As I mentioned on another thread, acoustic instrument players tend to eventually settle on a single instrument that they develop a lifetime playing bond with. On the other hand, electronic arranger keyboards (as evidenced by members here) tend to be continously sold or traded in for 'next years' model. I suppose the big reason is that electronic technology is continously improving (by the week) whereas acoustic instrument physics remains constant.

Still, I thought it would be interesting to speculate, if for whatever reason keyboard manufacterers suddenly decided to no longer release NEW model arranger keyboards, do you think the 'arranger keyboard' make/model you currently own, would continue to provide you music making/playing satisfaction TEN years from now? - Scott

Scott, absolutely...What I have been using for the last six years is still my favorite so it will work for me another ten year...I don't agree with this "dated" concept...A piano sounds like a piano today just like it always has..same with a sax,trumpet,guitar choir etc.
A rhumba,cha cha,swing ,bossonova etc are the same as twenty years ago..
If they stopped making new models..I still would be content....besides new models are usually new toys to me..I try them because they are new..

I would go to a soft-synth computer based arranger setup.

I'd have to agree with Fran
If somethin' works....don't fix it!

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...L

There's lots of keyboards over ten years old now that are in demand, and synth technology really hasn't made any quantum leaps forward lately so current instruments will certainly have a useful life of ten years or more, in capable hands of course.

Arranger keyboards are probably the most common type of electronic keyboard in the world currently. They aren't going away, but the so-called "pro models" might. I don't think they've been marketed in a way that attracts pro players and they are often too sophisticated and expensive for casual players. Yamaha has broken a little of the ice by including chord-recognition in the arpeggiator function of the Motif ES, but I think we're awaiting the next advance in arrangers before we can say whether pros will ever take to arrangers. That next step is probably arranger-type functions that work not only with MIDI but with MP3's, WAV files, and "Acidized" loops. We'll certainly see softsynths become more commonplace so in the next ten years I see many of us moving into softsynth host instruments, which will take us away from the Y/K/R relationships we've all come to love/hate. Once we integrate soft arranger programs with softsynths and reliable host instruments, it won't be a question of whether arranger keyboards stop being made but whether they will simply become old fashioned.

Yes I agree.
I had a Solton ms60 for years before I brought a Ketron XD9. I still see people using the Solton ms60 keyboards and unless you’re a musician or in the music business, your average person won't really tell the difference.

its an interesting question. I have been very very close to purchaseing the Korg PA1X . I currentley have the Yamaha PSR 8000. I went to a shop and played the PA1x and was really smitten by it. But then i went home and tried to reproduce some of the programming and styles that had so turned me on.My keyboard is probably ten years old now. But i was able to reproduce some of the styles quite easily and started to dig deeper into my board . So i asked myself the simple question. Is my prospective new keyboard giving me £1500 additional value compared to my existing board ?The answer was no..... So i started to spend time with my keyboard again, and i have realised that there are functions on the board that i never utilised because i never took the time to get to grips with it.

If there were no updates and no new keyboards we would become much more creative with the instruments that we have. And we would become experts on our machines and actually get more than £1500 worth of value from the boards we currently own. The technology does not make us better players.But familiarity and practice does

The only way an arranger keyboard can become obsolete is if you only use the built in styles etc. to define your sound. If you add your OWN style, chording, and personal input to basic styles and arrangements, it will be as fresh as you feel on any given day.
As long as the player adds a personal touch, the instrument is a distant second to the mix.

Spaulding: I agree. Yours was 'just the answer' I was so wanting to hear.

Looking back among the sz threads, there appears more interest in what the 'next new arranger model coming out is going to be, than discussing the more important topic to actual players: arranger 'playing techniques' universally applicable to most ALL make/model arrangers.

These topics include (but are certainly not limited to) how best to utilize: intros, fills, variation changes, multipad hits & patterns, and endings, wheel & foot pedal assignment & playing techniques in auto accomp mode, registration programming, suitable choice of different harmony types for specific song genres, performance in different arranger keyboard modes: from 'on the fly' playing to utilizing 'registrations', and other playing modes, from split keyboard, one finger, 3 finger, full keyboard mode, etc; and finally: discussing specific arranger KB 'practicing techniques'. For example: I occasionally devote 10 minutes practice a day, focussing on the timing (triggering) of the arranger transition buttons/footpedals to ensure that a 'fill', break, or variation comes in at exactly the right moment, and by touch (no looking) as well. This is just ONE of many arranger specific practice techniques I think worth discussing.

These techniques are universal to all arrangers, so in an effort to PROMOTE better skilled and musically CREATIVE arranger keyboard 'PLAYING' no matter which arranger we own, I think more interest & discussion of creative arranger playing techniques would prove beneficial to ALL Synthzone Arranger keyboard forum members. What do you think?

Scott

DITTO!!

Chico

so what I'l use whats already available on the market the talent is in me not the KB.

Like other members have said it is not the arranger keyboard that makes the difference, but the person playing and programming the arranger.

An arranger keyboard is just a tool for us to be able to make and perform good music. It is up to us as players and performers to know the keyboard and to make the most out of it.

To me, there are two aspects to using an arranger completely: 1. programming sounds and styles and
2. Actually playing the keyboard.

Every time I learn a new song, I then try to see what would be the best way for me to perform the song i.e. do I use an existing style, do I modify an existing style, do I create a new style, do I use a midi file, do I create registrations ….
After I have gotten through that part (programming), I then would spend some time actually playing the song with the style and sounds paying attention to timing when pressing the fill button and when to press the start/stop peddle and so on … I usually think of that as the mechanics of playing the arranger. Kind of like practicing a new classical piece, getting it up to a performance standard.

I think that any arranger that has style making capabilities and sound editing, could last as long as you want it to as long as you are willing to spend the time being creative. If I were to get a new arranger, I would have to still have my old one until I can fully use and master the new arranger.

It's not that the older ones won't do it, it's that we are always hoping the newer ones do it easier and better.
For example, I could still be playing a Technics KN2000, BUT there was virtually no memory. Everything had to be loaded from floppy, and a single-side one at that.
The newer boards have eliminated external effects processors, vocal processors, harmonizers, tone modules, drum machines, mixers, samplers, sequencers. For example Yamaha made a tremendous advance in the quality of the drums between PSR 9000, 2000 and Tyros.
Now what will the next one add? MP3s? Wavs? CD recorders? Digital Recorders? Which features to we need or want? That's up to you. That's the enticement of the "next greatest thing".
To answer your question--Yes, I could do just fine with what I have for years to come. But I don't want to.
DonM

Scott that's a really good question!

"As I mentioned on another thread, acoustic instrument players tend to eventually settle on a single instrument that they develop a lifetime playing bond with".
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I've noticed there are a lot or people that play acoustic instruments that trade up as often as keyboard players. A good friend of mine manages a local music store here, and from time to time I'll spend an afternoon there with him. I was shocked to see how many musicians who played guitar, drums, and other acoustic instruments traded up for a newer model every year or every few months. Many of the guitars he had on consignment were owned for a year or six months. Man I knew this one guy who got a new guitar every 3 months.

I think keyboardists would be ok if it was to happen. I still see musicians performing with Korg M1's Casio CZ's, Yamaha DX's, and Roland Juno's. They've owned them for years and they still work well for them.

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 12-09-2004).]

If this isn't a nightmare, but reality, then it would mean I had to keep playing my PSR3000 for the next 20 years. If it breaks down, maybe back to the DX7 and MT32 (I still have them). But I wouldn't have as much fun as I have now - I don't like to go back to "how things were".
If all my electronic instruments break down and cannot be replaced, I will go back to the accordeon and play with real people again.


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drdalet

[This message has been edited by drdalet (edited 12-10-2004).]

The reason we buy newer models is because they sound better
Newer models are usually technically superior, and have more waverom (thus more sounds & better sound quality), better styles (because of the newer & improved sounds, and more polyphony allows programmers to create more complex styles as well), I think that most keyboardists (including myself) seek the ultimate in sound realism, we want our arrangers to sound as close to the real thing as possible, and every new generation is a step closer to "The real thing".
And newer models will have improved & new features to even make playing keyboards more fun and easier and more efficient then before.
Of course it still depends on the player how good the music sounds, but the sound itself and the quality and realism of it will depend on the keyboard you use, and a great sounding keyboard will make you sound a lot better, but wont make you play better.
I'm already looking forward to what the future has in store for us "electronic" musicians, and what improvements will be made on future models.

Greetz ,
Marcel

It isn't just a matter of learning more about your instrument, although that might be helpful to some. What happens when you exceed your keyboard's capabilities? It seems to me that everytime I sit down to practice with my Yamaha keyboards, I'll be working smoothly then suddenly I'll run into a "gotcha" - some aspect of the keyboard's design or support that forces me to compromise in some way. And it keeps happening, especially with the 9000 Pro. It's very frustrating - so many aspects of the 9000 Pro fit my live performing needs so well yet the limitations are all too apparent.

I have this illusion that Yamaha or Korg or Roland is planning on coming out with a breakthrough pro-level arranger that will fulfill both my professional needs and their promises, but the evidence is to the contrary.

My plan is to continue to use my two 9000 Pros until either a company comes forth with a suitable replacement instrument or I can design my own, the latter of which is the most probable occurance. That's why softsynths and customizable host instruments that support them look so promising - no one company would be able to hold it's customers hostage to their own poor standards.

The lessons we've learned over the past ten and twenty years as digital keyboard consumers have taught us not to rely too heavily on any one company or instrument for our livelihoods. It's only now becoming a reality that we can effectively change this... and it won't be a moment too soon IMHO.

Let me also agree ten times! with this one and add a link: (read point #10; btw the whole article is quite an interesting reading):
http://www.gapingvoid.com/Moveable_Type/archives/000932.html

-- José.

This link is definitely worth a read - some very wise words here!

if any one listens to a great guitarist or pianist what makes them sound great ? I went to Ronnie Scotts in Birmingham England (before they turned it into a strip club !!) and listened to a a band playing live( i forget their name) they had a guitarist and a saxophonist, a vocalist who was very good and a guy on the bongos. But what blew me away was the guitarist. He was playing lead , rhythm, bass and percusion all at the same time on the one instrument. This was just an ordinary guitar. But what made this one of the most amazing performances that i have ever seen was the guitarist. The technology does not make us better musicians neither does its progression or not, limit our own creative ability and expression. Only our imagination ( or lack of it ) limits us.Sometimes the messing about with the technology and its endless possibilities actually gets in the way of playing great music. I have lost many hours creating really interesting sounds that have limited practical use, or playing with digital effects within the mix of a complexsequence just to see what it sounds like ....

Hi,
I would look for fellow musicians and the event mangager would pay this (because there would be no way to get danceable live music).
Or I would use MIDI files or create MIDI files. Or buying an organ and ask for making the organ more or less portable.
Who's at least the winner? The DJs!

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Regards
RF

Hi Scott,
unfortunately they did stop making mine (Technics) so I swapped to a software based arranger ( OMB ) a digital piano with an XG sound source (Yamaha Clavinova) plus a couple of soft synths ( Synergi Fonts/Edirol Hypercanvas ).
Keeps this hobbyist happy.

best wishes
Rikki