Actually I just saw two software synths which seem to look quite good on paper .

1.Propellerhead Reason 3.0
2.Cakewalk Project 5

Those seem to be able to do everything I could think of doing . I think they cost a few hundred bucks but even with a midi keyboard controller and a better soundcard it would still come quite a bit cheaper than any of the three major hardware synths .

What's your experience with those two ? Do you know them ?

Yeah I'm sure the Motif ES sound terrific , the Triton Extreme seems to have the most preloaded sounds and the Roland Fantom X seems to have the largest expansion capabilities with all of those SRX boards and room for four of them .

[This message has been edited by Darksounds (edited 08-07-2005).]

You can do some incredible things with Reason. I did not choose it simply because it does not support Vst or Dx synths and effects. I said it above... It has some cool synths and "refill" ( sample ) packs, but you cannot expand beyond what Propellerheads offer, and my very reason for going the software route is to have as open a platform as possible. At this time, Vst, DX, and sampling in general offer the most paths. Also, aside from having the quality of built in synths, FL and Orion can for the most part do anything Reason does. Their approaches are similar in many ways.

I tried Project 5 version 1. It is more in line with FL and Orion Platinum, in that it does support Vst and DX technology. I did not like the interface ( particularly the way the sequencers are setup ) very much at all vs FL or Orion. Also, midi implementation itself was very limited vs the FL / Orion. I have not tried Version 2, but others have stated that it is much improved so perhaps I would find it useful to me. I'm happy with what I have already though, so no need for me to find out.


All of these have working demos, so perhaps it is best to try them out and see which works best for you.

AJ

Yes I learned through reading up on these software synths I mentioned that Reason while having good features included is limited in upgradability to what Propellerhead offers . Uploading samples is equally limited to only those that are in the Sound Font 2 format . They say that they are working on an update that would allow for the import of Akai samples as well .

yeah v.2 of Project 5 has many improvements and as you say is much more open ended about the instruments , Applications and samples it can run .

I'll check out Orion too .

OK it seems to me that for my purposes Fruity Loops or Cakewalk Project 5 v.2 are probably best .

I think both are a little thin on effects compared to a hardware synth but more can be added as well as new compatible synths and instruments though I might also be using samples alot .

I think you have the picture. FL, Proj V, etc are the core of the system. The quality comes in adding what you want. The built in effects and synths are pretty much just for starters, not really very different than the ones that come with Cubase, Sonar, Orion, Logic etc.

The freeware Voxengo and Kjaerhus vst plug ins that can be downloaded are probably as good if not better than anything I have on my Motif ES.

I am a bit curious as to what has been improved in Vers 2 of Project V. It would have to make my workflow easier and have features that would make it better for me to use than the combination of Sonar and FL.

I might just look up some of the posts now myself over at KVR Audio relating to it...

AJ

Yeah though in my case most of the production tools in Cakewalk 5 v.2 will probably suffice . I might add a vocal modifier application if I decide that I want to add vocals .

I can if I wish to just play a melody with a single instrument select a particular synth engine and instrument and then just play that without doing anything to it right ? Because that's how I would get ideas .

I found this in depth review of Cakewalk Project 5 v.2 at Sonicstate .


Introducing
Did you know that the 'Cakewalk' is a ritualistic dance or set of movements originated by African tribes and developed by Afro-American slaves as a parody of their white masters exaggerated style of walking?
'Cakewalk Software' alternatively, have been developing and producing innovative music sequencers and midi-based software products since the early 90's. They're good, and they have a trailer load of awards to prove it. Last year alone winning Best Sequencer, Best Buy and Best New Software in a variety of trade publications.

Their latest product is Project 5 V2. Like Project 5 V1, version 2 is a 'studio-in-a-box'. No, really, this time it is. No, I'm telling you, this is a 'studio-in-a-box'. OK, it's an over-worked expression, (and this programme is actually much more than just that, as I'll explain later) but Project 5 V2 comes closer than most to that holiest of Grails, the 'Soft Studio'. And here's why: flexibility and expandability. Version 2's got plenty of both. In fact this has more cross-platform than Clapham Junction and Grand Central combined and like a downtown cabbie, it'll talk to anything. DX, Dxi, MFX, ReWire, WDM, VST, VSTi, throw Version 2 any format you can think of and it'll eat it for breakfast.

Project5 workspace
It's three S's, sampler, sequencer and soft synth (OK, that's four S's) have GUI's that are both complex but intuitive at the same time. They are thoughtfully designed and instantly effective in use. (They are also very pretty and may evoke a sexual reaction amongst younger users. Something you learn to control in later life).

The key features add to the flexible theme with pattern-based sequencers and processors, ACID tm compatible audio-looping tools, live performance and realtime features, VST plug-in support (with VST/DX adaptor). And how's this? The installation DVD contains nearly 2 CD's worth of PRO DS864 sampler banks and ACID tm format loops from PowerFX and Loopmasters, ProSamples and Smart Loops.

First Impressions
Project 5 V2 installs from a single DVD (although you can request it on CD for a few extra bucks) and minutes after eagerly tearing apart the box you will be ready to write your first choon. The 'fast track guide' (the word 'manual' just ain't rock 'n' roll no more) has a set of 17 tutorials that include Playing a Project, Using Audio Loops and Adding instruments to Tracks. There's a section on new features and a guide to instruments and effects. The booklet also cross-references the help available on-line through the Cakewalk Software site. The tutorials could be more in-depth and it's lacking a decent glossary, which would be useful, as Cakewalk have re-christened just about everything that can be named. (Hey, put some more Exaggerator on that Groove-arama-thon-ator). But I've seen worse and it's certainly enough to get you started.
Once installed, the environment is essentially very intuitive and it's easy to navigate around and see what V2 has to offer. And, oh boy, there sure is a lot on offer.

P-SEQ Pattern Sequencer
Let's start with the sequencer. P-SEQ is a pattern sequencer offering Step and realtime recording in a piano roll stylee. Click on a pattern and the synth and related parameters appear in front of your eyes. The 'pattern bin' allows you to audition or browse through and Organise multiple patterns. You can drag the patterns into the pattern editor for additional editing. When fully edited you can send your pattern to the track where you can cut and paste it wherever you like

SYNCRON32 - Analogue Style Step Sequencer
This provides 32 steps with control over pitch, tempo sync, rhythmic duration with shuffle, per-step flam, legato and bends. You can use it to generate patterns, trigger synths and trigger patterns from midi devices. Again, like the P-SEQ, you can cut and paste these patterns into the track.

VELOCITY - Drum Sampler


Velocity
This little monster allows you to build all sorts of drumkits that then become instantly accessible for use on your tracks. It supports all the regular sample formats and there are 18 polyphonic voices available with up to 32 velocity-layered samples. You can reverse, filter or decimate. There are 5 stereo outs and full automation and a CD's worth of drumkits to get you going.

CYCLONE Dxi - Groove Sampler
With the Cyclone you are able to record loop-based compositions in real time and your loaded samples will match the pitch and tempo of your project. The Cyclone makes it easy to tweak, combine and slice your samples to make new beats and grooves. The Cyclone features 16 virtual pads which can be used to trigger individual slices of loops or multiple loops. You can alter the values of each slice with the Slice
nPULSE - Analogue Modular Drum Synth


nPULSE
This allows you to emulate all the usual line-up of classic drum boxes. It's a 12 voice, multi timbral synth with multiple presets and full parameter automation.


DS864 - Multiformat Digital Sampler


DS864
This is a multitimbral, multi-output sampler capable of receiving MIDI on up to 16 channels. Each MIDI channel can in turn be assigned to 1 of 8 stereo outputs for effects processing, parameter automation, key mapping and velocity zones. It supports Akai S5000/6000, Kurzweil, Sound Fonts 2, WAV, AIF and proprietary sample formats.

There will be hardcore Version one-ers out there who were using Project 5 when John Kerry was on every TV channel. And right now they'll probably be saying, "all this stuff was available on Version 1. What's so whoopee-doo about version 2?"

OK, well, I was getting to that.


The whoopee-doo new stuff
DIMENSION - Sampling Synthesizer.


DIMENSION
This is a sample playback softie capable of wavetable and physical modeling. Dimension is composed of four individual sound generation components called Elements. Each Element has a complete engine composed by a player, a per-voice DSP stage (lo-fi, filter and drive), a global DSP stage (three band parametric EQ, multi effect) and a set of Modulators (envelopes, low frequency oscillators and keyboard tracking applied to the main sound generation parameters). The sound generated by the four Elements is mixed and routed to the stereo output. With the Dimension, you can quickly load samples in virtually any format and start playing. It's completely hands-on. All the controls are right there without trawling through loads of menus. You can layer different programs to make complex voices as the Dimension allows you 8 layers of 512 samples each per program - which is a good thing as there's nearly 3GB of included samples on the DVD. You can fine tune, pan, reverse, invert and decimate your single samples or entire layers. There are also two beefy resonant filters that operate in series or parallel each having their own envelopes. Envelope stages can be logarithmic or exponential (big words for slow or fast). Three LFO's allow vibrato, tremolo and filter sweeps in sync with the music.

Groove matrix
Opening up the GrooveMatrix view will display rows and columns of cells that resemble controller pads. From there you can drag MIDI patterns and loops from your ÑArrangeÒ view or browser into the cells, and trigger a beat or groove by simply clicking on a cell or via MIDI remote control. The columns (or panes as Cakewalk calls them), can be used to organize your composition into different sections (chorus, breakdown, solo, fill, etc), and can also be triggered to play back all the cells in a selected pane. Those familliar with Abelton Live will feel right at home here. You can set up cells or panes to change immediately, on the measure or by a designated note length (great for beat juggling), and cells can play back as loops or Ñone-shots.Ò And when you are ready, just arm the GrooveMatrix, and record directly into the ÑArrangeÒ view. The ability to drag in new MIDI patterns and loops on the fly from the arrangement without a break in your audio engine is impressive.

ROLAND GROOVE SYNTH


Roland Groovesynth

This is a GM2 compatible software synth featuring newly developed software synthesis engine with 256 sounds and 9 drum sets built in. You'll be pleased to know that this also includes samples from Roland's vintage machines. Polyphony is 128 notes depending on the performance of your computer. Which seems like a good point to mention that Project 5 in general requires a fairly high spec computer. Your processor will need to be at least 1.5 Ghtz with a gig or more of RAM and a damn fine amount of space on your drive will be a big advantage, too. The minimum spec OS is Windows 2000 and don't forget you'll need a DVD drive to install the program.

PVFX - effects, effects, effects.
This contributes to the live and real-time feel and usability that features highly in Project 5 V2. It has six primary effects Transposer, Accumilator, Exaggerator, Lo-Hi Filter, Tracer and Shifter. With these FX you can pitch shift, filter and morph, glissando, delay, reverberate and bend all in real time. Additional automated FX include tempo sync modulation filter, multi-voice chorus and flanger, tempo-synced phase, compressor, gate and 2 band parametric EQ.


Other features
These include an arpeggiator which can be layed across any of the soft synths for that ultimate digga-digga-digga-digga stuff. Also there's the Alias Factor with which you can decimate till you can decimate no more by reducing bits and applying a low-pass filter. Nice. And, get this. The Devise Chain Preset let's you save setups complete with FX's and tweaks and then call it up in another project. Great.

Project 5 V2 is a ReWire client and host so you can now run apps like Reason and Fruity Loops directly inside the application. It will send midi sync to hardware sequencers and, yes, Project 5 V2 does record audio.


Summing up
The Competition
Ableton Live 4 realtime sonic surgery. $399 www.ableton.com
Price@Samedaymusic.com
Propellerheads Reason The original and digital. $699.95 www.propellerheads.se
Price@Samedaymusic.com


Cubase SX/SL sequencing VST environ. $595 www.steinberg.com
Price@Samedaymusic.com

SoundForge for all your audio editing needs. $399.95
mediasoftware.sonypictures.com
Price@Samedaymusic.com

ACID looping and sequencing (acee-eed! Acee-eed!). $225.95 www.sony.com
Price@Samedaymusic.com


Unsurprisingly, Project 5 is not the only contender for the virtual sound design crown. The already established Ableton Live 4 offers many of the same features. It too has been described as an exciting and highly intuitive performance based programme and is a favoured tool with the DJ fraternity.

Then, of course, there's Propellerheads Reason, the original studio-in-a-box (no, really, it is!) and Cakewalk have been careful to include cross compatibility with all these other products. Alternatively, you can of course create your own soft studio using a variety of software and hardware that is your own design and is not dictated to or governed by any one specific corporation. (HmmÅnow there's a thought!)

Project 5 V2 is an entire performance based software system. This new wave of programming aims to revolutionize the live performance market with instant on-the-fly editing and sequencing for real-time recording, Dj-ing, simulcasts or straight to media enterprises. But it's just as much at home in a pro studio set up, condensing hardware needs to virtually zero and offering unprecedented amounts of flexibility and integration with existing set ups.
With its real-time functionality, intuitive usability and open architecture, Project 5 V2 comes in on an equal footing with its closest competitors. Infact, its adaptability means that it actively encourages integration with other similar systems to expand your PC's ability to perform complex exercises and ultimately create better results.

Any downsides? Well, not everyone would want all their tools tied to one program. This complete package may mean that some of your old favourites may get consigned to software heaven or simply left to do menial tasks - unless of course they are ReWire savvy and then you can run them from inside P5 V2. But nevertheless, your results could wind up having a similar feel and sound quality. Great if that's what you want, but more creative freedom may come from combining Project 5 with your other more familiar tools and programmes.

All in all it's a stunning piece of kit for the price and if you already have version 1 you can upgrade to version 2 for very little. All in all, it's hard to imagine what else you could need in a live or studio environment. But I'm sure that if there is more, Cakewalk are developing it right now.

Finally
In the end it may all come down to a price battle or a who-can-bundle-the-most-samples-and-extra-features-all-out-war. But whatever happens, the future looks good for musicians, DJ's, sound engineers, live performers and bedroom mixers looking for performance related solutions. Is Cakewalk's Project 5 Version 2 a 'Studio-in-a-box'? Gosh darn it, it's the closest yet.



[This message has been edited by Darksounds (edited 08-08-2005).]