You guys know I don't know much about sound. All these years (decades) of playing, heck I barely know how to plug in and make it work. Somebody else always twiddled the knobs. Now that I do it on my own, wow, is there much to learn!

Anyway, I'd like to know why this is. Why do I sound so much better with a $100 ($50 to me, rebate, yippee!) Logitech z2200 system than I do with a Carvin $1,500 sound system? The Carvin is pro-sound, a 12-channel mixer and 15" speakers.

My voice is baritone, I sing lower than many people. The sound I am getting... my voice just sounds so much better on the Logitech. It seems to pick up more vibrato and I'm not trying to do anything. It sounds much richer.

Is it the sub that makes the difference? If so, this confuses me. Because it's such a big difference, I would want this difference no matter what kind of system I was using.

To the guy who said the Logitech is toyish, all I can tell you is this amazes me.

Anytime you have a bi-amped system, where there is a crossover that separates the bass and highs, it is inherently more efficient and cleaner. That's why the self-powered systems such as the Logitechs, Barbettas, Eons, etc are so popular, in my opinion.
You can't ALWAYS equate price and results! Sometimes you get more than you pay for.
DonM

Okay, Don, first I don't really understand what you mean by that. Well, kinda. But point is, what confuses me is what would one have to do to make, say, the Carvin pro sound system sound like this? My feeble mind wonders why a $1,500 system would not have whatever this is to make this difference.

Maybe the Logitech is just an anomaly, a fortuitous discovery?

And... does this sub make a difference? You didn't indicate that, if it does. I'd like to know the answer to this situation because it is a definite improvement. Thanks.

The sub absolutely makes a difference. I'm sure you are hearing frequencies that the Carvin can't reproduce. I'm also sure that the Carvin will go louder without distortion than the Logitechs. The Logitechs are made for home entertainment or computer systems but are quite good is small rooms. I'm sure there will be situations in which you will find they don't quite do the job. Also, you will need to be careful when moving and setting up the Logitechs as the little wires and connectors are really designed for this type of use. I suspect they will be pretty susceptible to damage.
To get the same quality of sound in larger systems is quite expensive, as most of the top-end, self-powered, bi-amped units run in the $800/ per side range.
I was just on the phone with Hank The Lurker telling him how great his Barbetta 31Cs are. I've been trying them out, and I'm seriously thinking about switching from my 32Cs. I can't tell any difference in the sound, and his are smaller and a little lighter.
I believe the 32Cs would be better in really large situations, but 95% of my jobs are small. I plan to hook both sets up and experiment a little before deciding.
DonM

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Part of the secret is in the long-throw speaker technology. Conventional speakers have large surface areas and dont move in and out very far. Long-throw speakers have small surface but can travel far out and far in. They can move large volumes of air, and this is what you need for bass so low that it is felt rather than heard.

Also the tiny treble speakers do a good job with the frequencies that carry speech information so vowels and consonats come through clearly

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Douglas Wolfe

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I use a triamped system. I have an Altec-Lansing 3-piece which I supplement with a keyboard amp. A 20-watt one for small rooms and a 150-watt one for bigger rooms. It seems to me that the subwoof carries the bottom and the satellites carry the definition and intelligibility. The keyboard amp carries the midrange, and this comes across as the perception of loudness. If I am not loud enough, its the K/B amp that gets turned up.

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So, say, the Barbettas will produce superior sound to say, my Carvin pro sound system? Benefit of my Carvin is 12 channels?

In my opinion the Barbettas blow away most all traditional p.a. systems unless they are biamped. They each have 4 input channels, but you can use them with a mixer, as I usually do.
Downside is they are very expensive and it's almost impossible to find the used, because once you buy them you don't want to sell them.
DonM

[This message has been edited by DonM (edited 01-03-2005).]

DonM - in my experience, the advantage of the 32c is that the 15" spkr will handle bass much better than than the 31c with two 8" spkrs. If kickin' bass is important to your sound (it is to mine when I play left hand bass, especially) the extra couple of pounds might be worth it.

What do you say?

That's what has amazed me--the bass response on the 31 is really good. I don't know how they get that sound with the two 8's. I have used both the 32s and 31s separately but never had them side by side, but I expect to do that in the next couple of days. You may be right about the really deep lows, but that's what I want to find out.
DonM

DonM

Please let us know your feelings about the bass response after your A/B test...ykc

I've made that comparrison, and the dual 8's don't push as much air as the single 15. They do sound great, but the overall presence is different. They are more defined, but get splatty at higher volume levels. They can put out a good bit of sound, though ..... enough to make them "walk" around from the rattle they produce !

Semi,

This is my setup; Behringer PMX2000 Stereo powered mixer (500 Watts), 2 PC-15 Peavey 15" speakers with horns. This system is cheap, light, and powereful. It has plenty of bass, so much so that I can do a DJ gig without a sub-woofer. I use this as my keyboard setup as well as our rehearsal PA. I paid $259 for the PMX and another $260 for the speakers, all were B-stock items. I've had nothing but great success and reliability with this system. The speakers are plastic and weigh something in the 20-30 lb range.

You might want to check this out. I use this system in a 7 piece band!

Al

Wow, $520, that's definitely something I did NOT know about when I bought. If I would have known I could have gotten virtually same sound from a $520 system versus $1,500 Carvin system... (assuming the sound is comparable)...

SemiLive,

The price difference is explained in part by the fact that Carvins are made in the USA, whereas Behringers are made in China, so you can find solace in the fact that the extra money you paid has kept some American gainfully employed

The other difference between Logitechs and any "pro" gear, is that the "pro" manufacturers produce perhaps hundreds of units, whereas Logitech has tens or hundreds of thousands of the speaker sets made (probaby somewhere in Indonesia). So the economies of scale come into play bigtime (you could pay 2-3 times as much if these were made one at a time, like the Carvins).

And of course, with the Logitechs you need to use an external mixer.

Are you sure? (Not doubting you, just was surprised by the following.)

I bought a Carvin guitar and it's made in China. Very well-made, as well. It's a great guitar. It's amazing to me the quality of guitars that are coming from Asia. For $600, you can buy one heckuva guitar. To me, it's comparable to a Taylor (American) that I had. Which cost $1,300.

I have the logitechs myself, and I think they are great for my studio and rehearsal work. I do not like the sound of my voice through this system. It is very harsh and boomy. I'm using a Shure Beta-57 through the Tyros. I think I sound Yukky, like i'm in a closet or something.

When I go through the Powered Mixer and the 15"'s, my voice sounds rich and sparkly with good mid-tones.

I have taken the Logitechs out to rehearsals with a singer, and with the BASS all the way down, the system sounds boomy and lackluster.

Let me quality the above by saying, this is to MY taste and you mileage may vary.

Don... I'm also anxious to learn about your 31C/32 A/B comparison.

While you're at it, it'd be interesting to compare one of those speakers with and without the mixer... not necessarily comparing volume, but the definition and clarity of sound... thx.

BTW, I recently heard someone doing a single with an older PSR and a Barbetta 2200, a smaller yet amp no longer in production... sounded great.

Glenn

I hope to try them this afternoon. I have used both sets both with and without mixer. I can't tell any difference in quality or clarity. The Tyros has an excellent internal mixer, so when I use an external mixer, I set it almost completely flat anyway.
I HAVE found that using balanced cables between the mixer and amps seems to make them sound better. I can't describe the difference. Maybe it is perceived. I discussed this with Tony Barbetta at length, and he said that he observed the same thing.
The Barbettas have 1/4-inch inputs that are either unbalanced or balanced depending upon whether you use standard cables or balanced (trs) cables. Of course the output from the mixer must be balanced also.
DonM

Actually, I am not sure. I remember that a few years ago, when I was on Carvin's mailing list, their catalog was boasting that all of their products were made in the USA. However, things may have changed since then.

A while back I was shopping for a grand piano, and in the course of my research found that these days most manufacturers build their pianos (and many other instruments) in China. This includes many well-known European and Japanese makers, such as Yamaha and Kawai. In fact Steinway is one of a very few manufacturers who builds their pianos outside of China (in the US). In addition to a very hefty price tag, many dealers also reported that they required a lot of maintenance - up to 8 hours of tuning and adjustment before they were ready to go on a shop floor, which made those dealers very unhappy. I believe things have improved since then, but I certainly agree that "made in China" is not synonymous with "poor quality".

Carvin states that some of the line is made out of the USA, but to Carvin standards...

Don, I am not quite sure that bi-amp is needed to sound great,,,I think that crossovers are the key...I still prefer my "old" Roland keyboard amps,,they are 3 way with 15's that go down to around 38 freq. response...when I use a pair with my Mackie CFX mixer[9 band stereo eq] ..everything sounds great...Over the years I A,B'd them with Peavey,Carlsbad,Barbetta,Yorkville,Toa, and even Mackie....I just like them better..At $800 list in 1985 [each],they were pricy...hey but I still use them everyday...is there any better track record out there...

Fran, you're probably right about the sound. The crossover is the key. However, I believe the internal biamps are so efficient that it enables them to keep the weight down. The Barbettas are in the 30-pound category. ESSENTIAL for us old guys.
DonM

I have read your comments with interest although I must admit I do not understand all of it.
Explains why I am not satisfied with the sound of my voice through the the computer speakers {Infinity )
You may have read my comments regarding the Casio PX-400R,however I do like the sound of my voice through its speakers.
I am a Bass Baritone and would like to know what songs you sing SemiliveMusic.
I hope that my voice will sound as good through the speakers of the PSR300O
Only five more sleeps and I will be able to pick it up.

I really don't know what you mean. You mean style or actual songs? Anyway, focus is original music (songwriter) but I sing covers as well. Much country, pop, folk. My voice just sounds "better" with the z2200.

Hi Don,

Have you had a chance yet?

Glenn

Today, I promise! . . . I hope.
DonM

Thanks, Don... we put our ears in your hands.