reduz,
I have nothing against linux... I use it in my company, both as a developer (Kylix)
and as a user (our firewall, as an example, runs on Mandrake linux).

The problem is not related to linux, but to the approach that comes out from
liontracs people messages. One of them said that:
"Our goal is to make all the software that powers the Mediastation open source
so that users can customize it, improve it fix eventual bugs etc."
and this assertion clearly leads to my point about users not being programmers.
Add to this my deep doubts about making all the software open source... I think that
company management has something to say about this...


Then, a couple of your replies have no sense at all.
You say that every product has its lifetime. So what? I think that you ignore
(or undervaluate) how hard can be the process of customizing an operating system,
and how much harder can be the process of continuing someone's else work.
So, liontracs mission (producing a software-only musical instruments) is very hard,
because they have to fight against big, worldwide music companies (Yamaha, Korg and
Roland, just to name three of them), and against other companies with the same idea
(eKo), and against people scared from their approach, and against people who thinks
that 5000 (+ taxes) are too much ....
Then, another problem: just suppose that the board comes to reality... you can have
the best product in the whole world, but you won't sell a single piece without good
advertising...
And, finally, the customer-care problem.
So, while I wish liontracs all the best, I should carefully evaluate pros and cons.

BTW, when you say that with liontracs you can "...have a sampler of the quality of
giga or halion, or software synthesizers of the quality of reaktor, fm7 or DAWs at
the level of protools all running together in the same machine", you forget to mention
how much money we need to buy all those programs.


Finally, I hate when someone start publishing its product saying that it is good
because it uses Linux, and the other is bad because of Microsoft.
I know where I come from: I experienced many PC operating systems, both as a user
and as a programmer: DOS, Concurrent Dos, MOS, GEM, Novell, OS/2, PCos, BOSS, Linux,
Windows... and APPLE, from the IIE model to first Mac, passing thru Lisa ...

All have their pros and cons, related to their age, of course.

But I builded a company and earn a life for me and eight more people employed in my
company (not to talk about our families) thanks to Microsoft operating systems,
languages and products. As an example, no other OS is able to run last generation
windows applications side by side with a 20 years old MS-DOS application.

I've seen the raise of Novell NetWare operating system.
My company builded one of the biggest (for that time) WAN of Europe when more than 80
banks have been linked to a big IBM S36 thru almost 100 Novell Netware servers.
Then, I've seen the fall of NetWare when Microsoft started networking with NT.

I've seen the start of Novell-IBM-Apple software component model (CORBA) and its fall
because of Microsoft's COM (surely worst and buggy, but it runs; not to talk about
the hundreths of COM object commercially available)

I've seen the start of IBM OS/2, who never raised because of windows NT

So, if you like linux because of linux, then good, no problem. As already said, linux
is surely better for certain tasks. But, please, giev to Bill Gates the credits he gained.

Regards

Ric

Originally posted by RicFreak:


I believe that you dont understand the context of that. First of all
I dont think this is implying specifically
for the user to do this, but it may very well be either options, features or services given by Lionstracs, or just the ability for a sound engineer to tweak it.. because
being realistic, most pro musicans always work with sound engineers.



Oh come on, what world do you live in? do you have a minimal idea of how many companies sell hardware using open source software for their products? from servers, networking devices, pdas, cellphones, cars, etc.
This is nothing new.




Well, it's just linux, and they made the intention clear that they will support standard apis and applications, so i dont see where the problem is. If I wish to go on and install some app on it I can, thats why it is a workstation for, and why it uses a standard cpu/architecture, dont you think?




As far as i can understand, it's a music workstation, which can run a lot of existing applications through a specialized hardware,
i dont see it being the same thing. But
you are just getting into the marketing stuff here, which doesnt seem like any of us really know much about.




Definitely, you are right. Those programs cost a lot. So it is actually an enormous advantage that the opensource alternatives cost nothing.




oooh come on!! go to any roland, yamaha, wathever synth page and you will see all around "powered by xx, yy technology"
It's just marketing!! Linux is just the underlying OS as it is the underlying OS
of a lot more devices, the user should be able to ignore what Linux is and still use
the device and all its features. And as a plus,for those sound engineers with knowledge on it, they will probably make a lot more juice out if it.



Ok, this is off-topic but deserves an answer. First of all, you should thank intel for that, not microsoft. Second, you dont really seem to know what an emulator is, and you can easily run legacy apps in windows or any other OS or platform using them.



Nobody says here that they like linux because of being linux. And nobody here said that Bill Gates doesnt deserve credit. That seems to be some idea you have about people which i dont believe it is appropiate here.


regards

Juan Linietsky

Hi,

I'll be forthright and tell you that I work for Lionstracs and have a vested interest. Thank you for taking time to be the devil's advocate. Left to their own resources, most aspiring businesses are destined to mediocrity and failure. Lionstracs is no exception. Facing the devil's wrath here and now with your help is essential to avoiding the unemployment line. Your concerns are more important to Lionstracs than any ignorant beliefs or feelings that may blindly steer us into bankruptcy.

Rick said, "The problem is not related to linux, but to the approach that comes out from liontracs people's messages. One of them said that: "Our goal is to make all the software that powers the Mediastation open source so that users can customize it, improve it fix eventual bugs etc." and this assertion clearly leads to my point about users not being programmers."

Users aren't programmers but for manufacturers to insulate engineers from user feedback and participation in product development is assinine. It defies common sense. The Linux development model has taught us that the user's insights and feelings are critical to product development. The reason Linux is successful is because the license for usage defines and protects our right to share intellectual ideas. This freedom enables us to avoid the "meet the new boss, same as the old boss" trap that relegates users to a position of being second rate citizens.

Each of us at Lionstracs is one of or a combination of hardware/software engineer, technical writer, business manager, musician/song writer, audio engineer and producer. I own a recording studio. My studio business partners and I have made our livings in that business since 1983. I am confidant in speaking for my Lionstracs and studio partners when I say, all of us share an intolerance for the proprietary business model which ignores us.

Producing user friendly solutions begins and ends with respecting the user.

But don't think we would bet the farm on a philosophy if the result of its methods didn't produce superior product. IBM is investing millions into Linux. Yamaha music, IBM, Sony and Panasonic have all invested into Linux R&D Monta Vista (www.mvista.com/news/2002/yamaha.html). Yamaha music has 57 bases in 20 different countries. Chase Manahattan Banks run their critical Wall Street operations on Linux servers. Examples of this trend are too numerous to list. The penetration of Linux into the server, business and desktop markets is an old story. The chapter Lionstracs gets to help write concerns Linux in the media production realm.

Rick said, "Add to this my deep doubts about making all the software open source... I think that company management has something to say about this..."

Those of us you're debating with are Lionstracs company management. So, you're getting it straight from the horses mouth.

Rick said, "Then, a couple of your replies have no sense at all. You say that every product has its lifetime. So what? I think that you ignore (or undervaluate) how hard can be the process of customizing an operating system, and how much harder can be the process of continuing someone's else work. So, liontracs mission (producing a software-only musical instruments) is very hard, because they have to fight against big, worldwide music companies (Yamaha, Korg and Roland, just to name three of them), and against other companies with the same idea (eKo), and against people scared from their approach, and against people who thinks that 5000 (+ taxes) are too much .... Then, another problem: just suppose that the board comes to reality... you can have the best product in the whole world, but you won't sell a single piece without good advertising..."

There are many reasons for dreams to become nightmares. So what! If you're an artistic painter, I'd suggest you give it up because the Mona Lisa has already been produced. Sorry, I can't resist a little indignance. At any rate, I'll try to give a reasonable response to your legitimate concern.

Consider Apple purchasing Emagic and announcing that Logic will no longer be available for Windows. That certainly has imposed a feeling of helplessness upon a large group of people. To be treated as a pawn causes me to become resentful. Lets consider an application that will be included in the Mediastation, Jack Audio Connection Kit (JACK, jackit.sourceforge.net). JACK is a low latency audio server. It automatically detects hardware ports and user defined application level soft ports. It also automatically detects all jack_transport capable clients. Any client in the graph can initiate transport commands. How's that for user friendly?

JACK is the result of public discussions between software engineers and end users.

You and 2000+ other subscribers to the Linux Audio Developer mailing list receive the source code for JACK and a legally binding license that protects everyone's right to modify and distribute JACK, and your modifications within the rules defined by the license. No organization has the opportunity to treat JACK developers and users as pawns in their games.

Incidentally, there has been an offer from one major manufacturer that wants to license the Mediastation. Domenico has politely declined. We have a major distributer from the U.S. that covers all of North and South America. We're in negotiations for a distribution contract. They are bringing us to the January NAMM show. These are indications for a bright future but we understand that the challenge has just begun.

Rick said, "And, finally, the customer-care problem. So, while I wish liontracs all the best, I should carefully evaluate pros and cons. BTW, when you say that with liontracs you can "...have a sampler of the quality of giga or halion, or software synthesizers of the quality of reaktor, fm7 or DAWs at the level of protools all running together in the same machine", you forget to mention how much money we need to buy all those programs."

The software in its current state and all future upgrades are free of monetary costs. There are one or two in-house applications for which we're hesitant to release the source code. We're afraid it could compromise our opportunity to establish marketshare. After we feel that the Mediastation is establsihed, it'll be a sound business move to release that code. Otherwise, to the best of my knowledge, all the applications are GPL and publicly available. Incidentally, Lionstracs is making financial contributions to engineers that have written open source licensed applications that we need. If any of the apps you're developing on Mandrake are music related, let us know. We might be interested in funding your work.

I suspect any firmware for Lionstracs in-house DSP cards would not be released because we're not in the business of selling components. Consequently it serves no purpose to release hardware drivers. However, our future business plan includes the possibility to encourage and support third party hardware and software manufacturer products. Any support that's required will be available.

Rick said, "Finally, I hate when someone start publishing its product saying that it is good because it uses Linux, and the other is bad because of Microsoft. I know where I come from: I experienced many PC operating systems, both as a user and as a programmer: DOS, Concurrent Dos, MOS, GEM, Novell, OS/2, PCos, BOSS, Linux, Windows... and APPLE, from the IIE model to first Mac, passing thru Lisa ..."

Speaking for myself and not Lionstracs, I couldn't care less about Microsoft, Apple, Linux or any other OS. My concern is the license that defines our freedom! The reasons Yamaha Music is switching to Linux are all a result of the GPL license and the product development model that it makes possible. Anyone that doesn't understand intellectual freedom in the engineering paradigm can't appreciate how development and business models can be changed to produce technically superior products, sound business investments, and a healthy user community.

I have nothing to say about Bill Gates and consequently can never be the object of your stated hatred. My boss is the new boss, not the same as the old boss. My boss is freedom. Anything else is irrelevant to me. If you have a Microsoft centric business model that's working, more power to you. If your product is music instruments, then please do NOT switch to GPL products. Lionstracs doesn't need to add you to the list of competitors.

Ron Parker
Lionstracs U.S. General Manager and Marketing

Rick said, "All have their pros and cons, related to their age, of course. But I builded a company and earn a life for me and eight more people employed in my company (not to talk about our families) thanks to Microsoft operating systems, languages and products. As an example, no other OS is able to run last generation windows applications side by side with a 20 years old MS-DOS application. I've seen the raise of Novell NetWare operating system. My company builded one of the biggest (for that time) WAN of Europe when more than 80 banks have been linked to a big IBM S36 thru almost 100 Novell Netware servers. Then, I've seen the fall of NetWare when Microsoft started networking with NT. I've seen the start of Novell-IBM-Apple software component model (CORBA) and its fall because of Microsoft's COM (surely worst and buggy, but it runs; not to talk about the hundreths of COM object commercially available) I've seen the start of IBM OS/2, who never raised because of windows NT So, if you like linux because of linux, then good, no problem. As already said, linux is surely better for certain tasks. But, please, giev to Bill Gates the credits he gained."
Regards

Ric

Guys, guys, guys,
Can we get back to business which is arranger keyboards.
Ron: we're waiting for some demo's, video's, and hard facts. When, oh when will they be available?
Are you planning any scaled down versions, even a aranger module?
I understand the (traditional) need to enter the high-end market, but I feel that you will be copied with less feature rich and certainly less expensive far-east stuff before you know it;
Unless...you enter the mid market yourselves. Have the mid market version produced in China. They love Linux too!
Just a thaught.

Ron,
I have to clarify a little my thoughts, so to avoid any misunderstanding.

1) My past replies are reactions to a "it-is-all-so-easy" feeling that comes out from liontracs people message. I simply will like to say to people reading: "watch out, it is yellow and it shines, but we don't know if it is gold or brass". Then I have my personal point of view about PC operating systems, so I probably have told too much. Sorry if I bored or flamed someone.

2) I am absolutely happy about this liontracs project, and I really whish them all the best. They say that they will publish their software in open source. Well, that's great... I am figthing a 2 years long battle with korg, for having more informations about their Pa80 arranger and its software, without any result. So I, for sure, can appreciate liontracs approach.

3) I think that price is too high, and this can be an obstacle. Maybe you can think about a low-end version, with less features and lower quality components...

4) Your boss is freedom... you, lucky guy! Mine are both the market and my customers.

Regards
Riccardo

[This message has been edited by RicFreak (edited 11-14-2003).]

Hi RicFreak,

You know what, my hat is off to you. You're running a business where eight people make a living. I assume it's a good living too because it sounds like some of them have families.

With alot of hard work, Lionstracs will get to make the same claim that you're already able to make. I'm confidant that we're gonna do it but it remains to be done.

Great job!

Ron

Ron,
my english knowledge is poor, so I cannot understand if your reply is ironic or not.

So, in both cases, my apologies for not being smart enough to understand your message.

Regards
Ric

[This message has been edited by RicFreak (edited 11-14-2003).]

Juan,
we have different points of view about almost every point in my and your messages.

My thoughts come from my experience, and, probably, it has been different from yours.

Just to make an example, my experiences with emulators have very often been bad, but, of course, this can be my fault.

Anyway, I apologies if I've ever been rude in my assertions: it wasn't my intention. I simply tried to explain my point of view.

That's all (on my side)

Regards
Ric

Hi Guys
My sound engineer Enrico had posted the first sound demo. now about every days he will upload new sound/styles.
http://www.lionstracs.com

Cheers
Domenik

dominek,
Well, I am interested in one of these toys......so that being said, I have to say that I think the sounds on the demos from the Tyros and the one's that JJ just posted from his new PA1X, both sound better than these demos to my ears. Most especially the guitars.

The strings sounded full, almost too full. I did not like the saxes much at all, but the brass backing them up was ok.

The styles, I don't feel are as good as the other 2 mentioned boards either.

I'm not saying the Lion is junk, I just think the others sound better from the demos, to my ears.

Are these the onboard sounds and styles that come with the Lion?
Terry

------------------
jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html