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#183198 - 10/02/03 05:27 PM Re: LIONSTRACS MEDIASTATION X-76...what you think?
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Sounds great. Keep working on it and keep us informed.
DonM
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DonM

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#183199 - 10/02/03 05:45 PM Re: LIONSTRACS MEDIASTATION X-76...what you think?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ok friends, this is sure.

Anyway, for your know...we a little hatte when people compare us like the Openlabs Eko...
Eko is ONLY a PC Windows XP installed in one keyboard case, M-Adio card and some USB controllers. Always you must use the touch pad mouse for play over it and they dont have developed nothing like hardware, just installed a PC in a new case, with ALL problems that windows offer...( just read some old topics here.... people know that)
mediastation is 2 years of project, we use only the ATX board like engine, but inside give 9 new PCB boards, 172 silicon key's with 2 color led for multifunctions, 640X480 LCD, + external monitor up to 1280X1024 + TV out, ALL 3 VGA INDIPENDENT and of couse, Linux.
All what can offer Linux, we can give you.
In the keyboard are deleted all the games and stupid stuff, only application for the musician, internet included.
mediastation is the first keyboard that can download by internet FREE the last software release available, just by pressing the key: HELP and the Upgrade.
Think about....

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#183200 - 10/02/03 08:44 PM Re: LIONSTRACS MEDIASTATION X-76...what you think?
Clif Anderson Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/00
Posts: 532
So how would you compare the MediaStation with the Wersi Abacus? What about price? What about weight?

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#183201 - 10/03/03 02:22 AM Re: LIONSTRACS MEDIASTATION X-76...what you think?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Clif Anderson:
So how would you compare the MediaStation with the Wersi Abacus? What about price? What about weight?


Well, the Wersi is more interesting like the Eko, they have a lot of years of esperience, but still they use Windows and one PC sound card.
The difference from Windows and Linux is that Windows dont give the possibility to open the code and fix the bugs. They have installed the Cubase sequencer and all the function are recalled ONLY by touch screen by pointer, like a mouse. When you play live, try to find a midifile, or change the sound or open a CD's.... all this function by touch screen mouse?? And when you have time for playing?
Anyway Wersi make a wonderfull case but are products for stay at home and not for stage.
price of wersi start from $5000 to the big model $ 49.950....
Mediastation X-76 cost about $6000 and the wight is about 27Kg. Only the 76 long key's wieghted pro are 10Kg.

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#183202 - 10/03/03 02:24 AM Re: LIONSTRACS MEDIASTATION X-76...what you think?
Anonymous
Unregistered



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#183203 - 10/03/03 04:55 AM Re: LIONSTRACS MEDIASTATION X-76...what you think?
sbenno Offline
Member

Registered: 10/03/03
Posts: 35
Ok could not resist not to partecipate to the discussion ;-)

some clarifications: I'm not the BOSS of the linux audio developers. There is no boss there, the LAD (Linux audio developers) is a group of people that meet around a mailing list (linux-audio-dev) and organize real-life meetings and workshops too, a few times a year (check out www.linuxaudiodev.org, Events section).

Regarding the mediastation: is it really and innvoative concept since it combines the ease of use of a traditional keyboard with the flexibility of PC hardware and the Linux operating system, an industrial strenght unix-like OS that powers many of the datacenters of Wallstreet's investment banks (Merrill Lynch), animation studios (Dream Works), and other countless sectors where extremely high reliability is required.

So if Linux is good enough for Banks, is it reliable enough for making music ?
Definitively !

Keyboards with Windows XP in it may be nice because their eyecandy GUIs etc, but seriously I would not risk to play live with a device that is Windows based.

Plus from the vendor's point of view by chosing Windows you are dependent from Microsoft for both upgrades, bugfixes and as a keyboard maker, should you have special needs, Bill Gates will just ignore you because you only sell units in the 100's (or 1000's) range and they will not change or improve the OS only to suit your needs since it will economically not pay off for Microsoft.

Not to mention that Microsoft's goal is to make you pay for the usage of their software not for the purchasing.
This probably means that in future you need to pay a yearly fee in order to continue to use your Windows OS. Would this acceptable for a keyboard vendor/user ? I don't think so.

I admit many cool software synths/samplers and sequencers are available on Windows.
This means for example the openlabs Eko can use any of them but this approach has several problems:
- not well integrated with the keyboard.
The keyboarder want to press 1-2 keys at max and have their sounds/players/styles etc loaded. Fiddling around with a windows desktop on the live stage is silly (and as domenik said, you will end up spending more time clicking around on your desktop than playing music).
- windows is nor designed for real time (audio is a real time application), nor has it proven to be stable enough, despite Microsoft's claims that Windows XP eliminated all stability problems of previous windows versions.

Why did we choose Linux ?
It allows us to stay competitive in both technical and economic terms.
We can customize every aspect of it, optimize it and tune it so that is performs just like a dedicated keyboard OS but with the power of a general purpose OS.

The Mediastation has its own powerful DREAM MIDI synthesis chips but since the keyboard will come with a 2GHz CPU you can run software synthesis and sampling too.

The plus of the Mediastation will be that you will be able to get new features and capabilities by simply hooking it up to the internet and pressing the UPDATE button.
For example for the next months we are preparing a really powerful sampling engine that will be able to stream multi-gigabyte samples directly from disk and even able to import formats like the .GIG where serveral extremely high quality sample libraries are available.
And all software updates will come for free for a lifetime, with lifetime online support through forums, chat etc. Can other keyboard makers claim the same ?

Our goal is to make all the software that powers the Mediastation open source so that users can customize it, improve it fix eventual bugs etc.
This means your hardware investment will never be obsoleted not even in the case that Lionstracs goes out of business (hopefully not ;-) ).

The the same open source development model that turned Linux into the fastest growing OSes with entire nations switching to it (see China, Southcorea articles on slashdot.org) and that is now one of the biggest threats to Microsoft (Stevel Ballmer, Microsoft's CEO said that), can be applied to the Keyboards market too and will probably shake up the entire industry.
The big vendors probably cannot afford to risk this move because this is an uncharted territory and most of the bigs lack technical knowledge in the Linux audio field because they sticked to their proprietary hardware designs (only recently Yamaha invested in Montavista, an embedded Linux company, but I guess it will take quite some time until they release a Linux based keyboard plus it will probably be closed using proprietary APIs).

The Mediastation is a big bet and as any new "invention" it carries some risk but we think the time is right because several factors are playing well together like linux being very stable, linux audio/midi programming interfaces mature (ALSA), PC hardware being powerful and cost-efficient, excellent hardware design of the mediastation (button controllers, internal mixer circuit boards, dream MIDI synthesis etc).

The mediastation's buttons are not hardwired to the various functions since all the handling is done in software. This means that user could customize the keyboard's functionality to suit his neeeds, add new modules, or let thirdparties to implement new functionality, either for a fee or for free.

VST: many of you would probably want to run VST plugins on such a PC based keyboard.
Well as you know we do not run Windows because all the disadvantages mentioned above.
BUT .... thanks to emulation technology it is possible to run VST plugins in a Linux enviroment. The emulation technology is still not perfect (mainly due to GUI issues) but there are already reports of a growing number of plugins that run perfectly under Linux.
(the DSP performance of VST plugins under Linux is the same as under Windows since the VST .DLLs are called directly like native linux DLLs and the plugins does not know that it does not run under Windows).

So we have two ways for VST: wait for the VST emulation technology improving.
Or provide an easy to use VST porting framework so that VST developers can take the source of VST plugins and recompile it under Linux.
The possibilities are endless and we will make sure that the Mediastation will be open as possible.
And all this added functionality will be available with the simple pressing of the UPDATE button.

The nice thing is that if you buy the Mediastation today you will get the same functionality as the person that will buy it in a year because the software update system always syncs up to the current relase.

Want more power ? Did you know contrary to Windows, Linux is already fully optimized and cabable to run on 64-bit CPUs ?
As soond as the AMD64 Opteron mainboards will be reasonably cheap (I guess a few months) we will build the Mediastation 64-bit model, where you probably can measure the number of voices in the thousands range ;-)

As you see, the Mediastation will never be obsoleted and it is not a simple "PC in a keyboard case". I would say it is a new trendsetter, a device that will give unlimited power to musicians without sacrificing ease of use.

Some sceptics still not convinced that Linux is not good to do real time audio ?

See these benchmark diagrams that I made with my latencytest tool, a tool that puts the machine under an extreme load (writing large files running CPU hungry tasks, stessing the video card etc) and measures the minimum audio latency you can achieve without getting dropouts, crackles and pops:

The box was a Pentium 133, not a 2GHz CPU .... ;-)
http://www.gardena.net/benno/linux/audio/2.2.10-p133-3x128/3x128.html

cheers,
Benno

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#183204 - 10/03/03 06:08 AM Re: LIONSTRACS MEDIASTATION X-76...what you think?
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Benno,
Thanx for the Super reply and explaination of how the X76 works. The concept is very interesting, makes sense & seems to be what the future holds. I hope the words "User Friendly come to mind also when using the
X-76, that is combination with the high tech OS, online future upgrades make your product very attractive. Please keep us informed. Thanx for sharing.

Donny NJ

------------------
www.donnypesce.com

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#183205 - 10/03/03 06:30 AM Re: LIONSTRACS MEDIASTATION X-76...what you think?
Roel Offline
Member

Registered: 06/24/99
Posts: 1232
Domenik & SBenno
Thanks for all information. You made me curious after explaining the concept. Please let us know when the internet site is optimized or the X-76 (demo) is available.

Domenik : I was not aware of the fact you are one of the engineers/designers. I wrote 'to be honest...' what means "In fact..." (nobody is a liar on this great forum )

Roel

[This message has been edited by Roel (edited 10-03-2003).]

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#183206 - 10/03/03 06:43 AM Re: LIONSTRACS MEDIASTATION X-76...what you think?
sbenno Offline
Member

Registered: 10/03/03
Posts: 35
Thanks Donny,
yes we will keep you guys posted, we are really in the final sprint phase and the pieces of the puzzle are coming along nicely and will very soon bear their fruits.
As for user friendliness do not worry, some of the lionstracs people are musicians themselves and regularly play in piano bars and with bands so they know what the musicians want. Plus they are in contact with groups of keyboarders that are totally computer illiterate which help us to test the ease of use of the keyboard. The mediastation will be just as easy to use as any other keyboard, just a few orders of magnitude more flexible.
And as said we plan to build a big user community around the mediastation where users can directly talk to developers, contribute ideas AND code thanks to the open source development model.
This means that the software will constantly getting improved with maximum benefits for everyone.

cheers,
Benno

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#183207 - 10/03/03 08:59 AM Re: LIONSTRACS MEDIASTATION X-76...what you think?
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
What a concept. . . dialogue between the designers and the people who actually use the keyboard BEFORE something goes wrong!
If the keyboard continues to develop and becomes available, you may capture the high-end market.
DonM
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DonM

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