Hi all guys..
I like know what you think about the new Lionstracs Mediastation X-76.
I know in real this keyboard, but i like what people worldwide think about it.

Let me know
Domenik

[This message has been edited by domenik (edited 10-04-2003).]

Forget to shown the link: www.lionstracs.com

Well, if I can try it first, I will be able to give good opinion about it.

The outside looks good - the numbmer of buttons looks about right. The promotional literature (or what of it is accessible) extolls its virtues properly. Now, can we get to play one? How does it sound? How easy is the keyboard to get around? Does it have a harmonizer? What is the cost?

The endeavor is a worthwhile one, let's just hope that the company will do better than OpenLabs - the parents of Eko.

To be honest, I see no progress in development of the homepage nor the x-76.

We need a video of this Mediastation, like Yamaha did for their productline.

Domenik :
You saw this baby.... but was it able to produce a sound ? If yes, what did you hear ?

Most visitors here are musicians that need music-demo's or some time to spend with the X-76 to be able to 'judge' an instrument.

Just specs, promises and one single (low Q)picture are not enough to convince us.

Well, I will to be honest to, why I don't like lieing...
I'm the hardware engineer of this product, before I had developed the new Solton SGX Expander with the new chip of Dream SAM9708, 128 Voice and then we had add our analog system device for have in output 116dB dynamic range. This product is available from Solton Germany www.solton.de and a lot of people had heard it. Believe me, with 116dB you can hear the difference!
About the Mediastation X-76 is the same system, we have developed a new PCB board with 2 SAM9708, 128 Voice. One 128 Voice splited in 2 MIDI IN ( 32 channel) ONLY for the 2 realtime Midiplayer and style player. The second sam9708, 128 voice ONLY for the keyboard. Difference: Solton SG-X have 24Mb Flash memory, X-76 have 2X256 Mb DIMM memory. Other this hardware midi engine, we have developed a anolog 24 stereo inputs to 4 stereo BUS: 24-4-2 all with 24bit DA converters.
About the style player, the USA guy Rob Buse, from the SEQ24 is in development of one super style player: 16 midi traks, 16 mute, 16 volumes, 4 layer. Rob had developed a Linux module forImport all styles from the EMC style converter in automatic mode, then you can play all the styles of all keyboars ( supported by EMC Style converter).
The chief Linux software enginner of all mediastation is Benno, the BOSS of LINUX AUDIO DEVELOPER, then now you can understand what really mediastation can do.
About the webpage, we know that dont look nice, yust give us more 10/15 days and you can see the new portal in Postnuke, with Audio demo and video demo.
End october you can find a mediastation to our ditributor in NY, USA, musicindustries corporation.
Go there and listen what is a keyboard.

Let me know some...
Domenik

domenik,

Thanks for the information. Please make sure that a demo keyboards are available in major cities of the USA.

So , is Solton Germany still selling General Music products under the Solton name ? or has that now ended ?

Well, for my know ( and I know they really well) Solton Music Germany have some more SG-1 Keyboards ( SG-1 is the copy of Generalmusic Genesys, but some different sound bank made for the German people) After they have saled out the last SG-1, then never distribuite again keyboards.
Before generalmusic, Solton had distribued the Ketron keyboards, named under Solton name, but alway made : by Ketron Lab.
After Generalmusic, Lionstracs had developed the Solton SG-X and now Lionstracs have the own Expander SM-X and dont produce more SG-X.
Lionstracs in a couple of months will exit with a lot of new products: mediastation X-76, the X-76 Pro with AMD processor, SM-X Expander, Wavetable 128 Voice.
All this products are available at the NAMM 2004 in Anahaim and Musikmesse frankfurt, Germany.
people, believe us, a new totally generation of keyboards is coming out!
All your dreams and all what is write in the webpage, for DJ too...is ALL TRUE!

Domenik

Sounds great. Keep working on it and keep us informed.
DonM

Ok friends, this is sure.

Anyway, for your know...we a little hatte when people compare us like the Openlabs Eko...
Eko is ONLY a PC Windows XP installed in one keyboard case, M-Adio card and some USB controllers. Always you must use the touch pad mouse for play over it and they dont have developed nothing like hardware, just installed a PC in a new case, with ALL problems that windows offer...( just read some old topics here.... people know that)
mediastation is 2 years of project, we use only the ATX board like engine, but inside give 9 new PCB boards, 172 silicon key's with 2 color led for multifunctions, 640X480 LCD, + external monitor up to 1280X1024 + TV out, ALL 3 VGA INDIPENDENT and of couse, Linux.
All what can offer Linux, we can give you.
In the keyboard are deleted all the games and stupid stuff, only application for the musician, internet included.
mediastation is the first keyboard that can download by internet FREE the last software release available, just by pressing the key: HELP and the Upgrade.
Think about....

So how would you compare the MediaStation with the Wersi Abacus? What about price? What about weight?

Well, the Wersi is more interesting like the Eko, they have a lot of years of esperience, but still they use Windows and one PC sound card.
The difference from Windows and Linux is that Windows dont give the possibility to open the code and fix the bugs. They have installed the Cubase sequencer and all the function are recalled ONLY by touch screen by pointer, like a mouse. When you play live, try to find a midifile, or change the sound or open a CD's.... all this function by touch screen mouse?? And when you have time for playing?
Anyway Wersi make a wonderfull case but are products for stay at home and not for stage.
price of wersi start from $5000 to the big model $ 49.950....
Mediastation X-76 cost about $6000 and the wight is about 27Kg. Only the 76 long key's wieghted pro are 10Kg.

here the web link of wersi: http://www.wersi-studio-sinsheim.de/text-21.htm

Ok could not resist not to partecipate to the discussion ;-)

some clarifications: I'm not the BOSS of the linux audio developers. There is no boss there, the LAD (Linux audio developers) is a group of people that meet around a mailing list (linux-audio-dev) and organize real-life meetings and workshops too, a few times a year (check out www.linuxaudiodev.org, Events section).

Regarding the mediastation: is it really and innvoative concept since it combines the ease of use of a traditional keyboard with the flexibility of PC hardware and the Linux operating system, an industrial strenght unix-like OS that powers many of the datacenters of Wallstreet's investment banks (Merrill Lynch), animation studios (Dream Works), and other countless sectors where extremely high reliability is required.

So if Linux is good enough for Banks, is it reliable enough for making music ?
Definitively !

Keyboards with Windows XP in it may be nice because their eyecandy GUIs etc, but seriously I would not risk to play live with a device that is Windows based.

Plus from the vendor's point of view by chosing Windows you are dependent from Microsoft for both upgrades, bugfixes and as a keyboard maker, should you have special needs, Bill Gates will just ignore you because you only sell units in the 100's (or 1000's) range and they will not change or improve the OS only to suit your needs since it will economically not pay off for Microsoft.

Not to mention that Microsoft's goal is to make you pay for the usage of their software not for the purchasing.
This probably means that in future you need to pay a yearly fee in order to continue to use your Windows OS. Would this acceptable for a keyboard vendor/user ? I don't think so.

I admit many cool software synths/samplers and sequencers are available on Windows.
This means for example the openlabs Eko can use any of them but this approach has several problems:
- not well integrated with the keyboard.
The keyboarder want to press 1-2 keys at max and have their sounds/players/styles etc loaded. Fiddling around with a windows desktop on the live stage is silly (and as domenik said, you will end up spending more time clicking around on your desktop than playing music).
- windows is nor designed for real time (audio is a real time application), nor has it proven to be stable enough, despite Microsoft's claims that Windows XP eliminated all stability problems of previous windows versions.

Why did we choose Linux ?
It allows us to stay competitive in both technical and economic terms.
We can customize every aspect of it, optimize it and tune it so that is performs just like a dedicated keyboard OS but with the power of a general purpose OS.

The Mediastation has its own powerful DREAM MIDI synthesis chips but since the keyboard will come with a 2GHz CPU you can run software synthesis and sampling too.

The plus of the Mediastation will be that you will be able to get new features and capabilities by simply hooking it up to the internet and pressing the UPDATE button.
For example for the next months we are preparing a really powerful sampling engine that will be able to stream multi-gigabyte samples directly from disk and even able to import formats like the .GIG where serveral extremely high quality sample libraries are available.
And all software updates will come for free for a lifetime, with lifetime online support through forums, chat etc. Can other keyboard makers claim the same ?

Our goal is to make all the software that powers the Mediastation open source so that users can customize it, improve it fix eventual bugs etc.
This means your hardware investment will never be obsoleted not even in the case that Lionstracs goes out of business (hopefully not ;-) ).

The the same open source development model that turned Linux into the fastest growing OSes with entire nations switching to it (see China, Southcorea articles on slashdot.org) and that is now one of the biggest threats to Microsoft (Stevel Ballmer, Microsoft's CEO said that), can be applied to the Keyboards market too and will probably shake up the entire industry.
The big vendors probably cannot afford to risk this move because this is an uncharted territory and most of the bigs lack technical knowledge in the Linux audio field because they sticked to their proprietary hardware designs (only recently Yamaha invested in Montavista, an embedded Linux company, but I guess it will take quite some time until they release a Linux based keyboard plus it will probably be closed using proprietary APIs).

The Mediastation is a big bet and as any new "invention" it carries some risk but we think the time is right because several factors are playing well together like linux being very stable, linux audio/midi programming interfaces mature (ALSA), PC hardware being powerful and cost-efficient, excellent hardware design of the mediastation (button controllers, internal mixer circuit boards, dream MIDI synthesis etc).

The mediastation's buttons are not hardwired to the various functions since all the handling is done in software. This means that user could customize the keyboard's functionality to suit his neeeds, add new modules, or let thirdparties to implement new functionality, either for a fee or for free.

VST: many of you would probably want to run VST plugins on such a PC based keyboard.
Well as you know we do not run Windows because all the disadvantages mentioned above.
BUT .... thanks to emulation technology it is possible to run VST plugins in a Linux enviroment. The emulation technology is still not perfect (mainly due to GUI issues) but there are already reports of a growing number of plugins that run perfectly under Linux.
(the DSP performance of VST plugins under Linux is the same as under Windows since the VST .DLLs are called directly like native linux DLLs and the plugins does not know that it does not run under Windows).

So we have two ways for VST: wait for the VST emulation technology improving.
Or provide an easy to use VST porting framework so that VST developers can take the source of VST plugins and recompile it under Linux.
The possibilities are endless and we will make sure that the Mediastation will be open as possible.
And all this added functionality will be available with the simple pressing of the UPDATE button.

The nice thing is that if you buy the Mediastation today you will get the same functionality as the person that will buy it in a year because the software update system always syncs up to the current relase.

Want more power ? Did you know contrary to Windows, Linux is already fully optimized and cabable to run on 64-bit CPUs ?
As soond as the AMD64 Opteron mainboards will be reasonably cheap (I guess a few months) we will build the Mediastation 64-bit model, where you probably can measure the number of voices in the thousands range ;-)

As you see, the Mediastation will never be obsoleted and it is not a simple "PC in a keyboard case". I would say it is a new trendsetter, a device that will give unlimited power to musicians without sacrificing ease of use.

Some sceptics still not convinced that Linux is not good to do real time audio ?

See these benchmark diagrams that I made with my latencytest tool, a tool that puts the machine under an extreme load (writing large files running CPU hungry tasks, stessing the video card etc) and measures the minimum audio latency you can achieve without getting dropouts, crackles and pops:

The box was a Pentium 133, not a 2GHz CPU .... ;-)
http://www.gardena.net/benno/linux/audio/2.2.10-p133-3x128/3x128.html

cheers,
Benno

Benno,
Thanx for the Super reply and explaination of how the X76 works. The concept is very interesting, makes sense & seems to be what the future holds. I hope the words "User Friendly come to mind also when using the
X-76, that is combination with the high tech OS, online future upgrades make your product very attractive. Please keep us informed. Thanx for sharing.

Donny NJ

------------------
www.donnypesce.com

Domenik & SBenno
Thanks for all information. You made me curious after explaining the concept. Please let us know when the internet site is optimized or the X-76 (demo) is available.

Domenik : I was not aware of the fact you are one of the engineers/designers. I wrote 'to be honest...' what means "In fact..." (nobody is a liar on this great forum )

Roel

[This message has been edited by Roel (edited 10-03-2003).]

Thanks Donny,
yes we will keep you guys posted, we are really in the final sprint phase and the pieces of the puzzle are coming along nicely and will very soon bear their fruits.
As for user friendliness do not worry, some of the lionstracs people are musicians themselves and regularly play in piano bars and with bands so they know what the musicians want. Plus they are in contact with groups of keyboarders that are totally computer illiterate which help us to test the ease of use of the keyboard. The mediastation will be just as easy to use as any other keyboard, just a few orders of magnitude more flexible.
And as said we plan to build a big user community around the mediastation where users can directly talk to developers, contribute ideas AND code thanks to the open source development model.
This means that the software will constantly getting improved with maximum benefits for everyone.

cheers,
Benno

What a concept. . . dialogue between the designers and the people who actually use the keyboard BEFORE something goes wrong!
If the keyboard continues to develop and becomes available, you may capture the high-end market.
DonM

I'm not surprised to see how well Linux performs in real time audio tasks. Linux is a PC version of the "old" Unix OS, born in scientific/academic communities (physicians, for example, use it, almost exclusively). Unix/Linux is, originally, a command language, like MS-DOS, and the huge Linux community has developed other software layers that have been making it a very user friendly OS, and prefered by many people, even not very computer literate. For example, recently, Munich (Germany) decided to equip the public administration with the free/open OS Linux (check the story here: http://www.linuxworld.com/story/32690_p.htm ). Consequence: a considerable Microsoft crisis, not only because of the direct and obvious economic consequence but specialy because of the "bad example"...

I've been using Linux for more than 10 years, in my scientific work, doing heavy math and physics simulations, that sometimes take days to complete (my first PC with Linux was an old 486/DX2!!). It has brought me a lot of independance in my work, and I perfectly know that it has a huge potencial in terms of suitability to perform demanding CPU and RAM tasks. The reason is simple. The core of the OS is extremely compact and well thought out, leaving plenty of CPU and RAM memory for tasks from applications. This, the fact that is free, open and that it's already conceived for 64-bit CPUs make me think about this project as a very promising one.

My only concern remains reliability, enough support. enough community size... But I'll be following the progress with interest!

-- José.

Hi DonM...
Finally slow slow I see that here the people starting to know what really is Linux, what for the possibility can give and what now Mediastation can really do.
About the available....monday we get the first 5 complete Mediastation X-76 and the next month start the full production, just the time to testing some software and then are AVAILABLE for a lot of people.

Sure when is available we capture the high-end market, the fist one are the DJ with the double audio player, X-fade, scratching, Groove sampler..
Have fun guys....
Domenik

HI SBENNO,wellcome, this is the other BENNO,must say nice stuff you do,i am just a plain amateur player ,but allways interested in new stuff like keyboards and things,best regards,the other BENNO

domenic,

What an interesting product. I wonder if the user is able to load the systems by himself. Will there be an option of buying it without an os and then load it themselves? I don't know if you heard Lindows which is linux base system that they claim it will run many of Windows applications. If so, then it might be possible to load all applications that we already have like Cubase, B4, FM7, Reason. Thanks for sharing us all the info of your creations. We salute all the innovators like yourselve and the rest of your collegues for making our life a little easier.

Are planning to make a lite version or maybe a module with all same controller minus the bulky keyboard. Many of the musicians like myself don't want to spend $6000 for the keyboard. The only thing that I can afford to buy now is the Motif8 which If I did my wife will not talk to me for life. Hey thanks again for giving another cool toy. I can't wait till I put my hand in the X-76.

Dan

domenic,
1) what about possibility to start open source project for developing another "arranger module" for your keyboard? I mean project to develop this specification: http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/007317.html -- I did post it at this forum several days ago. May be several of this features already implemented by you?

2) How (and when) I can obtain your Mediastation X-76 here in Moscow, Russia?

Hi Ailev...saw your old Post...
I really think that we do a little more than your request in the arranger module. Look again in our webpage/software... then you see the all standard features...
About the song database like performance with a lot of function, we use MySql system, it mean NO LIMITS for all what you want.
I don't know when we delivery Mediastation in Russia,we think that the big quantity fly to USA, to our distributor MusicIndustries, NY...
Anyway we stay in contact
Domenik

Hello

It certainly sounds like an interesting project that you are working on. I must point out that $6000 for a keyboard is very expensive for many of us. And, while your ideas of lifetime support and upgrades are very admirable, I've been told this same thing by every PC maker and keyboard maker I have ever bought from. Practically every computer and musical keyboard I've owned in the last 10 years came with the promises of "it'll never become obsolete" and "it's fully upgradeable". Well, this really isn't the case. I'm sure we all realize this. So although your workstation may be a killer now, in a few years technology will have turned it into a quaint old-fashioned machine.

Still, I will be very interested to see the Megastation when it debuts and I wish you the best of luck!

Tom G.

[This message has been edited by TomTomSF (edited 10-03-2003).]

Dominik,
1) I can't to find many of new generation arranger's features in your screenshots (the only available materials on your site). E.g. "music database" -- this is music first, database second. Style manager -- this is first "what is style in music terms", second style picking. I understand that you have 2 styles present in your style manager but even if you have style morphing, it can be done in music terms or in tracks terms? It seems to me that all your Mediastation user interface is in "music programming ontology" (that is "track, event, midi-channel, audiostream etc.") but not "music performance ontology" (that is often style specific -- e.g. "descarga" in latin styles or "riffs" in swing styles).

Then rendering with style morphing. I expect to see something comparable with at list Onix 2.0 (http://www.jasminemusic.net/onyx20.htm) -- but in real time (in performance mode, not sequencer work mode).

More: can I apply some kind (not exactly from KarmaLab www.karma-lab.com) of karma-function to style tracks in real-time? I think -- no yet.

You are now more about quantity (e.g. if any databases mentioned then -- "unlimited, i.e. MySQL or PostgreSQL"), but I try to ask you about new features (e.g. if music database mentioned I will speak about metadata, ontology of this database, database schemata -- I mean not computer database schemata language but music terms supported in your database structure).

2) If this keyboard will be available only in USA -- it not that bad. I have friends in USA. They simply will send it to me in Moscow. Money is not so important to me in this case

danb wrote: "What an interesting product. I wonder if the user is able to load the systems by himself. Will there be an option of buying it without an os and then load it themselves? I don't know if you heard Lindows which is linux base system that they claim it will run many of Windows applications. If so, then it might be possible to load all applications that we already have like Cubase, B4, FM7, Reason."

Dan, it is not that easy as you might think:
a few problems:

- using Linux in the audio domain is that it requires careful setup and tuning to achieve dedicated-hardware-like latencies and performance.
- integration: lindows does not provide you with the applications that provide perfect integration of the Mediastations hardware buttons/audio/midi/mixer hardware with the operating system and graphical user interfaces.
- Lindows let you run some Windows applications on Linux thanks to Wine emulation technology. But the problem is that real time audio software is much harder to run than standard office software. So for now forget about taking Cubase SX and run it on Linux through Wine with the same performance / low latencies as on native Windows.
On the other hand it is easier to run VST plugins (see my previous posts) through this emulation layer since they often are really only a DLL that contains the DSP algorithms and an additional module that contains the GUI part.
But I do not like emulation too much, better to have native, recompiled applications, although as you know this takes some efforts thus does not come for free for the firms that want to port audio software to Linux.
Native Instruments produces indeed really cool audio software and perhaps could be persuaded to port some of their apps (eg the B4) to the Mediastation. This will only happen if they see a viable market in this field, eg first many mediastations are sold, second a chunk of these users want to buy their B4 plugin. Plus of course the easier it is for them to port the software to Linux the more probable that they will do it. As said the VST market is simply too big not to tap into, this means we certainly will try to make an easy to use porting layer available to make the Mediastation as flexible as possible. Just give us some time.

As for the price, I think if the mediastation is successful, Lionstracs will certainly build additional models with more affordable entry-level models.

TomTomSF wrote "Well, this really isn't the case. I'm sure we all realize this. So although your workstation may be a killer now, in a few years technology will have turned it into a quaint old-fashioned machine."

I don't think so, PC hardware's performance is increasing much faster than any other kind of electronic/DSP devices. Thanks of the modular concept of the mediastation, a combination of "off the shelf" PC components, additional audio/midi/mixer boards (which can in future replaced with more powerful ones) combined with ever evolving open source software the Mediastation will always remain on the bleeding edge.
You will be able to upgrade a few year old mediastation to a brand new one by simply swapping out a couple of boards (as said I'm only a software developer but I guess the authorized dealers/service centers could do that and the price would be much lower than buying a new model from scratch).

ailev wrote: "(e.g. if music database mentioned I will speak about metadata, ontology ..."
I'm not a arranger expert, but what do you mean with ontology, metadata etc ?
As for the arranger, it is a module implemented completely in software so it means that based on user feedback developers can improve it to suit all user's needs.
And being the Mediastation an open source platform, the style player/managing system/database can be improved even by skilled (software developers) users themselves. The result will be shared if it meets the required quality standards, the improvements can make it into the official mediastation software.
This is how the Linux development works. It is really a powerful model and has produced an OS that causes sleepless nights to directors and officials of the world's richest software company (aka Microsoft).
No one has applied that model in the keyboard market yet, but looking at history you can guess what kind of shockwaves it will send though the industry ;-)

ailev, Lionstracs is an italian company so I guess it would not make much sense to order one from the USA, there will be several european distributors where you can buy it without your mediastation travelling around the world a couple of times ;-)

cheers,
Benno

Hi Ailev
dont worry to try to find mediastation in the USA, when we have available some keyboards, you can contact me and we can shipping there in Moscow one Mediastation.
Benno had replyed your question
Ciao
Domenik

dominik,
thanks for your kind wish to sell to me one Mediastation directly to Moscow. Here in Moscow in music shops are present all top models of arrangers (Genesys, Yamaha, Technics, Roland, Korg) exept Ketron SD-1.

But Benno not answered my questions -- he simply refer to free software "all is possible" mantra. Yes, it is all possible to code in open platforms: but what you already coded and what I must to code by myself to provide music rendering with style morphing and karma-like functions? Nor Benno neither you even touch this arranger-specific topics, only general words about Linux/opensource blah-blah-blah in agressive marketing style. I know sufficient about Linux and free software, I want to know what you development effort can add to arrangers technology not in far fuzzy future but today or tomorrow. E.g. tell me, what new music technology (not computer technology! namely music technology) concepts you team incorporated in mediastation. 5000 standard styles -- this is not new technology. Music rendering (inserting nuances sinchronized among several tracks) -- is it here? Or it is standard style player that not render styles but only dump play it as exact midi?

Why you will be negotiating only with VSTi-makers? Why not with KarmaLab (or even MusicLab or Jasminemusic -- commercial rendering leaders)? But there are theoretical difficultes -- KarmaLab have performance time rendering technology, and MusicLab and Jasminemusic have only sequence-editing time rendering technology.

To your "open source" claim. What will be provided in CVS (all software or not all and under what license -- GPL, LGPL, Artistic Soft etc. -- it will be)and in what timing? Where I can see DevelopmentRoadmap -- to join development? And tell me that documentation to style module will be later -- and I can't start to develope alternative style rendering module by myself immideately, but only in never coming future when CVS and documentation will be in place

I will be waiting for your answers -- may be here at arranger forum, may be later at your new website.

And I am think about small investing project: to add some chunks of music learning software to your Mediastation and became VAR of such "music learning Mediastation" here in Moscow. Other keyboards can't accomplish this project right now.

Best regards,
ailev

-----

Hello Mediastation X-76 team,
Few questions here:

1.) Why not XG midi voice compatible, only
GM/GS ! XG gives much more control options and much more better voices than GM/GS !

2.) how about PRESET VOICES, how many and which voices/voice banks there would be pre-installed (anything like in other arranger keyboards, ie. like Solton, Yamaha, etc) ?

3.) how about STYLES, how many and which styles would be pre-installed (same question like above, ie. versus Solton, Yamaha) ?

4.) any up/down - programmable arpeggiator, and if yes, what kinds and exist there any presets ?

5.) how about accompaniment/rhytm section ?
and how about INTROs, FILL-INS/OUTS, BREAKS,
VARIATIONS, RITTANDO, ETC... rhythm section thingys - ie. how many per each type, etc ?
How about that, if there are those - at least - 8 simultaneous controllable and editable accompaniment tracks like those Solton and Yamaha has ?

6.) those MODULATION and PITCH BEND wheels -controllers are positioned too high on the
panel's surface.
Better place for them would be on the bottom left side (of contoller's panel surface) =>
better ergonome then.

7.) Why not 10" TFT screen right away ?

8.) exist there SIMULTANEOUS RIGHT1, RIGHT 2 (possible Right 3), LEFT, DRUMS,PERCUSSIONS,
PHRASES, PADS, etc... voices (16 visible and
playable at the same time => like Solton, Yamaha, etc...) and are they controllable/
editable, soloing, mute, etc... by those hardware sliders ? and if yes, are they controllable during live playing ?

9.) that dial wheel (on right side of the
screen) should exist flatter/thinner because it would be much better looking then (now it is so high). Diameter is OK, I'll think.

10.) Some1 wrote about those Cubase VST/SX sequensers, Kontakt/Halion samplers, etc...
Windows apps. Well, indeed that ability to run Lindows & Windows apps would be truly nice indeed, but I guess it may exist very
difficult task indeed.

Sorry, I forgot ask about these ones !

11.) Why each keyboards seems to be only 16 multitimbral ??? Why not 32 or 48 or even
64 ??? How it is with the mediastation X-76 Pro ?

12.) Is it possible put there 48 tracks sequencer which you could split to f.ex.
like 3 x 16 tracks, or 2 x 24 tracks, or
1 x 16 tracks + 1 x 32 tracks.
Further, you could trigger them by other
sequencer/by some keyboard putton ???
Maybe it would be then little a bit similar like Korg Triton has (actually, I don't know how Korg's two independent sequencers works)?

Hi Jolier, I try to reply to your question..I dont have always so much time to come here why we are working in the debugs..

Yep, for this first step we will use Red Hat 9 why is much stable, more of this question ask in benno, I'm not the Linux software engineer
Domenico

[This message has been edited by domenik (edited 10-07-2003).]

-----

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR REPLY SIR,
Sorry if you read my messages as complains etc... It wasn't. I only asked, that I'll
get full imagine that what kind thingys it
can do when compared to those "current" arranger keyboards. Well, indeed VERY GOOD
specs ! Well, well, ADM 64 - can we change
that motherboard and cpu when AMD 64 comes
out (and naturally when there exist software
for that 64 bit enviroment) !!!???

Thanks once more - and absolutely no any claims nor complains in my messages. Sorry,
if you thought so.

Best Regards/jolier

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jolier:
[b] -----

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR REPLY SIR,
Sorry if you read my messages as complains etc...
Hi Jolier
don't worry, my reply was only a normally reply and a little ironic too... why we know that nobody and company can now compare with us. If you think different, let me know who have a better keyboards features like mediastation and then we will shipping you one FREE.
Anyway we know well that we are NOT a big company like Yamaha, Roland, Korg..they sure can produce 100 times bigger than us, but they NEVER so soon can developing one keyboards like Mediastation. We are not looking for 1000 pcs production a months but only for the best keyboard.
Think about Mercedes SL5000 or Ferrari Maranello, small production but ONLY for the best people.... You can drive good with a Ford Focus or Honda too... but is the same car? You know what I mean..Anyway again, we dont have fear for this big companyes...first they must learn HOW a keyboard can give in output 116dB dynamic range, then MAYBE can try to use Linux...
About the AMD 64bit....only the mainboard and CPU to change, Linix is ALREADY working with 64bit, our application are only controls engine that can run in every CPU..

[This message has been edited by domenik (edited 10-07-2003).]

domenik,

> who have a better keyboards features like mediastation and then we will shipping you one FREE.

I need not FREE mediastation and I know that you developing great keyboard. But I can point to you at least one keyboard feature that you missing (at least now): karma function that present at Korg Karma. I mean not karma function namely, but any similar performance time feature. In arranger it should be applied not only to solo parts, but alsou to any track of style variation.

Then: performance-time style morphing like Roland VA-76 with BASS, DRUMS, and ACCOMPANIMENTS track grouppings.

And so on

domenik, I truly appreciate you effort, but you can be more clear in your intentions. Some musicians need 116dB dinamic range, but some musicians need new arranger function architecture (even not EMC-compatible

I beleve that you team can afford with this if you present your mediastation as truly open platform. Then features I mentioned will be developing in month -- may be not by your team but by third party developers or free software community.

Best wishes and thank you in advance,
ailev

Hi Domenik,

I think Alliev reflects well what has been the overall tone of several comments: you are taking the correct route to 'real innovation', but your attempt is still immature and overly focussed on the hardware and lower level software.

What's lacking (also from your pre-sales pitch) is the 'muscial' integration of it all. This in itself is quite natural given the stage in which your development is, but I would hate to see a good idea fail just because it was put on the market too soon.

This forum drives foremost on 'muscians'. Technology is very important to us but ONLY if it serves our ability to produce better music;

That being said, it should be clear from the frenzy of this thread that you have got everybody's attention; Just don't release your product too soon. And certainly not at the pricepoint of $6000.

In the application front, I still miss a software sampler (player), disk streaming if possible. I know that this is an issue within the Linux Audio community, but you might want to fuel developments in this area; Combined with your style player this should rock;

Oh, and please change the interface of the style player. It's not up to par with your other software.

My Conclusion: Good work! Maybe hire a couple of musicians...In fact why don't you offer a couple of the hotshots on this forum the chance to "test" & "audit" your prototypes. If your claims are found to be correct. if it works out, that should really fuel your (future) sales.

Ciao,

ellle

I fully agree with 'elle' that you shouldn't rush your product to market without extensive and exhaustive testing. Another thing is; if you want the world to know about your product why not showcase it at next years Winter NAMM in Anaheim, CA. January 15th-18th 2004? And if you do show it at NAMM at the very least give a video demonstration of the Lionstracs MediaStation and put it through its paces, ie., "actually play it" to let people know how it sounds and demonstate its features to give the possible buying public knowledge as to what it can and "can't" do. I noticed on your web site that even though you have been on the Web since February of this year you still don't have an 'audio' demo of your product? What does that tell me if I can't hear what it sounds like??? Trying to sell the Lionstracs MediaStation without first promoting it through various avenues of mainstream Music Media publications, conventions, and other music media venues will only only tend to hamper the development, implementation, presence, and recognition of your product. Take the eKo for example. Even though they 'were' at NAMM they DID NOT play the eKo for the public and because of it lost potential customer's interest exponentially. And now look at eKo-Labs. They are basically hanging by a thread and I predict will eventually fold for good. So much for innovation, huh? Without product presence and 'full' knowledge of what the product is about and what it can do by way of intricate and full "demonstration", etc., your product will probably never get off the ground and at the very least not reach the sales you expect to achieve because of lack of understanding by the public of what your product is about and what it can do.

Your concept is good. Your enthusiasm is right up where it should be. But now is the time to do 'thorough' testing and re-testing. Don't let the hype of your product exceed your expertise and implementation of the product itself to a savvy Music/Technology aware public. Showcase the product 'before' you release it. Let the buying public know "beforehand" what the Lionstracs MediaStation is 'all' about. Or are you not doing that because you want to hide something? Or for fear that your product would otherwise not be accepted if you did do that? "Open Source" is more than just Software. Lay it all on the table for the world to see. That is my recommendation. Then if your product is all it's cracked up to be - then and only then will the Music World take notice and then and only then will you 'perhaps' start to sell in volume.

Best regards,
Mike

[This message has been edited by Idatrod (edited 10-08-2003).]

I am wondering why the Liontracs people has not discussed about the arranger aspects of the keyboard. This is primarily an arranger forum, and many of us want to know how the fill-ins work, how many variations, intro/endings, styles - all arranger specific functions that are so dear to the live players on this forum. Don't just say, it can do this , it is programmable, etc, etc. Need specifics !

HINT for Liontracs people: just look at the Yamaha PSR2k series/Tyros and how those functions work - if you can just deliver the same functionalities but maybe greater musical quality, you will win. Many of the high end buyers will choose you over Tyros any day. KORG failed with their current offerings especially in the fill-in functions and not sure why it's so complicated to imitate Yamaha's. Yamaha higher end is sooo intuitive, the OS I mean - just mimic that.

And lower your price to around 2k-3k by lessening some of the features then I think you might get mass sales !

Hi Mike and Elle...
I have a lot of work to do, but when I see this post, I can't not reply...
Anyway, good replyes from both. First at all, we dont have NOTHING to hide, is not our fault if you are there in USA and not in Italy. We have here some mediastation samples ready, but all ( except one)are outside our company to our engineers and sound editors guys.Many musician are coming here and saw this keyboards, but of course we are not ready to delivery mediastation now, first we must complete some sofware parts and the big Sound Bank.
If you read at top, we have buy one new server in Canada with 60Gb HD for the data and installed the new Postnuke portal. Give us the time and soon you can see all the news, demo sound and video sound. The old Mambo portal are not ready for that and we CANT deleted the date: 18 feb 2003!!It is a bugs in the code of this portal.
Again, have patience and then you can see that we dont lie...all is true.
At NAMM 2004 we are there with the Music Industries Corporation and in Frankfurt Messe Germany 2004 too.
For elle, mediastation will delivered with a sampler disk player too and soon is available the Linux sampler, like the Gigasampler with the same gigasampler library.
Anyway, when our portal is ready, I will inform you and all this forum, then we have a forum there too, including demo area, downlod of MP3, MP4, Styles, sounds, patch, performances..
Yust to be patience a little more, then all the world can see that NO lie here...
We already get some good offer from interesting company that all you know... but I cant talk about this and NEVER we want leave this mediastation project for others company! This is OUR prestige, I'm sorry...
Domenik

Dear, read my topis before, I had explain how is working our arranger, I dont want type again...
Regards
domenik

Sensible answers indeed, Domenik
Patience, paying off..I'll buy that anyday :-)

On the sampler issue: can you shed some more light?

ciao,

Elle

I don't see your post about arranger functions.
Is this an arranger keyboard?
Starkeeper

Domenik,
As starkeepr me and one other people have been asking - there are three of us asking the same questions: you have not discussed the arranger functions !! I repeat, you have not discussed it.

This is an arranger forum. Have you ever played YAMAHA PSR2100 or TYROS ? 100% of the people here have this question in their mind: WHERE ARE THE ARRANGER FUNCTIONS ??

How is it compare to the YAMAHA's. And if the answer is "it does not exist" or "it is not important to us at the moment". Well, you are talking largely to the WRONG audience. Many of us will not buy your board. Gigging players like UD, Scott and countless others are relying on the arrangers to make their living.

I really suggest that you or someone at your staff gets familiar with the arranger functions of the Yamaha PSR2100 or TYROS and so you can discuss it intelligently here in this forum. I really think it would be a piece of cake for you guys to include the arranger functions and you will definitely captured the hearts of people in this ARRANGER FORUM and your keyboard if it does what you said PLUS the arranger functions then I think it becomes the GOLD standard to judge other keyboard with.

Will there be a Duo-keyboard?

well friends
I told before, I don't have always time to come here and post reply....I must working too!
Anyway all your request need a reply.
Yes, MEDIASTATION HAVE one Arranger...SORRY, HAVE 2 ARRANGER!

Now you want have specification,ok, you get some specifications:

The two Style player playing sound trough the first 128 Voice DSP processor
The keyboard will use INDIPENDENT the second 128 Voice DSP processor.
In COMBI mode, the keyboard can play UP to 8 Layer sound in the second DSP,
Key range, velocity switch, midi Ch and all midi function programmable for each performance.

Standard Arranger feautures under SEQ24 sequencer:
Realtime ( LIVE) functions, DOUBLE STYLES PLAYER
(Double MIDI File and AUDIO/Wav/MP3, VIDEO File Player, same system)

1 16 pattern arranger: 4 Intro, 4 Endind, 4 variation, 4 Fills
2 16 MIDI channel for each pattern ( 16 parts and not 8 like al the keyboards)
3 16 Realtime Volume: Drums, Bass, Chord 1 to Chord 14, with slider C1-to C8, Bank A/B
4 16 realtime MUTE traks, with Duble Color LED, RED=OFF, GREEN=ON, Key C1 to C8, Bank A/B
5 16 realtime Drums MUTE Variation, is possible turn ON/OFF 16 drums instruments from note range C-2 to C6
6 16 realtime SOLO Tracks Function
7 Key start – ability to start play on keypress
8 Key stop – ability to stop play on keyup
9 One Key – Play chords with one finger [major/minor]
10 Key Hold - Holds chords until next change
11 Beat Change (Live mode/ next quarter note / next pattern )
12 Jump – Auto jump to next pattern
13 Break – Restart Style
14 KeyPad Intro/Ending/Fill/Variation – Set what is playing next relative
to Beat Change
15 Midi In Chord translation – Select Proper Tracks (Major, Minor, 7th, 7thdim)
16 Realtime Trasnpose of Midi (not CH10)
17 Realtime Tempo Change
18 Crossfade from one Style to the another, 16+16 MIDI chanel used to 2 MIDI OUT Indipendent


Editing Styles:

1 Full edit MIDI event list parameters
2 Piano Roll function
3 Full MIDI patchbay matrix to 14 MIDI OUT, indipendent for each PATTERN!
4 32 insert AUDIO.Wav in each Styles
5 Audio Pitch shift mode: change the pitch and the Tempo
6 Audio Scretching mode: change the pitch but NOT the Tempo

System:

1 Remote Midi Control Setup under ALSA DEVICE
2 Loading of Next Styles in Play Mode in LESS than 1 sec!
3 Import Styles from MIDI file
4 Improt Automatic style Styles from EMC Style converter
5 performance mode: link the style, the keyboard sound, the pitch, the transpose, the tempo...
6 Unlimited styles files under Disk browse
7 Unlimited performance styles user linked in the Silicon keys+LED
8 Unlimited performance bank: 1 Bank=10 SUB Bank, 1 sub Bank=12 presets
9 Automatic FREE download NEW styles by Internet in LIONSTRACS Server!


So friends, IF is not enough for starting with a great arranger, then yust waiting the next FREE release. Linux comunuty will help us for develope much better..
If you don't like this performance, then ask in your friend to editing our LINUX source code and you get all what you want.
If you finally have understand the endless possibility of Linux, remain with your old system keyboard and WAIT IF they someday will release some new upgrade.

Ciao Friends
Domenik

Anybody wants to challenge the LIONSTRACS ??

If you can really do that, then it IS the keyboard to beat. I was worried that it is not really an arranger keyboard. Thanks Domenik !

Thanks Lukitoh
don't worry, all what I say is true, be patience and soon you can see and listen too.
Forget to say:
In mediastation we dont use Flash for store the Sound Bank but one standard DIMM 256Mb for each DSP processor. In this way we can building and reloading new sound bank when we want. Actually we have ready one 42Mb sound Bank, with about 1300 sounds, think when is available the 150 or 256Mb sound bank..
At this point come the big problem...
HOW we can listen the great sound with all the standard midifile??
Well, we have resolved this problem too.
Mediastation have a MySql unlimited database made for the COVER, like the Roland Discovery. you chose one Cover set ( or you building your self) and when is playing the midi player, the cover change in realtime all the program and Variation how you like, in the midi chanel that you chose!
Other stuff that we forget to say...
In the new SAM9708 Firmware, is already the function Voice to Midi/score. When you sing in the Mic, the firmware will play one Instruments from the sound bank! So... IF you can't sing, anyway you can playing with your ( bad ) voice one instrumets, like a Sax, lead....understand?
I repeat again, this function is already made by the firmware, we have opened ONLY one GUI for the control.
Cheers

This IS fascinating. But where does this Liontracs come from? I'm NOT trying to challenge, Domenik, but has Liontrak produced anything else in the past? What's the 'SM-X expander' advertised on the website? Is that also a Linux-based product? Has that been released yet?

Like I say, it seems truly amazing, but sounds too good to be true, and I think others in the forum too want to see something concrete about the company/development of the product/audio demos.

Replying on this forum must indeed be very time-consuming for you, and inconvenient amidst your heavy schedule. But remember that you have a big potential market here on SynthZone, and creating interest here (as you are successfuly doing) are sure to create a number of future sales of such a great and novel product.

Also, why don't you guys update your website? At least reply to the FAQ's people are posting. I know you said that audio demos and specs are on their way, but you would certainly succeed in creating an early interest in your product if you posted a high-quality photo of the keyboard, showing off all its buttons, features etc.
Remeber having a good website goes a long way in creating a good image of your product in peoples' minds - even if you haven't yet released your product.

Kind regards,

Zalman

Hi friends
here is the link where you can see the arranger editor GUI


Seq24 v0.4.3

(click for larger view)
http://www.filter24.org/seq24/screenshot.v43.png

Cheers

Hi folks, sorry for the late answer, I was quite busy as always ;-)

a few answers:
aliev wrote "But Benno not answered my questions -- he simply refer to free software "all is possible" mantra. Yes, it is all possible to code in open platforms: but what you already coded and what I must to code by myself to provide music rendering with style morphing and karma-like functions? Nor Benno neither you even touch this arranger-specific topics, only general words about Linux/opensource blah-blah-blah in agressive marketing style. "

;-)

I'm not a marketing droing, I'm sorry I base the things I say on facts and in particular source code. ;-)
I'm not the person that writes the arranger/styleplayer for the mediastation this is why I do not touch that subject. But as as domenik said the Mediastation will run on a special version of the seq24 sequencer for linux whose features were described above by domenik.
To make aliev happy besides than including "traditional" style players, we are in contact with a computer music research lab at an italian university and they are among the leaders in manipulation of symbolic manipluation of music. They are interested to contribute to the Mediastation.
How about style players capable of improvisation and other weird stuff that requires much more intelligent algorithms than those that run a "stupid" style player which is nothing more than a sequencer where you can switch the patterns in real time.

aliev (and others) just enlist your wishes here on the forum and I will forward them to the computer music researchers and let you know if this can (and will) be done.

aliev wrote: "Why you will be negotiating only with VSTi-makers? ..."

Never said that, I said we will make the Mediastation as open as possible so that both open source developers (those that release the source code of their apps) and commercial players that want to sell their plugins/apps can provide thirdparty modules for the Mediastation.

aliev wrote "To your "open source" claim. What will be provided in CVS (all software or not all and under what license -- GPL, LGPL, Artistic Soft etc ..."

Well most of the software will be GPL and some libraries LGPL so that developers of commercial modules can link their apps to the libraries and modules needed to work in the Mediastation enviroment.
Perhaps there will be some binary only, proprietary firmware loaders, but that's about it and will not pollute the Mediastation's enviroment in any way.
Of course CVS, developer mailing list etc will all be here.
We do not believe much in the proprietary software model ... just look at how rapidly the Linux OS is expanding. And companies make money too (IBM, HP, Dell, Red Hat, Suse etc).

One would say, if you release the code your competitors can copy it and release a similar product profiting off your hard work.
Well this is true only in part thanks to the GPL license. The GPL license requires that you release modifications to the code, this means that if a competitor enhances let's say our style player he is required to release the source code modifications this means we can use it too.
Plus think about it .... developing audio software is not that easy, in the linux domain we have quite some lead over other (potential) competitors.
This means even if they take our sources they will need quite some time to study them and get familiar with them and as always the developers of the apps itself are those that know the code best (like their pockets I would say ;-) ).
I think the success of the Mediastation lies into a combination of good hardware, a team of developers that writes good open source software, code and idea contributions that come from the developer/user community.

aliev wrote: "And I am think about small investing project: to add some chunks of music learning software to your Mediastation and became VAR of such "music learning Mediastation" here in Moscow. Other keyboards can't accomplish this project right now."

Exactly, such third party modules/services will be possible and very welcome because it increases the value of of the Mediastation product.


aliev: small preliminary hint: you said you want to write music learning software. All of the software modules that power the Mediastation, like MIDI players, MIDI chip sound parameters, audio players, software samplers, user interfaces, lamps on the keyboard etc are managed by an internal message passing system.
This means you can record every event that occurs and store it on disk and "play it back" later.
This would be ideal for music learning software since you could just make your own demos by simply using the Mediastation and then store the result. The student can play back the demo seeing the same actions that you performed in the demo.
Of course for music learing some additional features are needed but this event system will be a solid base for developers to build upon since they can control pratically everything from within their apps.
We even plan export to Sysex, this mean you can fire up your sequencer and store all the Mediastation setup in a midi sequence or let se sequencer drive the mediastation automagically.
Eg let the sequencer start the playback of a DVD on the video out while firing up the style player configured with the wanted style, setting up the midi routing matrix for complex combi sounds etc ...

Ok I need to stop otherwise I risk aliev accusing me of agressive marketing ;-)
... just kidding ... anyway the event system is here and it is really powerful just a bit more patience so that you will be able to touch it with hands and make your judgements (and perhaps contributions to make it rock even more ;-) )

elle wrote "On the sampler issue: can you shed some more light?"

the sofware sampler we will integrate is linuxsampler (written by me and some other linux audio developers).
http://www.linuxsampler.org (there is only an experimental version online for now, but we have a development version in the works that supports full AKAI / GIG playback.

Not sure when linuxsampler will make it into the Mediastation, I guess a few months, but at that point expect to just take your multi-gigabyte sample library , put the CD into the Mediastation and start playing.

For the beginning the sampling capabilities of the Mediastation will probably be a bit limited but as said above a simple pressing of the UPDATE button (while being hooked up on the internet) and a few mins of downloading will bring your mediastation on the state of the art.
This means linuxsampler will be automatically downloaded and installed, this means the users that bought the Mediastation from day 1 will just have the same software as those that bought it several months later.

Your hardware investment will never be obsoleted. And since it is all opensource, even should Lionstracs go out of business (hopefully not ;-) ) the Mediastation and its community will always live and evolve. Can other keyboard say the same ?

Plus if you are a hardware freak you can even tune and boost your Mediastation yourself by changing mainboards, CPU, RAM, etc.

About the new website I spoke with the web guys and I guess it will be ready in about 10-15 days with audio/video demos following a bit later, but at least you will see pics of what kind of circuit boards are under the hood of the Mediastation.
I know there are just too much vaporware projects around or projects that fail before they are released on the market.
So from an user's standpoint it is better to be a bit sceptical until the iron cannotbe touched with hands at least at a music tradeshow, in a store etc.
I say you only one thing: I would not work for a vaporware company or a company made up of marketing droids with no real product of business model (dot-bomb style companies that made the "new economy" fail), that would simply go against my own principles.

cheers,
Benno

Hi Benno,

Yes, I already tracked that you had to be the "sample guy". Quite anxious to see how your project will turn out in "a few months" (is that a promise?);
It won't be easy. The heat is up in the disk-based softsampler land: Mach5, Kontakt and... the upcoming Giga 3.0.
Exiting times. Keep up the good work.

ellle

It sounds as if you are making the "mother of all keyboards". I worry that it may try to do so much that it is not user-friendly, and may be too expensive. However, if you can produce such an arranger keyboard for a reasonable price, you will most certainly experience success beyond your wildest dreams. Good luck!
DonM

Most interesting to me is notion of sbenno about symbolic calculations in music. It can be breakthrou in styles.

Well, I will be waiting until Mediastation will be available to me in hardware, software and documentation. This is usual in open source projects: core team not as open as many people can think.

With regards to improving the arranger functions:

I would like to see the better features of the current keyboard arrangers duplicated (e.g. dynamic arranger, etc.) BTW, I really like the way Synchro Stop is done in Ketron keyboards - a quick press on the left-hand keys will cause it to stop. This is better than stopping it whenever the left hand keys are lifted. You might consider making this type of operation a configurable option.

The symbolic programming sounds interesting; however, my concern is that it should be useable by the performing players (easy to cotrol). I am not familiar with Karma functions, but Yamaha has control over "Grooves and Dynamics". It would be nice to have real-time control over these, so that one could "funk-up" a style in mid-play.

REgards,
Alex

Ciao Ailev
I'm happy if you in future will help benno in development software. If you have good idea, sure we will integrate it in our system. How you say, this is really first keyboard OPEN SOURCE, it mean that all musician/engineers can develope in it, fix and add more new function!

About your post for the PA-X...now you can understand that they try to start at low price, but then if you want to have a complete keyboard, you are close the 4500$ or more.
About mediastation X-76, base version, the END USER price is about $ 6000, why we in italy we have 20% TAX, it mean: $5000+20% TAX=$6000. Germany have only the 17%, USA about 9.5%...
Every country have a different price of course.
Anyway, always forget to say..... Madiastation HAVE a 24 STEREO INPUT Mixer, 4 Stereo BUS, 4 MIC Inputs... then let me know how much cost so big mixer there...
add this cost and then yoy dont have a mediastation??

Domenik

Domenik,
Pls make sure the arrangers functions buttons such as the fill, etc are on the left side like the popular arranger keyboards out there and near the playing keys. EKO does not appear to have those, so they ruled themselves out of arranger market !

Price is still way out of my range though. If you get it down to below 2k that will be very good. I don't need 24 inputs, etc - just the basic features like the PSR2100.

Hi
dont worry, all the arranger keys are positioned to the left side.
here you can see the PDF layout of the Mediastation front panel: http://www.lionstracs.com/FrontX76.pdf

One news more, yust today we have tested the first Beta of Linuxsampler and we can read all the GigaStudio .GIG library!
The standard mediastation will shipped with AMD CPU Athlon 2Ghz and had play about 180 Voice with the Linuxsampler! Now you know how much data library you can load, all in realtime.
End this month, Sbenno will testing the AMD 64bit Opteron too and then you will informed of how many MORE sampler Voice and Synth Voice we can offer in this keyboards.
So, you get standard 256 Voice made by Dream DSP hardware, + you can ADD more 2 wavetable 128 Voice each, 180 Voice from Linuxsampler and about 120 Voice from the Softsynth.
In COMBI mode, we can reall 8 Layer sound, from where you want, now you can understand the final impact!
Soon I will post some new mediastation hardware pics, how is made inside ( 11 new own PCB boards, + CPU board AMD!)Of course you can see the 24 stereo IN Mixing PCB too, with the MAIN XRL MIX Out, the Xrl CUE Mix Out...116dB Dynamic range.
We DONT put PC mainboards and some USB controller in one case...
For that system, you need yust buy one standard PC, add the same USB controllers and external TFT Touch screen and you do the same like a lot of company. But is really working in all the parts? May you play in live mode?

Again, to be patience, we are at the NAMM 2004 and then all our words are reality.
cheers

Could u PLEASE add a joystick type controller to the right of the keyboard? An open source keyboard deserves to have both wheels and a joystick.

Sorry I meant left of the keyboard :-)

Hi friends
I take some pictures of Mediastation internal wiev: http://www.lionstracs.com/x76pcb/DSCN3632.JPG
http://www.lionstracs.com/x76pcb/DSCN3632.JPG

I have a lot too, but for here I think is enough.
Cheers
domenik


[This message has been edited by domenik (edited 10-20-2003).]

[This message has been edited by domenik (edited 10-20-2003).]

I'm sure I echo many other's opinions when I say "I wish you well" on this new adventure, and you were wise to put your "feelers" out at this site. We buy alot, and we influence many others.
With THAT said ....... to paraphrase Cuba Gooding Jr in Jerry Maguire:
"Show me the keyboard"\
Slow down on the hype, and put it in our hands. After the show, you can fluff your feathers and send out demos, but till then .... we need to see product, not hype.
I really do wish you much success in this giant endeavor. Many "Farrari" type companies have tried a hand in this market with little success. Tough to compete with Ford and GM in the real world .... even if you DO Make a superior product. I had a Sony Betamax vcr because it was better than VHS ... now I can't find a unit to play some of my cherished famiy home videos. Point taken?
Good luck.

Hi all guys...right now we have posted the new server with postnuke...Now just some patience that we add the others page with the demo files.
The new DNS is not ready to work with all provider..need some days...
Waiting from your registration and comments too...
Cheers

I think that no joystick too the left is a major letdown.
Besides that, it might be a great product.

While this all sounds very cool and being a person with a severe case of gear lust I am interested.

The thing that really concerns me is the Linux o/s. In the replies here there is a lot of "possibilities" mentioned with it. That however is not reality and availability.

Most of us here are not programmers and certainly not Linux programmers. To me much like Apples (Mac) they may be great computers, however when one goes looking for 3rd party software etc., it's pretty tuff to find anything compared to Windows available things. So while Windows does need improvement (running on the EKO) at least there are tons of programs and voices already available for it.

No offense but relying on the good intentions of companies with new visions does not translate to reality. I would certainly hate to wind up with a $6000.00 paper weight in my studio and that's what this will be if there is not sounds, styles and whatever else available in the aftermarket to run on Linux.

BTW: several of the links that were given here are no good to pictures etc. I hope the Liontracs works better than that.
Terry

------------------
jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

I would also add that at this price bracket, for me it will have to be a total integration of a workstation and arranger, as I paid less for my combination of Tyros and Motif ES8.
Terry

------------------
jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Sorry for playing the parts of the devil's advocate, but I thik that things seems too easy here.

First of all, seems that Liontracs people forget that most of the keyboard player are not programmers, nor want they become programmers. So they better pay attention to this, or they will cut out a lot of potential customers.

Second, linux is both a pro and a con.
They already explained us why linux is a good choiche: it is simpler, it is more stable (much more stable) and it is open. Now let me try to explain why it isn't a good choiche.
Linux growth is big and fast, but available software is still not comparable with windows. Moreover, if I properly understood their messages, they will use a customized Red Hat version... well, if Liontracs will ever go out of businness, how many people in the world will be able to support this software? BTW the number of developers worldwide is much bigger for windows than for linux, and so are the development environments.
Another consideration: like it or not, Microsoft is a big company, that will last for many years from now, much more than any of us; I don't know what will happen with linux, and what will happen with a customized version of one of its dialects; but, if I have to bet, I'll bet on Microsoft!

Then, the price. 6000$ (well 5000$ + taxes) is a big amount. Too big! With those money in my pocket now, I'll run to buy both an arranger and a workstation, without regrets not doubts.
We all should remember that the project is young, so is the software. I will like to give to Liontracs people all the trust of the world, but who will pay 5000$ (+ taxes) for being their experimenter-debugger-developer (and, maybe, victim)? Because there will be a lot of bugs inside there, no doubts! They can be the best programmers of the world, but bugs will still be present for a while.

I don't know who give them the money to start the company, nor I know their marketing projections about earnings. So if their goal is to sell the board to professional players only, maybe their are on the right road. But if they planned to have a consumer market, they should cut down the price to a more affordable level (2000$ or less).
I can buy the new KORG arranger AND the new Yamaha Motif for that amount... should I say more?


[This message has been edited by RicFreak (edited 11-10-2003).]

I think the commenters have good point. Who will bet $5000 or more on a company they never had any experience ? Who will bet even $1000 ? Probably a risk taker type person or one that has lots of time and money to kill.

Unless you sell it at some place like Guitar Center that has like 30 days moneyback guarantee.

It will be a tough sell I bet.

Most linux users are not programmers either. There is this common misconception here that linux is an OS for programmers, which
is not reality. You can install software, configure it and run it just like you do in Windows or Mac, and this is why they are using Red Hat. There is even great tools for updating your software from internet, so you
could get the audio software running on the mediastation updated to newer and more featured versions without purchasing more expensive models.



Well, look, first of all any product has a given lifetime. You dont see yamaha supporting the SYs, or roland supporting the junos. But since this seems to use all standard opensource components, many of which are mantained independently, your mediastantion will continue to be improved with time even if lionstracs goes out of business.



For your information, the opensource movement is based on communities of such mangitude that windows does not posess.



Open Source software does not perish, due to its openness. If the mediastation was based on microsoft products, it could never be as customizable.




Really? lets see how you manage to carry all that to a performance or a studio.




This makes no sense. Even if bugs allways exist (heck even my Roland XP has bugs and crashes from time to time) they are professional developers. This is about bringing a product to the end-user which will come well documented, with all the necesary manuals, etc. Linux is just the OS it's based on, it's customized and it's open (even Yamaha uses linux for their advanced workstations and)




I should.. I dont think they are the same kind of product. I think the nice thing of the mediastation is that you are getting good sound synthesis and sequencing plus all the apps you can install with no modification on it. So you can also have a sampler of the quality of giga or halion, or software synthesizers of the quality of reaktor, fm7 or DAWs at the level of protools all running together in the same machine.

Product sounds interesting, but I dont think it compares with the neKo....

You can get a base modle for less than $3000!

You can still run linux if you want!

Customizable control panels!

64 bit now available (for the same price as mediastation) !

Just to name few.

Dear Lukitoh....
for ONLY your know...Lionstracs in in this music world from 10 years...
I been the first one in europe ( 8 years ago) that had sell for half milion $ Digidesing Protools, 14 digital studios made my self withOUT mixer, only protools system. After that, Digidesing had developed all the mixig system. Media Records (www.mediarec.it) is our 50% partners, so...we know well what is music and digital studios.
After that, look in Google and search: MEGAFLOPPY, then you can see what I had developed, maybe a stupid stuff for now, but 8 years ago, I was the first worldwide and nobody had try to be copied, to much hard to do.. We been client of Roland Europe and they had produced the G-800 with Megafloppy...
Before we had developed the Megastation keyboards and expander....
I had developed some PCB boards from Alenia Aerospace....
We are the producer of the Solton SG-X ( www.solton.de), my master HW enginner develope HQ PCB board for Fast Web technology, satellit system and 64bit PCB boards...

So...if this is not enough for your know, let me know..

At this point, I'm happy to accept any critical about Mediastation, why nobody ( except we from lionstracs) had saw and listen the sounds...are A LOT....the last one with the .GIG library..
S
w
Well people...post all the question and critical how you want, but DONT tell us that we dont have Experience in that!

Anyway....NAMM is not far away...
Again..mediastation is not made for the low level users...for less money, buy a Roland, Korg, yamaha or windows PC and stay be happy for what you get. Then buy a 24Ch stereo mixer, effect, Gigasampler..synth.. and let me know how much you will spend..

Cheers frinds

dominek,
Most of us already own that extra equipment you say we'd have to buy, so in reality we would be duplicating it with Liontracs.

I love and buy new equipment but even for me $6000.00 is very hard to justify, for something that basically uses soft synths, with some hard surface controllers.
Terry

------------------
jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

I know what you mean, but sorry, this is the keyboard that a lot of single musician want. I play the keyboards too, from more 30 years, piano bar, clubs, disco..
For me, like a lot of people, we playing performance alone, or with a max more one singer. We need a compact equipment, less cable, rack, box....one complete keyboard that stay in all the cars, need only the power supply monitor.
I respect your idea too, dont worry! Till now I had play with my old Megastation and Roland G-800 too

Cheers

Yes, it does not compare, the former is a keyboard/music workstation with a well thought out integrated enviroment while the latter is a Windows PC in a Keyboard case.



But for that price you get basically a PC in an empty, keyboard case without internal display dedicated buttons (for arranger, soundselection, arranger, player/sequencer etc).
Without MIDI chips. Who is going to provide high quality General Midi playback ?
All in software ? What high quality GM/GS midi playback engine do you ship with the keyboard, How much does it cost, how good does it sound ?
(I'm talking about the $3000 version, because your post sounds like the $3000 Neko will be better than the $5000 Mediastation)
What does "Bundled Software and Sounds" mean ?
If it does not sound at last as good as the Roland JV1080 it will be worthless for the average musician.

Now assume I want at least basic audio/midi sequencing, professional style player, included styles, sounds, soft-sampler and softsynth.
These modules cost at least $400-$500 apiece.
Add that up and you quickly get past to the $5000-$6000 mark.



Installing what a standard linux distribution ? where is the traditional integrated enviroment ?
I can run my coffe machine on Linux too (as long as it has one of the CPU types supported by the kernel) but it does not mean that I turned my coffee machine in a musical keyboard.
Or will you rely on the special Mediastation's Linux sofware ? :-)




Ok please specify how much I need to pay for the control panels to get all the equivalent buttons the Mediastation has. (176 keys).
Where can I buy them, what kind of software can interperate with alle these buttons ?



64 bit used in 32 bit mode because Windows XP is not 64 bit capable and will be unable to work well in 64 bit for many many months: read the nightmare that await owners of AMD 64bit boxes on Windows XP: http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,112749,pg,6,00.asp

Not running a 64bit CPU in 64bit means driving your Ferrari without being able to switch past the 3rd gear.

On the other hand Linux is fully 64bit capable and can address as much memory as your mainboard supports (new Opteron mainboards support about 16GB of RAM)

The 64bit Mediastation is in the testing phase too, but with the nice difference that we get full RAM addressability, full CPU speed due to native 64bit mode.

Windows is simply the wrong OS to run on a Keyboard, regardless the availability of cool VST apps.




Just to prove you wrong on a few points :-)

Sorry for the ironic post but I think the Mediastation does not deserve all this bashing because no one has seen it in action yet and no one can prove that it does not work as advertised, Linux not up to the task, that the keyboard does not offer any value for the money becuase one could obtain the same stuff by assembling it by himself etc.

I think it makes sense to wait a little bit more for making further judgements.
When the keyboard will be available to touch it with your hands it will be easier for everyone to make their conclusions.

I hate hyping too, even if I work for a product/system I hate when untrue things get said or marketing is dominated by dishonesty.

Let's wait for the iron showing up at this NAMM :-)

cheers,
Benno




[This message has been edited by sbenno (edited 11-11-2003).]

Benno, don't let us discourage you from your mission. Sure we have questions and we sometimes have doubts about the Lionstracs but these questions and doubts can only help you in your quest to produce the 'ultimate' Workstation/Arranger Keyboard - by providing you with understanding of what we as Musicians want in a Keyboard. Even the negative comments can be used by you to improve upon the Lionstracs. But don't get discouraged by all the nay-sayers. If the Lionstracs is indeed an "All-in-One" Keyboard that does all that you say it will -(from reading what you said in your posts) - and is indeed a mind-boggling fantastic product that will blow us away by its functionality, features and quality of "sounds"; then I'm sure you will find a niche market for the Lionstracs Mediastation. But all of the features will be meaningless unless it has those fantastic "sounds". That is the number #1 selling point of ANY Keyboard. All of the other stuff takes a back seat to the quality of sound the Lionstracs produces. But to have quality sounds AND fantastic 'features' will be Bravissimo!!!

Don't let us deter you and don't get discouraged. Press On!! Your determination to build the next Monster Keyboard is highly admired if only for the fact that you have a vision and you are working hard to see that vision come to pass by skill, knowledge and fortitude. I am looking forward to seeing the NAMM video of the Lionstracs and also hearing it in action!

Best regards,
Mike

Best regards,
Mike

benno,
Are they going to be available at local stores? I live in Sacramento, Ca. do you know if there will be any to be tried out, or do we not know yet until after NAMM and see who buys and who doesn't?
thanks,
Terry

------------------
jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

I think that if the mediastation has all that it says it has then I think it is a keyboard that musicians want especially if it includes what an arranger and work station can do. For me being able to upgrade sounds and OS and have a lot of memory for composing and programming my own styles songs and sounds is necessary for me in a keyboard. However one should not have a PHD in rocket science to use it to the maximum. Also tech assistance should be available with eas. We will just have to wait for when they show the board to people to see if what they are saying is true. I really hope they are not just marketing and playing with numbers to make their product sound good. We will see what they present at Namn

responding to Mike: thanks for your nice words, do not worry about "Benno, don't let us discourage you from your mission. ....".
If I was not a thickskinned person I would not post to forums and mailinglists (where flames are on the order of day :-) ).
Anyway as you said feedback (both positive and negative) is very useful for improving a product, idea, system or an application.

Responding to trtjazz, I don't know about distribution since I'm a developer but I think after the NAMM it will be much easier to respond to your question. Anyway we will put up some video demos so you get an idea how it works.

Responding to "to the genesys": no PHD in rocketscience required. That would be quite suicidal from a marketing point of view.
Being open source, updateable via internet, providing big horsepower does not imply that this "luxury car" must be hard to drive.
Of course if you are a developer you can tweak any aspect of the system and if you want you can share (or even sell) your customizations or additional modules you write.
As for documentation, a basic manual will be there but since it is an ever evolving system paper risks aging quite fast. That's why we opted for online help (builtin in the keyboard, plus the docs will be on the web too so that non owners can take a peek to it too).
The online help is not static. It is interactive. Think of it like browsing webpages but with builtin pratical tutorial.

Let's take an example: I'm a newbie and want to learn how to use the MIDI/mp3 player.
Click on help->midi/mp3 player. read the short introduction, then click on tutorial and the Mediastation will automagically navigate the file menu, load an example .MID or MP3 file, start the playing, fiddle on the controls (on screen volume sliders) press pause, FFWD etc.
With this method you save hours of digging in the manual which greatly increases your initial productivity.
Not only will the Mediastation come with these tutorials, you can create your own one by simply pressing RECORD and then start using the the keyboard. When you are finished press FINISH and the tutorial is done. Afterwards you can even edit it (time stamped events) if you need to.
Such tutorials can be shared (via email) with other musicians or if you want you can even put them on a website and make them available for downloading or sell them.

Session management works the same way.
Need the midi player loaded with a certain MIDI file, track 1-5 muted, the style player set to Samba, the transpose of the keyboard set to -4 the sound on the keyboard set to Grand Piano program 1/variation 64 etc ?
The first time do all these things manually and then save the session to a file.
You can save an unlimited amount of sessions and recall them with a keystroke or out of a file selection. (cursor up/down for navigation, enter to select and load the session).

Does that sound like stuff for rocket science engineers ? :-)

Playing by the numbers does not make sense these days, dishonest practices are quickly uncovered thanks to broadly accessible mediums like the Internet.

PS: rumors are circulating that audio demos will be available in a few days, I'll keep you guys posted :-)

cheers,
Benno


[This message has been edited by sbenno (edited 11-12-2003).]

reduz,
I have nothing against linux... I use it in my company, both as a developer (Kylix)
and as a user (our firewall, as an example, runs on Mandrake linux).

The problem is not related to linux, but to the approach that comes out from
liontracs people messages. One of them said that:
"Our goal is to make all the software that powers the Mediastation open source
so that users can customize it, improve it fix eventual bugs etc."
and this assertion clearly leads to my point about users not being programmers.
Add to this my deep doubts about making all the software open source... I think that
company management has something to say about this...


Then, a couple of your replies have no sense at all.
You say that every product has its lifetime. So what? I think that you ignore
(or undervaluate) how hard can be the process of customizing an operating system,
and how much harder can be the process of continuing someone's else work.
So, liontracs mission (producing a software-only musical instruments) is very hard,
because they have to fight against big, worldwide music companies (Yamaha, Korg and
Roland, just to name three of them), and against other companies with the same idea
(eKo), and against people scared from their approach, and against people who thinks
that 5000 (+ taxes) are too much ....
Then, another problem: just suppose that the board comes to reality... you can have
the best product in the whole world, but you won't sell a single piece without good
advertising...
And, finally, the customer-care problem.
So, while I wish liontracs all the best, I should carefully evaluate pros and cons.

BTW, when you say that with liontracs you can "...have a sampler of the quality of
giga or halion, or software synthesizers of the quality of reaktor, fm7 or DAWs at
the level of protools all running together in the same machine", you forget to mention
how much money we need to buy all those programs.


Finally, I hate when someone start publishing its product saying that it is good
because it uses Linux, and the other is bad because of Microsoft.
I know where I come from: I experienced many PC operating systems, both as a user
and as a programmer: DOS, Concurrent Dos, MOS, GEM, Novell, OS/2, PCos, BOSS, Linux,
Windows... and APPLE, from the IIE model to first Mac, passing thru Lisa ...

All have their pros and cons, related to their age, of course.

But I builded a company and earn a life for me and eight more people employed in my
company (not to talk about our families) thanks to Microsoft operating systems,
languages and products. As an example, no other OS is able to run last generation
windows applications side by side with a 20 years old MS-DOS application.

I've seen the raise of Novell NetWare operating system.
My company builded one of the biggest (for that time) WAN of Europe when more than 80
banks have been linked to a big IBM S36 thru almost 100 Novell Netware servers.
Then, I've seen the fall of NetWare when Microsoft started networking with NT.

I've seen the start of Novell-IBM-Apple software component model (CORBA) and its fall
because of Microsoft's COM (surely worst and buggy, but it runs; not to talk about
the hundreths of COM object commercially available)

I've seen the start of IBM OS/2, who never raised because of windows NT

So, if you like linux because of linux, then good, no problem. As already said, linux
is surely better for certain tasks. But, please, giev to Bill Gates the credits he gained.

Regards

Ric

Originally posted by RicFreak:


I believe that you dont understand the context of that. First of all
I dont think this is implying specifically
for the user to do this, but it may very well be either options, features or services given by Lionstracs, or just the ability for a sound engineer to tweak it.. because
being realistic, most pro musicans always work with sound engineers.



Oh come on, what world do you live in? do you have a minimal idea of how many companies sell hardware using open source software for their products? from servers, networking devices, pdas, cellphones, cars, etc.
This is nothing new.




Well, it's just linux, and they made the intention clear that they will support standard apis and applications, so i dont see where the problem is. If I wish to go on and install some app on it I can, thats why it is a workstation for, and why it uses a standard cpu/architecture, dont you think?




As far as i can understand, it's a music workstation, which can run a lot of existing applications through a specialized hardware,
i dont see it being the same thing. But
you are just getting into the marketing stuff here, which doesnt seem like any of us really know much about.




Definitely, you are right. Those programs cost a lot. So it is actually an enormous advantage that the opensource alternatives cost nothing.




oooh come on!! go to any roland, yamaha, wathever synth page and you will see all around "powered by xx, yy technology"
It's just marketing!! Linux is just the underlying OS as it is the underlying OS
of a lot more devices, the user should be able to ignore what Linux is and still use
the device and all its features. And as a plus,for those sound engineers with knowledge on it, they will probably make a lot more juice out if it.



Ok, this is off-topic but deserves an answer. First of all, you should thank intel for that, not microsoft. Second, you dont really seem to know what an emulator is, and you can easily run legacy apps in windows or any other OS or platform using them.



Nobody says here that they like linux because of being linux. And nobody here said that Bill Gates doesnt deserve credit. That seems to be some idea you have about people which i dont believe it is appropiate here.


regards

Juan Linietsky

Hi,

I'll be forthright and tell you that I work for Lionstracs and have a vested interest. Thank you for taking time to be the devil's advocate. Left to their own resources, most aspiring businesses are destined to mediocrity and failure. Lionstracs is no exception. Facing the devil's wrath here and now with your help is essential to avoiding the unemployment line. Your concerns are more important to Lionstracs than any ignorant beliefs or feelings that may blindly steer us into bankruptcy.

Rick said, "The problem is not related to linux, but to the approach that comes out from liontracs people's messages. One of them said that: "Our goal is to make all the software that powers the Mediastation open source so that users can customize it, improve it fix eventual bugs etc." and this assertion clearly leads to my point about users not being programmers."

Users aren't programmers but for manufacturers to insulate engineers from user feedback and participation in product development is assinine. It defies common sense. The Linux development model has taught us that the user's insights and feelings are critical to product development. The reason Linux is successful is because the license for usage defines and protects our right to share intellectual ideas. This freedom enables us to avoid the "meet the new boss, same as the old boss" trap that relegates users to a position of being second rate citizens.

Each of us at Lionstracs is one of or a combination of hardware/software engineer, technical writer, business manager, musician/song writer, audio engineer and producer. I own a recording studio. My studio business partners and I have made our livings in that business since 1983. I am confidant in speaking for my Lionstracs and studio partners when I say, all of us share an intolerance for the proprietary business model which ignores us.

Producing user friendly solutions begins and ends with respecting the user.

But don't think we would bet the farm on a philosophy if the result of its methods didn't produce superior product. IBM is investing millions into Linux. Yamaha music, IBM, Sony and Panasonic have all invested into Linux R&D Monta Vista (www.mvista.com/news/2002/yamaha.html). Yamaha music has 57 bases in 20 different countries. Chase Manahattan Banks run their critical Wall Street operations on Linux servers. Examples of this trend are too numerous to list. The penetration of Linux into the server, business and desktop markets is an old story. The chapter Lionstracs gets to help write concerns Linux in the media production realm.

Rick said, "Add to this my deep doubts about making all the software open source... I think that company management has something to say about this..."

Those of us you're debating with are Lionstracs company management. So, you're getting it straight from the horses mouth.

Rick said, "Then, a couple of your replies have no sense at all. You say that every product has its lifetime. So what? I think that you ignore (or undervaluate) how hard can be the process of customizing an operating system, and how much harder can be the process of continuing someone's else work. So, liontracs mission (producing a software-only musical instruments) is very hard, because they have to fight against big, worldwide music companies (Yamaha, Korg and Roland, just to name three of them), and against other companies with the same idea (eKo), and against people scared from their approach, and against people who thinks that 5000 (+ taxes) are too much .... Then, another problem: just suppose that the board comes to reality... you can have the best product in the whole world, but you won't sell a single piece without good advertising..."

There are many reasons for dreams to become nightmares. So what! If you're an artistic painter, I'd suggest you give it up because the Mona Lisa has already been produced. Sorry, I can't resist a little indignance. At any rate, I'll try to give a reasonable response to your legitimate concern.

Consider Apple purchasing Emagic and announcing that Logic will no longer be available for Windows. That certainly has imposed a feeling of helplessness upon a large group of people. To be treated as a pawn causes me to become resentful. Lets consider an application that will be included in the Mediastation, Jack Audio Connection Kit (JACK, jackit.sourceforge.net). JACK is a low latency audio server. It automatically detects hardware ports and user defined application level soft ports. It also automatically detects all jack_transport capable clients. Any client in the graph can initiate transport commands. How's that for user friendly?

JACK is the result of public discussions between software engineers and end users.

You and 2000+ other subscribers to the Linux Audio Developer mailing list receive the source code for JACK and a legally binding license that protects everyone's right to modify and distribute JACK, and your modifications within the rules defined by the license. No organization has the opportunity to treat JACK developers and users as pawns in their games.

Incidentally, there has been an offer from one major manufacturer that wants to license the Mediastation. Domenico has politely declined. We have a major distributer from the U.S. that covers all of North and South America. We're in negotiations for a distribution contract. They are bringing us to the January NAMM show. These are indications for a bright future but we understand that the challenge has just begun.

Rick said, "And, finally, the customer-care problem. So, while I wish liontracs all the best, I should carefully evaluate pros and cons. BTW, when you say that with liontracs you can "...have a sampler of the quality of giga or halion, or software synthesizers of the quality of reaktor, fm7 or DAWs at the level of protools all running together in the same machine", you forget to mention how much money we need to buy all those programs."

The software in its current state and all future upgrades are free of monetary costs. There are one or two in-house applications for which we're hesitant to release the source code. We're afraid it could compromise our opportunity to establish marketshare. After we feel that the Mediastation is establsihed, it'll be a sound business move to release that code. Otherwise, to the best of my knowledge, all the applications are GPL and publicly available. Incidentally, Lionstracs is making financial contributions to engineers that have written open source licensed applications that we need. If any of the apps you're developing on Mandrake are music related, let us know. We might be interested in funding your work.

I suspect any firmware for Lionstracs in-house DSP cards would not be released because we're not in the business of selling components. Consequently it serves no purpose to release hardware drivers. However, our future business plan includes the possibility to encourage and support third party hardware and software manufacturer products. Any support that's required will be available.

Rick said, "Finally, I hate when someone start publishing its product saying that it is good because it uses Linux, and the other is bad because of Microsoft. I know where I come from: I experienced many PC operating systems, both as a user and as a programmer: DOS, Concurrent Dos, MOS, GEM, Novell, OS/2, PCos, BOSS, Linux, Windows... and APPLE, from the IIE model to first Mac, passing thru Lisa ..."

Speaking for myself and not Lionstracs, I couldn't care less about Microsoft, Apple, Linux or any other OS. My concern is the license that defines our freedom! The reasons Yamaha Music is switching to Linux are all a result of the GPL license and the product development model that it makes possible. Anyone that doesn't understand intellectual freedom in the engineering paradigm can't appreciate how development and business models can be changed to produce technically superior products, sound business investments, and a healthy user community.

I have nothing to say about Bill Gates and consequently can never be the object of your stated hatred. My boss is the new boss, not the same as the old boss. My boss is freedom. Anything else is irrelevant to me. If you have a Microsoft centric business model that's working, more power to you. If your product is music instruments, then please do NOT switch to GPL products. Lionstracs doesn't need to add you to the list of competitors.

Ron Parker
Lionstracs U.S. General Manager and Marketing

Rick said, "All have their pros and cons, related to their age, of course. But I builded a company and earn a life for me and eight more people employed in my company (not to talk about our families) thanks to Microsoft operating systems, languages and products. As an example, no other OS is able to run last generation windows applications side by side with a 20 years old MS-DOS application. I've seen the raise of Novell NetWare operating system. My company builded one of the biggest (for that time) WAN of Europe when more than 80 banks have been linked to a big IBM S36 thru almost 100 Novell Netware servers. Then, I've seen the fall of NetWare when Microsoft started networking with NT. I've seen the start of Novell-IBM-Apple software component model (CORBA) and its fall because of Microsoft's COM (surely worst and buggy, but it runs; not to talk about the hundreths of COM object commercially available) I've seen the start of IBM OS/2, who never raised because of windows NT So, if you like linux because of linux, then good, no problem. As already said, linux is surely better for certain tasks. But, please, giev to Bill Gates the credits he gained."
Regards

Ric

Guys, guys, guys,
Can we get back to business which is arranger keyboards.
Ron: we're waiting for some demo's, video's, and hard facts. When, oh when will they be available?
Are you planning any scaled down versions, even a aranger module?
I understand the (traditional) need to enter the high-end market, but I feel that you will be copied with less feature rich and certainly less expensive far-east stuff before you know it;
Unless...you enter the mid market yourselves. Have the mid market version produced in China. They love Linux too!
Just a thaught.

Ron,
I have to clarify a little my thoughts, so to avoid any misunderstanding.

1) My past replies are reactions to a "it-is-all-so-easy" feeling that comes out from liontracs people message. I simply will like to say to people reading: "watch out, it is yellow and it shines, but we don't know if it is gold or brass". Then I have my personal point of view about PC operating systems, so I probably have told too much. Sorry if I bored or flamed someone.

2) I am absolutely happy about this liontracs project, and I really whish them all the best. They say that they will publish their software in open source. Well, that's great... I am figthing a 2 years long battle with korg, for having more informations about their Pa80 arranger and its software, without any result. So I, for sure, can appreciate liontracs approach.

3) I think that price is too high, and this can be an obstacle. Maybe you can think about a low-end version, with less features and lower quality components...

4) Your boss is freedom... you, lucky guy! Mine are both the market and my customers.

Regards
Riccardo

[This message has been edited by RicFreak (edited 11-14-2003).]

Hi RicFreak,

You know what, my hat is off to you. You're running a business where eight people make a living. I assume it's a good living too because it sounds like some of them have families.

With alot of hard work, Lionstracs will get to make the same claim that you're already able to make. I'm confidant that we're gonna do it but it remains to be done.

Great job!

Ron

Ron,
my english knowledge is poor, so I cannot understand if your reply is ironic or not.

So, in both cases, my apologies for not being smart enough to understand your message.

Regards
Ric

[This message has been edited by RicFreak (edited 11-14-2003).]

Juan,
we have different points of view about almost every point in my and your messages.

My thoughts come from my experience, and, probably, it has been different from yours.

Just to make an example, my experiences with emulators have very often been bad, but, of course, this can be my fault.

Anyway, I apologies if I've ever been rude in my assertions: it wasn't my intention. I simply tried to explain my point of view.

That's all (on my side)

Regards
Ric

Hi Guys
My sound engineer Enrico had posted the first sound demo. now about every days he will upload new sound/styles.
http://www.lionstracs.com

Cheers
Domenik

dominek,
Well, I am interested in one of these toys......so that being said, I have to say that I think the sounds on the demos from the Tyros and the one's that JJ just posted from his new PA1X, both sound better than these demos to my ears. Most especially the guitars.

The strings sounded full, almost too full. I did not like the saxes much at all, but the brass backing them up was ok.

The styles, I don't feel are as good as the other 2 mentioned boards either.

I'm not saying the Lion is junk, I just think the others sound better from the demos, to my ears.

Are these the onboard sounds and styles that come with the Lion?
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html