Does Roland, Korg, Technics, Ketron, Gensys, etc., have a competitive product matching Yamaha's PSR2000/2100 (price, quantity, value)?
Starkeeper

My experience has shown me that the psr2000 is in a class by itself. Unfortunaly, it is also made like a toy,has virtually NO upgrade support, and is already obsolete(by Yamaha standards) and therefore, cannot be directly compared to similar offerings by other manufacturers.
For about the same money:
Korg PA60 - equal sounds & styles, not as musical in fills, no mic input.
Ketron XD9 - a little more $ - similar in most ways PLUS it has a hard drive and a better harmonizer
Gem - nothing compares to Gem arrangers. IMO, everything is better(not trying to be mean)
Roland - still asleep at the wheel. Nothing worth a $1000 at this time. The cheap stuff won't cut it, and the VA series is much pricier.

If your budget is $1000US .... the psr2000 will give you the most features, but the construction and longevity is in question. It's definatly a home oriented keyboard, and although it sounds very good ..... it's NOT made very well. At least, not up to the rigors of Pro usage. Baby it, and it might last for you, but mine was giving up in it's infancy. The keys and buttons are horrible.

The KORG PA60 is only £200 pounds more here in the UK. It is of a better build quality than the PSR2000.

Graham UK

Dave, Ya gotta stop smackin them keys and buttons with a balpean hammer--it really wrecks them. I'm only playing out two nights a week, but I play a couple hours every night just to keep the gnarled digits on my hands a bit more limber. So far, the 2000 hasn't hiccuped once, all the keys are still as good as the day I opened the box, the buttons are all still functional and operate cleanly. I've heard of a few folks that have broken keys on the 2000, but those same individuals have broken keys on every keyboard they've ever owned.

Though I believe most keyboards are manufactured pretty much the same, mechanically, there are vast differences in the quality of the sounds and versitility, especially for those of us who play for all or part of our total incomes. When it comes to bang for the buck, I'll stick with the Yamaies--I've only had one keyboard failure in more than a decade, and it was nothing more than a cold solder joint that I was able to fix myself.

Good Luck on trying to find something better than the 2000 or 2001, especially in that price category.

Gary

The Ketron XD9 without a hard drive brings the price down by $350.00 to $400.00 .


So ...if a Yamaha PSR2100 is around $1200.00 and an XD9 w compariable features is very close in price .

YOu can add the hard drive later !

Dano

PS....how are the BLUEJAYS going to do this year ?

I like organ sounds and Bluezplayer says the PA80 has excellent organ sounds. Will have to try a PA60. I never tried a Korg arranger, because I always thought they would have techno/dance sounds only (like the Triton), no acoustic/real instrument sounds.
The Yamaha PSR2100 is not obsolete yet.
Ketron dealer in Toronto??
Starkeeper

I'll ammend my statment about the poor key quality on the 2000 to include this:
Of all the keyboards I have EVER tried in ANY price range, INCLUDING cheap, plastic toys ...... The psr2000 is by far, the worst.
If you only play bad feeling instruments, or never have played an acoustic piano or a Rhodes, or a well made, pro keyboard - then this may not affect you, but I really was surprised at how bad the keys were on an instrument that sounded so good. I was very disapointed, and so far .... my decision stands. There are none worse yet.

I have an inexpensive Roland keyboard and the keys feel much nicer than my Yamaha. This affects my playing. I tend to be sloppier, miss notes, or slip off the keys on the Yamaha and not so on the Roland. I believe it has been discussed here before that Yamaha keys are marginally samaller.
Starkeeper

DanO1,
I'm not much of a sports fan so not sure how the Blue Jays will do this year.
Starkeeper

Keep in mind the price of the PSR2000 keeps dropping. You can get one for $925 and up!
Got mine at Christmas time for $955 from music123.com


------------------
I don't steer the ship, I bail out the water.
DJ
http://www.chipos.com/beachbum/

I've always thought this is the department Yamaha always ends up falling short on.. They make such nice keyboards, and the sounds are amazing, and they have a lot of features... However, this comes at at price. They give you all those great sounds and features, but cheese you on the actually construction quality of the keyboard. Take my PSR-550... For the price all one can say is WOW what a nice keyboard, but when you get your hands on it seems hard to put that great sound together with such a cheaply built keyboard. Yes Yamaha's keys are smaller.. They're not really true full size keys. Hell even the Casio's have better keyfeel than the Yamaha.. Also anyone ever use the pitchbend on the 540 or 550???? I swear they must have used the spring from a ball point pen to get it to spring back.. It's sooooo flimsy... I'm just waiting for the day that thing breaks. I was quite pleased with the construction of the PSR-740 (minus the painted buttons).. I felt the wheels, and overall construction was pretty good. I haven't played a 2000 so I cannot comment on the construction on that keyboard. Even for the short time I owned the Casio MZ-2000 I was very pleased with the cosmetics and construction of that keyboard.. It had good key feel, the pitchbend and modulation wheels felt great, and I wasn't afraid of breaking anything on it... Yamaha could improve the build and key feel a little though....

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 04-11-2003).]

I agree with the key feel thing for the 740 / 2000. It is probably the worst I've ever played on too, maybe even worse than that horrible Silvertone organ I had back in the early 70's. It's always a compromise though no matter what I do. The PA80 has a better key feel, and better organ sounds ( for this player anyway ), but sometimes those fill ins... they don't match up well to the main variations. That there are only 2 fills for 4 variation styles doesn't help either. Other than that I still like the PA80 a lot. Still, I wish I had the knowledge and ability to build my own system...

AJ

Your right AJ. I should add the Ekco to my list of possible competitors to the Yamaha PSR2100.
Starkeeper

I don't think the PSR2000 is that bad. I play on it every day, doing close to 600 gigs a year. I own two PSR2000s. I have never had any problem with the keys breaking. Here is a list of the problems I have had:

1. Style control buttons wearing out (requiring greater pressure until they cease to work). This has occurred with both keyboards on practically every style control button. Since it was too time consuming to go to a Yamaha tech every time, I had a friend fix this. He has fixed this problem about four times for about $100.

2. A blown internal amp. This took close to three weeks to fix even though I paid $25 for rush repair. Delay was Yamaha's fault.

3. A blown speaker - distorting at high volumes. After this problem was diagnosed, I took the keyboard home with me while they waited for the replacement speaker. It took over two months for the speaker to arrive.

4. Now the speaker that was just repaired rattles at high volumes. I might have my friend look at this as my authorized repair center is 45 minutes away, while I can just drop the keyboard off around the corner for my friend to look at.

5. Once someone who was transporting my keyboard put a large folding table on top of it. This broke a modulation wheel. I haven't had this looked at yet.

Keep in mind that I put a lot of hours in on these keyboards. Nevertheless, I acknowledge that a keyboard made for professionals would probably have less problems.

Playing professionally and owning two of these keyboards, the flimsiness and repair problems isn't that bad. I am seriously considering that when the PSR2100 comes out I will buy two of them and sell only one of my PSR2000s. This way, I will always have a backup keyboard even when one is getting repaired.

I love the harmonizer on the PSR2000. What other keyboard has a really good harmonizer? The Solton. But Soltons also have a bad reputation for shoddy workmanship and weird glitches. And the Tyros. I need the onboard speakers - and it is a bit expensive for me.

I think the PSR2000 is a fantastic keyboard, and there isn't another keyboard that compares in it's price class.

Beakybird

I have both the pa80 and the PSR2000. I prefer the key feel of the PSR2000. Yes it's soft and mushy, but I like playing it.
I've mentioned this before, and maybe I am the only one in the world with this situation. On my pa80, there is a rough edge to some of the keys. It seems to have occurred in the pressing of the plastic during manufacture. It is along the very front edge. Rather that feeling smooth, certain keys feel rough. I've been tempted to take some fine-gauge sandpaper to these keys. It's quite annoying.

Tom G.

I'll have to add my two cents to this thread. Thank God, my PSR2K has not failed me yet. True, the keys do feel flimsier (?) than many other higher end keyboards. But, I look at it this way: when I play a piano (or a higher-end synth), I need to perform a certain way; when I play my PSR2K, I need to adapt my style and feel, therefore changing the way I play. It's like going from one instrument to another. Each one needs to be played differently. It's just too bad that you'd have to classify a PSR2K and some other keyboard as two totally different instruments. But, IMHO, the sounds are well worth adapting to the feel. (Plus, I baby the H*** out of it!)

Angelo

Well, as some of you might know, I've just purchased a PA60 (Korg) a few weeks ago, I also compared it to the PSR-2000, IMHO the sounds are better on the Korg, So are the styles.
But the Yamaha has more features, Easier user interface.
The Korg is a lot more complicated, Has better keyfeel, better sounds & styles (IMO), But less features.
Also the Ketron XD9 is a fantastic machine with some of the greatest sounds and styles I've ever heard, But here in Holland, The Ketron is pricier, About $400 more than the PSR-2000 and PA60.
That was my POV.

Greetz ,
Marcel

you know, technics is coming out this July with the KN2600- it's the little brother of the kn7000. It has the Sd card and nx sounds, just does not look as cool. It should list for about 1500 or so. Check it out.

Thank you all for replying. So to summarize:
Korg PA60
Ketron XD9
Technics KN2600.
The Ekco will probably be out of this price range.
Starkeeper

benthepianoboy,
Where can I get some info on this new Technics keyboard? I haven't heard anything about this one until your post..

Squeak

well just got a look at both the 2400 and 2600... They look pretty nice.. Anyone know what the 2400 will go for here in the US?

Squeak

There's a post of some time back on the Technics forum about the 2400 and 2600. I think it was Technics Player who had seen/heard them at a recent trade show. As I recall, he stated these boards would have more contemporary styles and features than maybe what Technics had shown in the past.

Technics KN2600 looks good, especially doing away with the floppy drive and allowing digital audio out via USB. However, it does not appear to have a harmonizer (and if it did, I'd want to check it out first, as Technics attemts hat vocal harmony have not been great in the past), so if this is important to you, better wait for more definitive set of information.

EKO is also out of this category - check prices on their web site. It is like building a house - the base price is around $2000, but that buys you only an overpriced PC in a funky case. By the time you add all the important components, like screen, a pushbutton button panel, a slider panel, etc., be prepared to pay twice that much. Plus figure the cost of the software on top of that. Besides, it appears to still be vaporware - an interesting concept which has not yet come to fruition.

I would concur with part of UD's statement, that at this time PSR2000 is in a class by itself. What it lacks in sturdiness and expandability, it more than makes up in the very complete set of features, sounds, and the polished OS. In this it has a solid edge, IMHO, over the Rolands, Korgs, and Ketrons in the similar price bracket. I suspect that even the "low-priced" Technics will be almost twice as expensive as the PSR2000 is today.

One thing that Yamaha has that the others don't is XG. This is powerful stuff. I'm a heavy XG/sysex user and without it I'd feel lost. I agree with UD - the PSR keyboards feel lousy compared to others. I played a KN7000 for about an hour last Sat. and the keys felt really nice by comparison. Lots of features and above all, the organs have touch response. Nice styles too. But no XG and not much in the way of DSPs and effects so it's not for me.

Bryan

Pilot,
How do you use the XG soundset. I don't use the XG voices because they sound plain without any effects, and on the PSR550 you can only apply one effect. Do you need a computer to use it effectively? Do you use XG works software?
Starkeeper

Yes, the ORGAN Panel voices on the PSR 2000 do NOT have touch response but then again the XG ORGAN voices on the PSR 2000 do. Not much of a pacifier but there is at least some consolation to know that the XG Organs have touch response which comes in very handy for certain songs especially in a live situation where it counts the most. And the nice thing is that many of the XG Organs are right up there in quality as compared to the Panel Organs. One thing I've noticed though is I have to crank up the volume some when using the XG Organs versus the Panel Organs.

And yes, I agree that the PSR 2000 is the best bang for the buck right now and I also agree that the Key feel is very mushy and flimsy and I pray to God that Yamaha starts making their Arrangers with TRUE full size Keys like Korg and some of the others do. My fingers are normal in size I would guess but things get very tricky sometimes when playing my PSR 2000 especially on certain more difficult chordings and faster tempo'd songs. I can imagine a person with thicker fingers going nuts trying to play some fast Ragtime or any other real fast song with complicated chordings on Yamaha's Portable Arrangers. PS: Yamaha could have very easily incorporated TRUE full size Keys on the Tyros with all that extra empty space on the left and right of it. Also, it sure looks like the Tyros is an Arranger in need of speakers with all that extra empty space they managed to give it. Okay, okay, I'll stop. Yes Yammie I really do like your Arrangers but there is always room for improvement, right? And speakers too. Just joking. You can tell what I am hoping for on your next high end Arranger can't you.

Steve, if you read this try and put in a good word if you can to your product developers as to what is really important in the eyes of most Arranger Keyboardists imo, that is: TRUE full size keys, onboard Speakers, BETTER Key feel and response and of course there is a host of others things that time does not permit me to delve into right now but those three things I listed are at the top of the heap I can assure you.

Best regards,
Mike

Pilot,
I checked out "Total Keyboard" book on Friday at Indigo/Chapters ($9.95 CDN) and it is very basic, for beginners. I passed on it. Has a chord dictionary, don't need that either. Looking for intermediate instructions, especially accompaniment.
Starkeeper

While we're "pickin'" on the 2000's features, etc. I'll add to the notion that it's "plastic" in comparison to others. I recently added it to my setup, mainly for the price, styles, and positive features it offers. I've not been disappointed. However, one thing that surprised me (in comparison to my 6500)----you can't tweak the rhythm section after a tune is recorded into the sequencer, unless I'm missing something. That's important in a recording environment. After you've recorded an auto-rhythm track (song), then you decide the bass part is too loud, drums, or whatever---you can't adjust the levels of individual parts after it's in the sequencer! You've got to make adjustments and re-record the whole song again. If there's an easier way, someone please explain.

There's got to be a way to do what you asking with recorded songs. I can do this on my PSR-550, and I know you can even do this with the PSR-740.. What you're wanting to do should be under the "mixer" settings. I know on the 740 there was a dedicated mixer button.. On my 550 the mixer button is next to the "voice change" button.. Check in your manual under using the mixer..

Squeak

Starkeeper, I use only the XG organs on the 740 as the panel organs don't have touch response, just like the 2000. I can layer 2 voices on the keyboard (R1 and R2) which is often good enough but with XG I can layer up to 18 (but usually only 3 or 4). For this I use XGworks and I've updated all the tables for the 740 (and 2000) to give me access to the whole synth - 5 DSPs and all the voices and effects. I run the whole thing from the laptop for portability. I just save all the settings to a .syx file which is instantly loadable and that gives me a lot more settings than I can store in the registration memories. You can probably use XGworks straight out of the box with your machine as it doesn't have all the DSPs. Or a cheaper way to go would be XGEdit which does all the sysex but isn't a sequencer. It's shareware so you can download and try it. There's a link to it in the Yamaha Zone of Synth Zone.

Sorry you didn't like the book. I'm not exactly a beginner myself but I thought it was a nice book to own. It's good for showing to visitors who think they would like to learn a keyboard.

Idatrod, I measured my two PSRs and my grand piano. Five octaves is 33 inches on the piano and 32 1/2 on the PSRs. I can't tell the difference. I can stretch an eleventh on both and it feels just the same.

Bryan

Hi Bryan,

You must have fairly narrow "slim" fingers I am guessing. The real trouble does not lie on the front part of the keys, ie., before you reach the black key area. The main problem lies in the black and white key area, ie., the white key area within the black key area. Those 2 extra millimeters (approximately) could mean the difference between an excellent rendition/performance or a mediocre one. I realize some Keyboardist's probably don't even play within the black/white key area but if you notice most if not all of your professional, ie., "world class" Keyboardist's do. I am sure there would be far less of them if they had to play within the constraints of Yamaha's less than true full size Keys of their portable Keyboards. PS: A 1/2 inch for 5 octaves states my point. I mean, the Keys are not made of ivory so I don't see why Yammie is penny pinching on Key size. It doesn't make sense. I am not trying to be sarcastic toward Yamaha because I enjoy my PSR 2000 as much as the next person who owns one and Yamaha makes great Keyboards no question but if nobody ever raised their voice expressing their opinions on ways to make a product better and more advantageous not only to Yamaha in possible product sales increases, ie., "a better product will sale more and stymie the competition in the process", but in better satisfaction and enjoyment for their customers. My next Keyboard besides having 76 Keys, onboard speakers, at least 128 note polyphony (preferably 256 or more), and besides a host of other must's, it must also have TRUE full size keys. If that means jumping ship, so be it, although I would like to stay with Yamaha if at all possible because of some of their other great features and quality sounds, but only if they start making true full size keys on their Arrangers.

(True full size keys is like High Speed Internet. Once you have a taste of it you never want to go back to using dial up).

Forgive my ranting but if nobody spoke up about anything the wheel would of never been invented either and we would still be living in the dark ages.

Best regards,
Mike

Mike

I have fairly large hands as I can play tenths like most folks play octaves and my fingers are commensurate in size. (I can play the opening bars of Rachmaninoff's second concerto as straight chords if that means anything to you). I have no trouble playing between the black keys on the PSR-740 so I never really thought about the key size. Wonder what the key size on a piano accordion is - must be smaller than a keyboard.

Bryan

Hey Guys and Gals,
Before you jump ship, and spend a lot of money, you may want to spend some time with a tape measure and measure todays 76 key keyboards. Then measure a brand new grand piano, and measure your present keyboard. In most instances, the key size is identical--the only difference is the space between the keys or clearance, which is about 1/1000 of an inch greater in the grand piano than a 72 key Roland I measured last night with a micrometer. The keyboard keys were identical in size and height. I talked with a performer about this last night, a guy who has played with the Ink Spots, and lots of other well-known, big-band groups. His response was "I can't tell the difference. If there's a difference, I sure as hell don't know about it." This guy has been playing professionally for more than 50 years. If he can't feel the difference, I doubt seriously that anyone can!

Cheers,

Gary

Thanks Gary and Bryan for your reponses. This is an interesting debate and it has been brought up on the SynthZone on more than one occasion.

After posting my message yesterday I decided to do a little further investigating. I scooted on down to GC today and checked out a few Keyboards they had on display to compare the Key sizes. With my trusty measuring tape that measures down to a 32nd of an inch I carefully analyzed, scrutinized and measured the Keys of a PSR 2000, a Korg PA-80, a Korg SP-500, a Korg Triton and I also played several other different models from Roland, Yamaha, and Korg, eg., Motif, S90, Roland FP3 and FP5, Korg Karma, Triton Pro X, Yamaha DGX-500 athough I only played them briefly to get an idea of how the area inside the black and white key area was, to compare them.

Okay, on to the measurements. The only two real comprehensive measurements were of the PSR 2000 and the Korg PA-80. The Korg SP-500 (88 Key Hammer Action) was next down the list. The PSR 2000, (and Steve Deming can correct me if I am wrong), was as follows: The area between the black keys "F#, G#, A#, ie., "inside the black and white area", was 9/16"[14.2875mm]. Between C# and D# was 5/8"[16mm]. The distance of E and F (including the "space") was 1 3/32"[27.78125mm]. B and C would be the same as E and F of course. The actual Key width was 27/32"[21.43125mm]

The Korg PA-80 is as follows: Between black keys F#, G#, A# was 19/32"[15.08125mm]. Between C# and D# was 21/32"[16.66875mm]. The distance between E and F (including the "space") was 1 5/32"[29.36875mm] B and C would be the same respectfully. The actual Key width was 29/32"[23.01875mm]

I noticed that the Korg Arranger Key size on the SP-500 was actually 1/32"[0.79375mm] wider than the Korg Triton's key size. Why Korg would do that is anybody's guess. I assume it's because the Triton is a Synth and the SP-500 is a 88 key Graded Hammer Action Keyboard. But it only goes to demonstrate that Korg's Arrangers are geared more toward the true Professional musician whilst Yamaha's Arrangers seemed to be geared more toward younger children, students, teens, and the Home Hobbyist. Not the serious Professional.

I will say this. I believe one of the reasons it is more difficult for me to Play within the black and white key area of the PSR 2000 is because of the very poor/mushy/flimsy key action. Putting my index finger between F# and G#, etc., and pushing the white key down almost always results in either F# or G# or both, etc., to also move "downward" which could possibly result in an unwanted clash of sound if they depressed so far as to evoke an unwanted note while playing live or whenever. When playing the Korg PA-80 and especially the SP-500 doing the same key press resulted in neither of the sharps; F#, G#, etc., to budge. And that is because of the superior Key action/response of the Korg's. I think I could bear with the PSR 2000's smaller key size if it weren't for the fact that playing within the black and white area the sharps and many times the adajacent naturals; B, C, etc., will depress when I don't want or intend for them to while playing. (That IS the main reason I am raising this issue although the actual Key size is another). Again these things happen because of the smaller size keys. And my fingers are normal size even tending toward "thin" in my estimation. Bryan, you say your hands are on the large side. That could also mean they are 'Long' not necessarily 'big around' which I think is what you are saying. Someone who has 'big around' fingers, would of necessity have to play on the end of the white Keys and would probably find it next to impossible to play within the black and white key area of the PSR 2000 because of the smaller key size and the flimsy, mushy, key action. Of course there is nothing wrong in doing that but it would be harder to play complex chords, progressions and arrangements imo if a person just played on the end of the white keys, ie., "outside the black and white key area".

On a positive note. Both the PSR 2000 and Korg PA-80's "Black/Sharp" key width was the same size which I believe all Sharp keys on all Keyboards have been standardized. I could be wrong about that though.

Any who, because I want to be more than just a home hobbyist, (which I am already btw , in my musical pursuit/career I deem it necessary upon purchasing my next Arranger Keyboard, to buy one that is more geared toward the professional musician and of course it must have true full size keys, be it from Yamaha, Korg, Roland, or whoever. But in the mean time I still enjoy my PSR 2000 immensely with all of its fantastic sounds and other features. And when I play in a live situation I try to be extremely careful in my playing if need be, paying extra attention and detail to finger positioning, which btw I shouldn't have to! Enough said.

Best regards to all,
Mike

Out of curiosity I watched myself playing. I noticed that because of my long fingers and the fact that my thumb is much shorter than the rest, my second and third fingers tend to turn sideways when playing between the black keys. Maybe that's why I have no difficulty there. That also answers an old question of mine as to why I always had difficulty in playing some of the fast twiddly bits. I'm not striking the keys as accurately as I should. I'm surprised I didn't notice it before. Another interesting fact - the space between the C# and D# keys on my keyboards is a lot bigger than on the piano which has more even spacing - as you also discovered while measuring.

Bryan