First of what I want to do which is always helpful in such topics :
"Create music in the following fields : Gothic Industrial , Goth Rock , Orchestrial , Synthpop , New Wave , EBM, New Age "

OK maybe someone can help me with all the different options available for a person who wants to start making music . Please tell me if you can the following about each possible option .


Arranger Keyboard:
1.Who is it for ?
2.Is it good for making music from scratch into a final mix ?
3.Is it good for less mainstream music ( Goth , Industrial , Orchestrial) ?
4.Good for use with commercially available sample libaries?
5.Pros and Cons?


Synthesizer Workstation :
1.Who is it for ?
2.Is it good for making from scratch and for alernative music ?
3.Good for use with commercially available sample libaries?
4.Pros and Cons


Software synth
1.Who is it for ?
2.Good for making music from scratch and alternative styles?
3.Good for use with commercially available sample libaries?
4.Does one still use a traditional hardware keyboard with a software synthesizer ?
5.Pros and Cons?

I don't think an aranger keyboard is what you are looking for. Arrangers are for general use - they can address a variety of styles acceptably well for live performance. It will do everything from Jazz to Hip-Hop, but the styles you mention seem pretty specialized.

I would suggest you look into a program called Fruity Loops. It is a loop-based composing program which emulates a hardware instrument called a "beat box." I have only tried it cursorily. If you search with Google you can find other groups that explain this unit and other hardware and software devices suitable for techno. You should be able to find a demo of Fruity Loops also.

Good luck, and please describe "Orchestrial." This is a term I have not heard.

If you are good at creating things from scratch, you can create your own styles if you have a high-end arranger. For the type of music, an arranger would not have the number of sounds that you would require; unless you get an arranger that can create and read samples.

One of the advantages of using software synths is that you don't have to run out and get another keyboard if you get tired of the sounds. You can just get more sounds to add to what you have. And you can get sounds that are specific to the music you are doing. You don’t have to get sounds that you don’t want nor need as is the case with arrangers and hardware workstations.

The Yamaha PSR 3000 or Tyros will do exactly what you wish, both are very user friendly, and you do not need lots of software to get the job accomplished. The other two choices will also do the same job, however, I don't believe they'll do it with any more effeciency, the systems are not as user friendly and if you ever do wish to expand to other genres of music, or live performances you have those options using the arranger.

Good Luck on your choice,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

I don't think any arranger is going to be the best solution for industrial, goth, etc. The premade rythyms won't necessarily lend well toward those styles, but more importantly, your sound palette will be very limited for those styles. An arranger works well for those of us who like to play live, particularly as a solo act. It also works pretty well as a scratch pad for writing songs, especially if you find creating or playing rythyms from scratch to be tedious work. It would be my last choice however for full production from start to finish, especially for the newer and less traditional genres. I have a Korg PA80 arranger, which probably ranks near the top as far as sound editing capabilities in an arranger. I can make some nasty or offbeat synth sounds with it, and program some really cool rythyms to boot. That said, I still find it to be a weak choice for the kind of music you want to make. I dabble with some experimental stuff btw, though I'm no expert at it.

A workstation / synth might work better for production from start to finish. A top flight station has everything inside to produce most genres. You can generally warp and mutilate sounds better than most arrangers will allow you to. Still, these are generally sample based instruments, so creating off beat sounds from scratch is quite possible, but I find it to be tedious work compared to taking an analog synth and making / tweaking sounds with it. I will say though, that there are talented programmers who can take samples and extract much fuller and offbeat sounds by gnarling samples than could ever be done with an analog. I have a Motif ES6. It has excellent preprogrammed arps, and you can add and make your own. There are some that might suit your genres of choice. Many of the sounds though are more acoustic instrument based. Overall I think it would be a fair choice for your preferred genres.

Someone mentioned FL Studio. BINGO !! By far, with the right VST instruments, or hardware synths that you can also control with it, this would probably suit your genres best. In a way, it's very similar to the pattern sequencer function of the Motif workstation, only a hundred times better. Why ? I'd need three pages at least, but doing stuff in a real piano roll and on a big screen for starters. Second, it has many more options and features and these are much easier to access than trying to scroll through multiple menu screens on an ES. Also, there are enough freeware synths and effects that will keep you busy with more sounds that fit your genres than any hardware I can think of ( including V synth ). Some of the commercial synths and / or samples are outstanding as well. If you can program your own rythyms at all ( or better yet play them on a midi controller of your choice ), FL is a great way to go. Also in this category are Orion Platinum ( also very good ), CW Project 5 ( only tried the demo ), Reason, but you can't use Vsti's with it and are limited to their propietary synths and refill ( sample ) packages, some of which are very good btw. I like Orion a lot too btw, but I think FL may have surpassed it as far as usability and features.

I use my Motif ES as a controller for FL and my softsynths. I also use some of the Motif voices as controlled by FL. You can use any module(s) / sampler(s) of choice, be it hardware or software. I mix and match. I have the analog modeling plug in it ( AN150 ). These are based upon the hardware analog AN series synths ( they can exchange patches ), and it's a very nice analog modeler, yet I think it almost pales in comparison to some of it's software counterparts that reside in my system ( Absynth, Pro 53, CS80V, Imposocar .. to name a few ) Industrial ? There are vst synths that are entirely dedicated to industrial type sounds, hammers, pipes, etc. You won't find that on any arranger or workstation

Cons with software ? You have to pick and choose and mix and match a lot of stuff. If you become a fanatic like me, it can get expensive and sometimes a little complicated to boot. It can be a little intimidating for the novice user, but then again I was a novice at it a few years ago too. Guys like Frank Rosenthal here at this forum and other forums like KVR did a lot to help me learn what I needed to know. I have a lot of software and have spent a good deal of money. I also have absolutely no regrets. A workstation is an all in one solution, but your limited to what's inside. Forget sampling workstations. Nice feature to have, usually tedious and not worth the effort vs a dedicated sampler.

I would suggest checking out the KVR Audio site. It might be the best resource around for soft synth systems. Many good freeware and commercial synths, samples, hosts and utilities can be found there, and there are quite a few members who are interested in genres similar to your favs. Some of these guys / gals are quite knowledgeable. Some of the freeware is awesome, and many of the developers hang out on KVR's forums.



AJ



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 07-31-2005).]

But if one still needs a hardware keyboard to control a software synth then that can get pretty expensive , not that a good workstation is cheap but then I might as well buy a workstation. Or did you guys mean that one should have a workstation and a software synth ?

Can a workstation on it's own not upload commercially available sample libaries ?

Also are the Fantom X , Motif ES and Triton Extreme really the best workstations or just the most well known ?

You don't need an expensive keyboard to control softsynths. There are several controllers in the 150-500 USd range that will work fine. If you can't afford that, you can use any midi keyboard just to play on, something at a tag sale, a pawn shop, etc. Dedicated controllers will allow you to control more synth parameters in real time though. There are plenty of free softsynths and effects that can get you on your way. A whole setup can be as inexpensive as you want to make it. In fact, you can get started right now if you have any kind of midi controller and a vst host. There are even freeware vst hosts. I would recommend a look at Synth1 ( best Nord lead emulator I've heard, free or commercial ) , Superwave P8 ( great pads, power synths ), Polyiblit, Crystal, SFZ ( soundfont player ), Karnage, Oberon 8, Free Alpha, the MIK and Killer series of synths, for starters.... along with a slew more.

Look at the kjaerhus series of freeware effect plug ins. They are quite good. There are freeware soundfonts out there that are quite good. I have one that is dedicated to industrial percussion. Check out KVR-Audio and Soundfonts.It.

There are also very good working demos of the commercial stuff, many of which the full versions can be had for under 100 USD. If you start out this way ( I did ) then at least you'll know if you think this is the direction for you, without spending much if any money.

You don't need both a workstation and softsynths, one or the other will work fine. I just happen to have both. If I had to choose, I would part with my Motif ES before giving up my software. The ES has the phrase factory ( pattern sequencer and premade patterns, the arps etc ), but since I started using FL studio, I never use it any more. There is no comparison .. the work flow is way better for me in FL...

Yes there are sample libraries for the Motif and it's major competitors, but on the Motif for example, if you want to load samples that were not specifically written ( saved as Motif voices ) for the board, it can be a rather tedious process to load and set them up. I can't be bothered. It's so much easier to do this in almost any vst sampler in FL studio ( or any vst host ), and your ability to control and alter these samples ( sound / synth parameters ) increases substantially. Also, in the ES I have to save to disk ( usb device in this case ) before I shut down and reload each time I power up. It takes several more steps and time than it does to simply save and open an FL studio file. Besides, there are quite a few ways to make sounds other than using sampling, and some of the genres you mention call for some pretty unique stuff. Analog and physical modeling come to mind. You can't do that on an ES, save for a couple of proprietary plug ins that are excellent but have their limits. There are some sounds that you can create using other methods, that will be very hard to repiclate in a sampler, and even harder to mangle / alter in real time.


The Motif ES remains a staple when I play live, but it isn't an absolute must since I have a hardware arranger, along with arranger software and softsynths ( I've used 'em all succesfully live ). I can't say that any other workstations are better or worse, I just preferred the overall sound palette available on the ES vs the Roland and Korg offerings. It has been said that the Operating sytems of the other two are more intuitive aand better to navigate in than the ES. I believe that this is probably true, but based on trying them all, I don't see that any workstation would compare to working in FL studio, at least not for me.

I'm not familiar with any other workstations that may or may not be better than what the "big three" have out there. Then again I have little interest in checking out any more workstations in general.

Ask at KVR.. There are quite a few members there that are into Industrial, Goth, New Age, Ebm, experimental, and related genres. Ask at other forums where many of the members are into those genres. I doubt that very many will recommend a workstation over an FL Studio type setup, but hey I could be wrong... it won't be the first time. Really you can use either, you have to decide what works best for you. I am rather certain that most who play your preferred genres won't recommend an arranger for those types of music though.

Cheers,
AJ



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 08-01-2005).]

I see .

A software synth is intrigueing I must admit since I can still use a real keyboard and with it being on a PC CD Burning is right in the same machine ( the PC ) .

I suppose a software synth may not have many if any presets though if they can easily upload sample libaries then that shouldn't be a problem .

Can a software synth upload all commercially available sample libaries or just specific types ?

Could a finished song with vocals ever be made with a software synth ?

Live performing is not something I would be concerned about .

Soft samplers can use just about any format hardware uses, in addition to their own proprietary formats.

Some softsynths are not sampled based at all. Some don't come with many presets, others come with a lot, if you compare to a workstation. Some have as little as 100 or even less, often because that softsynth specializes in a particular type of modeled synthesis ( subtractive, additive, granular, .. etc ), and some focus on a specific group of sounds ( leads, pads, bass, etc ).

Others, like Korg Wavestation for example, come with several hundreds, even over a thousand.

Also, there are add on patches made for almost every softsynth out there, and some of these are made commercially while others are released for free. Some made by manufacturers, others by users. Hint: If you see patches that were made by Tim Conrardy for any synth ( most of his are free and he has covered quite a few synths ), grab em !! He is a superb programmer. Another example : Synth 1 is a freeware release. It comes with 128 of it's own patches. Quality of these are ok, many are nothing special. There are also about 25 or so additional sets, with some sets containing 128 add on patches. Some of these are excellent, including Tim's. You can store and instantly recall up to 10 additional patch sets in the softsynth interface.

If you are using only software instruments and are going to be doing a lot of tracks, you will need a pretty stout computer. I would recommend a modern Athlon with Windows XP if you're PC based, although a P4 is fine too. I have both, and it seems things run a little smoother on my Athlon machine, and less crashes - better CPU usage vs my P4. Most of the experts I've read or talked to tend to agree. I would avoid a Celeron Cpu if at all possible. I would recommend a minimum of 1024 mb of Ram and at least a mid grade soundcard ( forget the stock one in your machine unless it is of better quality ). Mac was once the standard bearer for audio work, but this is no longer necessarily the case. Also, there are less audio softwares made for the Mac platform these days.

Yes, you can do an entire song, including vocals, in almost any soft based daw or workstation. FL, Sonar, Cubase, CW Home Studio, Logic, Tracktion, Acid pro, etc. All of these support Vst instruments and effects and all have audio / midi recording and editing functions. FL Studio itself opens up as a vst ( or rewire device if you prefer ) in any daw that supports one of those formats.

AJ



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 08-01-2005).]

My PC is quite strong as it has 1024 MB or RAM and it has a AMD Athlon XP 3000 but I do know that the soundcard while being an NVidia was not exactly an expensive one . I do have Windows XP .