannot play very well.

You'll get the latin and jazz styles you're looking for on an arranger. Arrangers are great for jazz, blues, latin, rock, gospel, contemp., new age, and a few others. You're not going to get that thumping drums, bass, and synth sounds you'll need for HipHop and styles related to that from an arranger.

Also arranger style recorders arent the easiest to use when it comes to HipHop. With HipHop you need to chain your patterns. You cannot chain patterns on an arranger (some think you can, but you cannot because pattern chaining is different from using arrangers). Plus when doing HipHop loops artists generally record their fills and so forth into the loop itself. Thus making it easier to chain them.

When I get home I'm going to see if I have anything to send to Fran in either MP-3 or midi file for him to get an idea of what I'm talking about.

Squeak

Hay Squeak,

I hope you will be able to find a file to send to Fran. While I don’t think that the file would be able to be duplicated (since hiphop uses tweaked sounds) It may probably be able to get the general feel.


I agree with what you are saying as a general rule especially when you are talking about the PSRs and keyboards in and below that price range and keyboard quality.

I do think however that some of the more recent flagship arrangers like PA1x, G70 and Genesys, are in some respect capable of helping the user to create a hiphop track. I don’t think you will be able to do an entire CD of hiphop tracks with just one arranger (or one instrument for that matter), but you can get one or two decent ones.

I think it all depends on the specific arranger that is being used. For example, I have done a few hiphop and other urban tracks on the Genesys and to my surprised I was able to get some deep sounding basses and bass drums that other people liked. One thing about the Genesys is that you don’t just get your bass drums (or any other drum sounds) from just with in the drum kit. Each sound in the drum kit has its own patch number and space. I would use that and play with the LFOs, resonance, filter cut-offs, EQ and other sound changing tools to get the type of sound I want. I have even had persons that had the Korg Triton say to me that they prefer the Genesys drums because they sound deeper and bassyer out of the box. For them to get the Triton to sound like that, they have to apply a lot of effects. Is the Genesys a hiphop making tool? Absolutely not! Nor is any single hardware or software music making tool. I guess my point is that it all boils down to how well one knows the instruments and how well the instrument can be tweaked.

Hiphop and other urban music are very diverse musical genres today. No one equipment or creation technique (styles or patterns) is dominant. At the end of the day it all boils down to whether or not you have a hit or whether you are satisfied with what was produced.


p.s
I almost forgot. One thing we have to take in to account is that a lot of hiphop producers use mixers before they go in to their recording device to get that bass sound they want or to bring out the highs. They do this regardless of what equipment is giving the bass sounds like the Motif.

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 09-28-2005).]

Jupiter,i posted on your other thread,a site in uk for cheaper korgs,did you try it?

genesys,
You're right about not (one) piece of gear can do the work. To do HipHop, Rap, and all that you'll need a good synth, and something like an MPC-2000. Plus a good (sample) sound library (considering the sounds are changing constantly).

I personally wouldn't buy the top Korg arranger or the Roland G-70 to do this work. I'd buy a Roland Fantom, Yamaha Motif, or Korg Triton. Then I'd buy a MPC-2000, Have good computer programs, and so forth.

I'm home now checking files to see if I have anything I can send to Fran. If not I'll just write a quick HipHop loop using my Casio WK-3500 and Cubase and send him a midi.

As another member posted the styles need to have "attitude". He couldn't be more right. To program a HipHop drum beat is not the same as a simple rock, blues, or jazz beat. You have to make sure the beat is up to date.

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 09-28-2005).]