Hello

Thought you people could update me on how much I ought to be charging on different types of gigs as to type and time involved. Any real good prospecting ideas on how to sniff out work. And how about negotiating the price. Getting and keeping the gig. Making deals for steady work etc....

I have mainly been taking work that just comes to me mostly from exposure selling Lowrey organs, teaching and exposure as organ concert artist/clinician.

I live in Pensacola, Florida and do not sing, but, I sometimes play chords with my left hand on the PSR2000 and right hand trumpet(the real one you have to blow). I've also considered pulling out my soprano sax and playing along to midi files.

Thanx for input as always.

Scott Langholff

Scott L: From my own personal experience, I can definitely tell you that if you sing(while playing the kb), that it will greatly increase your gig earning potential ! Singing somehow commands & holds the listener's (audience) attention 'a lot' more than performing an instrumental set only. I strongly urge you to seriously consider investing time to develop your pipes (voice lessons?).

As far as rates go, first find out what the 'going rate' in your area is for people doing similar gigs (nursing homes, retirement communities, clubs, weddings, etc). Start your rates at the lower end of the spectrum to attract/build up clientele. If you aren't already established or known in your area, approach a suitable venue and offer to play for a first time intro rate (such as 1/2 of your normal rate), but do NOT play for free (even for the first time) to potential paying clients. I've found this technique usually doesn't work out. I reserve free playing only for legitimate non profit fund raising benefits & events and for family/friends. I recommend establishing and charging all similar type client venues the same rate because nothing is worse than one client finding out you charged more/less than the other guy. Consider rasing your rates only after you've established yourself in your area = your gig schedule is fully booked for a month, and you can afford to turn away work. Honestly, integrity, promptness, and an outgoing friendly attitude will bring you respect and subesequently bring more work and more $. After playing a potential ongoing venue a couple of times, I strongly recommend you sign a mutual business contract to protect both parties. I also insist on written & signed contracts and receiving a non refundable deposits for wedding, anniversary party & corporate gigs as well. I hope these suggestions help. I'm sure other pros out there (Uncle Dave, Donny, DonM, Mario, etc) will have other suggestions as well. Good luck.

Scott

All good points Scott, but I disagree about a free audition. I have never shyed away from a free sample to showcase my act in the clients "home area" and it has NEVER come up dry. When you are unknown to a client, it's a great offer of good faith to do a sample set or two so you can all get the feeling of how you fit in THAT situation. After you are established, this is not as important because clients can come and hear you somewhere else. Until you are set in a regular schedule, I see no down side to a few auditions to get your name out there.

I quote a price, and tell the client that if I am asked back .... they pay the rate. Period. If they are not happy with the price - too bad. I walk. They almost always give it a try IF they like the show. You have to earn the right to stay at a job, but you usually have the advantage in the beginning, if the client likes your work.

I intentionally price myself above a lot of my competitors, because I think I'm worth it. Once you work cheap .... you can't go back very easy. Establish an act - set a price, and then get out there and sell it, man! Let the repeat business speak FOR you. The best advertisement for an entertainer is a happy client as a reference. Hand out lots of cards, and send out contracts the same day you get the call back.
Be aggressive ... your competition will be!

I disagree with you Uncle Dave because in another recent post you said you charged $150 for the majority of your nightly gigs which is what ordinary sidemen have charged for decades. If that's more than your competition charges, you need to move to a better market.

Singing is overrated as are many singers... entertainment value and professionalism is what counts when you go after classier venues that are able to pay more than your regular beer bars. I charge more as an instrumentalist than my singing competitors, but I look and sound like a very expensive act and people expect to pay more for that. Nobody ever expected to pay less for Liberace than Hank Williams just because one of them sang... it's a matter of the market and your personal marketing.

I purposely located myself in an area that has a lot of resorts and establishments that cater to an upper-income market, then worked on my image and presentation to outclass my established competition and went after their gigs aggressively. Taking over the nightly gig market then allowed me access to the area's private party market. If you want to swim with the sharks, you gotta have an appetite...

Actually . . . BOTH Liberace and Hank sang. Though Liberace was more famous for his keyboard skills and campy style, he wisely added singing to his act as well. His vocal rendition of: "I'll Be Seeing You" which he sang at the end of all his weekly television shows, is perfect testament to how effective adding singing to your show can be.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Pro:
[B]I disagree with you Uncle Dave because in another recent post you said you charged $150 for the majority of your nightly gigs
++++++++++++++++++++++
$150 a night & there is UD trying to convince us he is a pro, well maybe by name but not by earnings.
Better get a proper job

I don't think Dave is trying to convince anybody of anything. He has supported his family for many, many years as a full-time entertainer, as I have also. He is trying to be helpful and to answer the question.
I know that he averages far more than $150 per night.
DonM

I don't know how all this financial news centered around me, but the $150 price is an average for club dates only. that's not even half of my years work. The private parties are where I make my real money. The clubs are just a place to hone my skills and meet clients. My average prices are well above all my friends, so whatever you're thinking .... don't pity me for not having enough cash. I do more than OK. No other musician in this area makes more than I do.

Some of you guys crack me up. I've been doing this full time since 1969. Even before I was done school I was playing in clubs and at parties. Most of the "legit" players in the union don't make what I do. If I took a gig as a pit player in a broadway show ... it'd be a pay cut, so don't tell me what determines a "pro" salary please.

I offer my advice here to spread some of the tips I've learned the hard way, so the younger players won't learn the same dumb way I did. If you guys with your "proper" jobs want to critisize my craft or my business principles, call me - I'll tell you all about my life. Until you know the inside scoop - please don't assume to know my situation. Music has been a very successful carreer for me because I work my butt off. It isn't easy - an it isn't even POSSIBLE for alot of the players out there. It's show BUSINESS ..... remember the BUSINESS part.
No one pays for the art ... they buy a service and it better be good. I sell service .... at a very good price(for ME) in a very pleasing sonic package.



[This message has been edited by Uncle Dave (edited 09-07-2002).]

Hello UD,
I have never read a review of one of your gigs where the 'attendee's' were not bowled over by your performance. From the few samples and mp3's of your work I have heard I curse my bad fortune for living so far away that I may never get to see you perform live. It is this talent that makes you a true pro and maybe that is what prompted such sour replies to your post.

The fact that you obviously earn enough to support your family AND change keyboards five or six times a year seems to have gone unnoticed

ttfn
Tony

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If sometimes I am over-dressed I make up for it by always being immensly over-educated.

Thanx Tony,
I hate to have to defend myself to people that don't even know me. Seems a bit immature, don't ya think?
Thanx to my Cajun pal, Don too. You guys are the greatest.
It's nice to have people in your corner.

If anyone is keeping score ... I worked 4 hours at a beautiful poolside engagement party, ten minutes from my house today. Ate 5 star food and had top shelf drinks at my disposal. I got a measly $900 bucks for my sweat. Hardly pays the cleaning bills.
Maybe I should look into that "proper" job.

They also contracted Dec 28th. That's a tough night to book. The Saturday between Christmas & New Years .... who throws parties then? Oh well ...... guess I'll muddle through that one too.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tony W:
[B]Hello UD,
I curse my bad fortune for living so far away that I may never get to see you perform live.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You know what. It is amazing how you can make the above statement and at the same time expect to form an a honest considered opinion

Johnnie,
I fail to see what warped logic brings you to conclude that the above statement makes me either dishonest or affects my objectivity.

Your post are often critical and never constructively so. Your initial post to this thread added nothing to the subject in hand and was only designed to insult. That is very considered and honest I suppose?

I want to apologise to Scott Langholff, it seems Scott that your thread has been hijacked by this.

Best wishes
Tony

Uncle Dave: you made the point that you charged $150 for your "nightly" gigs in another post and then said you charged more than your competitors in this thread. I brought that up as a minor and rather amusing point to a larger and more important point, but of course you and your fans here took up the bloody defense banner because your name might have been mentioned in vain. None the less, the topic is how much to charge so any on-topic post should be welcomed, unless you are way too vain to take a bow shot from others here that might be just as experienced as you for all you know.

I have over 32 years of solid pro experience and I am trying to contribute just as much to the discussion of arranger keyboards and professional performing as anybody here. And so far I think I've done so in an intelligent and factual manner, even if I take a poke at some of you long-timers with your own words. But this group can be ridiculously sensitive to bruises for any discussion group on the web. If you don't want anyone to poke fun at you for $150/gigs, don't put that information out here. It wasn't required, and in fact the person who started that particualr thread wasn't looking for $ amounts anyway but percentages of types of gigs.

And if someone like UD chooses to post their earnings, there's no need to rally to his defense if I or anyone else wants to take a shot at him for the sake of discussion... let him take his own lumps if he's as established and all-pro as you guys and he think. A little provocation can make for a more interesting conversation, rather than the same old "oh I've done it this way for years blah blah blah".

UD isn't the real subject here but his $150/nightly-club statement should be. I think that figure is about average for this business, and that is a shame because as I said earlier that figure hasn't changed much in two decades except for those who have stepped out of the mold. So perhaps we should talk about stepping out of the mold. Any takers?

(Please note: this may turn from a cocktail party to a football scrimmage without notice, please dress appropriately)

I will come to the defense of anyone, including the Pro, just as I would one of my immediate family, if I feel they were misunderstood. Play nice guys, we're all on the same team.
DonM

It's been more than 20 years since the "club circuit" has been considered a viable place to earn a living in the music business. Today's working professional has to diversify in order to survive, and the "outside" (private/corporate) is where all the real money is. The private parties are definitely the highest share of the money market, and that is where my income comes from. The club dates are a small part of the package that pay a few bills and keep my chops in shape. It's also a "meeting ground" for clients.

While $150 doesn't seem like much money to some ... it really is about average for the kind of work I specified, and way more than you get in certain parts of the country. (USA, that is) I could probably live on my private parties, but it would be a stretch, so I prefer to keep the "business" aspect of Show Biz as active as I can. By doing a wide assortment of jobs (including my recording studio) I have managed to stay full time and still squeak ahead a little at a time over the years.

As far as "The pro" is concerned:
I guess that because your name suggests professionalism, we are just supposed to buy that. I looked at your profile and got no name or no email address. So, I don't really know what to think. A professional entertainer would take every opportunity to advertise his name and how to get hold of him as well. Why so secretive? Are you afraid someone might actually contact you?

I agree that this is a place for discussion, but it has become much more than that for many of us. The closeness that some of us share has bled over into our personal lives and we truly care about one another. You seem to have an "icy" edge to all your comments, and it isn't necessary. You can let your guard down here ... it's a safe haven for musicians at ALL levels to join in the discussion. The pros help the novices, and the novices help the pros. We're all the same on many ways, so take a step back and try to get to know some of the good people that you are talking to. You'll enjoy the time much more.

I realize it's pretty safe to just stay anonymous and spew out all kinds of advice about every subject but if you open your self to the possibility of a TWO WAY conversation among friends .... you'll get more out of the forum. That's the way I see it anyway.

Concerning money - I rarely like to talk about it. I have shared that info with very few people outside my family and the fact that I shared it here was a testament to the value of this forum. I tried to show the readers that it IS possible to make some real money in the local music scene. It's a hard business, but it IS possible if you do it right. We are truly trying to help each other. It's not a place to SHOWCASE your knowledge. It's a place of true concern and caring. We all know a lot about a lot, in WHATEVER areas. I've gotten many tips from home users that help me in my daily work. Let's drop the "PRO" facade and share the MUSIC.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Uncle Dave:
Let's drop the "PRO" facade and share the MUSIC


Now that is really rich coming from someone who is always going on about being a pro

This is what I will never understand! Why would you (or anyone) want to take a shot anyway? By all means post that you do not agree with a point of view but in this case it was not just that was it? You set out to beat Dave with his own words and in the event did so entirely out of context. Dave was offering his advice to Scott L and you seemed unable to offer any UNTIL you had belittled Daves. Maybe you thought that trashing someone else's opinion would make your own appear stronger?

I am not saying that your advice to Scott was not valid or even good advice. What I am saying is that it was not enhanced any by your 'shot' at Daves advice.

Even your quote above cannot just say...."Let Dave fight his own battles" without you adding the inference that Dave may not be the Pro we all think he is. That just comes across as sour. If you don't like the man or his 'persona' then that is fine. However let your opinions and arguments stand on their own merit. Taking cheap shots at anothers advice for whatever reason will not promote your point of view effectively.

It is not just you Pro. It seems that this 'take a shot culture' is everywhere at the moment. It used to be that even if we did not agree with each other threads were always continued with the premise that there was a basic respect for the person or people behind the post. It seems these days that it is more important to provoke a response than to actually help and understand each other effectively.




All that padding can't be good for the figure. I'll stand at the side and sip me gin thanks.

Tony



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If sometimes I am over-dressed I make up for it by always being immensly over-educated.

Hey Johnny,
I am proud of my accomplishments in the world of performance art. Are you happy with YOUR job?

When I started to post in this forum, I was already a frequent visitor for many months. This forum never ceassed to surprise me, in the sense that I feel very "at home", here, when I expected a decrease of my interest with time. For an amateur like me, the forum has been an extremely valuable source of information and, well beyond, a very warm place to be, with a very friendly atmosphere. I like very much to call it "warm" even if friction episodes or bitter words appear from time to time. They are normal conflicts of personalities, but occupy a very small room here, in comparison with all that we learn here (my feeling, at least...).

The distinction between a "pro" and an "amateur" has never been very clear to me. It separates people more according to, weather or not they make a(n exclusive) living of music, than according the money they charge for their acts. Personally, I DO NOT CARE who's pro or amateur in this forum. I know that this is a "cliché", but I feel that I can learn with almost everybody. Maybe this
is so because I'm totally relaxed in what concerns music: I make a living from teaching maths in a small portuguese university.

Each of us has its own strategy of pricing our services and have our own ideas of how to prospect and to get jobs. I have tried some of the ideas of Scott Yee, Dave and The Pro and will tell my results. But I must warn you: I'm not a typical musician and I come from an untypical country in this forum with an untypical music market. And although I have some schollar musical background (well above average in the area where I live) I have little experience in entertaining (4 years, but I'm really going slowly at a rather relaxed pace). In addition the music
market is very limited around here (this is a poor region of a relatively poor european country), and people don't really value a quality performance/entertainment. The bookings are very seasonal and much more achieved by people networks than by quality of the act. The "Pro" strategy, although theorically a valid one, doesn't apply to my case. Nevertheless I try to be careful about my image and presentation but am conscious that my audiences might give the extra value for the "wrong" reasons: they tend to judge me more by my appearence than by my musical/entertaining act. Oh well...

I started four years ago with low rates (the lower end of the spectrum), just like Scott Yee suggested. Very wise strategy. I also considered two ways of presenting myself:

- play for half of the rate (1st time)
- play for free (1st time)

They are both good ideas, but the second one proved to provide better results, maybe because of cultural reasons. Here people expect you to play free, but I only do it once (exceptions with friends). I usually get more jobs from these freebies.

I never work with contracts, but I wouldn't recommend anyone to do the same. Things in the USA are surely different, and contracts are mandatory. Maybe I've been lucky, maybe I'm in a very relaxed position in what concerns music, but I like to trust and I like people trust me. I never regretted it.

I always have cards with me when in a job and I agree with Scott Yee: a friendly attitude, flexibility, honesty count a lot in building respect and trust. In private parties, some audiences like to participate and sing along with me. I am very permissive and flexible to that (contrary to many of my collegues, from what I hear...) and feel that my reputation as an entertainer gains a lot with that practice. Here there are many possibilities of getting jobs for private parties, but one of the best is to have excellent personal relations with places that host these parties. Owners of rural houses that host weddings, for example. They will recommend you to potencial costumers if they like your work. I give a special treatment to all of these who chain their costumers to my entartaining services.

Steady work is difficult to find here (people network play a major role), specially when you're not born "in town" (I come from the south of Portugal and came to the north just for the work) but it was never an important issue for me (it's not my first occupation).

About money: I would never agressively ask you what your earnings are (not polite, not polite..), but of course, I'm curious of having a crude idea. I was a bit surprised of UD's rates. They are close to (slightly higher than) the rates here (mine included), despite all the differences in the cultural and night life scene. The only significant differences occur in the small/medium dinner-dances (much less here: around $200/$250). The musical act is normally payed by the house who hosts the party and not by the participants (not directly, at least).

Hope to keep reading your useful inputs in this "warm place"...

-- José.

_________________________________
Davey
I know only too well my station in life & one of my achievements is that I have never tried to pretend that I am something I am not.

I have played music with some of the best musicians (artistic ability) there are but they just went about their job quietly & never ever tried to brag as to how good a pro they were

Now if you want to carry on believing that you are some special kind of professional & in reality you are really only a one man band why keep bragging about it.

When we all post on the forums we all put ourselves up for people to have a pop at us so we should be prepared for it to happen & not be scared of criticism so that it makes us delete our thread or just go off in a huff

Scott L:
After all that has been said, let me throw my five cents in. After 35 years in this profession, one thing stands clear for me. Once you are established in a community it is very important to charge uniform prices for your services.
Regardless of their decision, people will respect you for it and value your self worth in a professional manner. All those gigs that you lose because people are not willing to pay your price, are more than
offset by those that do. Because the moment the word gets out that you are willing to bargain for your services people will expect you to do better for them every time; and ultimately you will end up working for "peanuts"; they will be under the impression that you are in dire need of the work. You may not work as often as you'd like, but then again, is time you could use for other things that are important in your life.
At 60 years old I am picky about my gigs and I refuse to work for less than what I think I am worth. I could be working twice as much as I do now but I don't want to if it is unpleasant work for me and don't pay me what I feel am worth. I also understand that many folks in this business don't have that luxury, but if you want to be happy at what you do and make a living at it, then this is what I recommend to anyone.
Once you prove your worth, let the community know it and they will gladly pay for it, almost always.
Good giggin!
Mario

You never answered my question. Are you happy as a printer? As for that idiotic comment above ..... you are sooooo wrong. Better just quit now.

Hey !!! Chill Out johnnie.c ......

Nothing more to say

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Uncle Dave:
As for that idiotic comment above .....
____________________________________

I'm sorry I must be mistaken but I was always under the impression that you worked alone

To both Tony W. and Uncle Dave: it's real simple... you guys are not the Synth Zone BBS police or even the official critics. It's not your-way-or-the-highway. Why would I want to take a shot at UD? WHY NOT? There are more ways to enjoy a discussion than to sit by and be warm, fuzzy and dull. Your posts are full of advice on personal relationships and sipping gin when the fact is I don't play that way, in life or here. Does that mean I have less to contribute? Not at all. As to why I don't share my identity Uncle Dave, it's not a prerequisite and therefore simply none of your business in my humble "icy" opinion. This isn't some kind of "guard" or whatever other frame of reference you need to understand me... you are talking to the very real me, and since we are having a conversation (unless you choose to stop reading, which is your perogative), I need not join your brotherhood. I'm hear to talk about business rather than worry about mannerisms and fraternal bonding.

And that brings me back to this topic and a subject near and dear to me: how to entertain an audience as a side-effect. Last night in addition to my regular wages I made $50 in tips, all in singles and fives. What's surprising is this: I don't put out a tip jar and I very rarely even play requests. The money came from people laying the money on my keyboard as I played, half of it from children sent up by their parents.

My approach to entertaining is my own. Some time ago, I laid aside all the crappy songs that I'd played for too long and gave up on entertaining anyone but myself. This is a very negative professional attitude (in the minds of some) and likely won't work for Tony and his gin bottle or anyone else with a successful stage show already in place that relies on audience endearment. My voice was dying and never was very good, but I had enough of singing partners who contributed little more than the honor of the presence to the gig, so I decided to try things my way for once. I chunked my songlist and started over with instrumental cover versions of popular songs that I REALLY LIKED vs. the stuff/junk/burnt covers I usually get requests for. Most people ask for songs they have heard in the past in live music environments, forcing a sort of hive mentality on musicians: they all play the same thing within their genres. To make a long story short: I now play my favorite songs from all eras... the music that I always wished I could hear played live by someone. To maintain marketability, I try to choose things that are recognizable but chosen according to my taste, like "Kiss From A Rose" by Seal, "Dessert Rose" by Sting, or my own ultra-contemporary version of Seals & Crofts "Summer Breeze", and an acid-jazz version of "Pure Imagination" from the movie Willie Wonka and The Chocolate Factory. I also do some twisted beautiful versions of "Misty" and "Moon River" that are totally unique. The entire idea was to take a chance on pleasing myself first and foremost and hoping audiences would share in that pleasure.

It worked. At least it has so far. People are secretly craving a real change of pace. I am often asked why I have no tip jar: that's because I am already well-paid and I say so. It also goes with my state of mind: I came to play my music, my way, and if you didn't leave when I didn't play "Brown-Eyed Girl" then that's all the gratuity I need. Many of my counterparts are surprised this works at all but really, by offering a real alternative to what they do, it's not that surprising.

Just for thought...

That was very well spoken. Best of luck in your approach, but around here - it just wouldn't fly. I'm glad it works for you.

Thank you Uncle Dave. My concept didn't fly in my area either, until somebody tried it.

Hi Pro,

Interesting statement......... Mmmmmmh.

I don't play out very much, but I too decided recently to play mostly what I like.

Kiss from a Rose and Desert Rose are a couple of my favorite songs. Do you have any recordings you wouldn't mind sharing with us?
I would love to hear your interpretations.

Thanks

Eric

Pro!
Is your style "I play what I love in a way I love and the people who like it ...ask me back. And it works!

I think UD's and some of the others have the approach of finding out what the Audience Loves and catering to that ...and finding that very profitable.

Both approaches work... right? You mentioned money from tips as an example... same as UD gave examples...

I think there are SHOWMEN, proformers, musicians, ect... and I would probably classify you as a musician since you don't sing and you don't give a DAMN about whether people like you HERE(forum) or on the job... at least I get that from your writing... If I'm misunderstanding you...please explain ...so I can understand.

The really good showmen seem to project a personality and chrisma ...and give the sense that "they like people" or "treat the audience as friends or insiders" ... I think UD seems to have those qualities here... and you don't. Now I don't agree with UD or others here all the time... But I respect their opinions. I made the mistake a few days ago of taking something someone said personally ... and I was wrong...and admitted that to the person.
We all make mistakes.

Eric: I will work on a way to share some of my music, perhaps through private email.

rgtaa: I don't fully understand your question, so let me explain a little more about how I think and see if that helps.

I have no doubt as to Uncle Dave's ability (and it's unfair to him to use him as an example but he'll have to do for the sake of discussion) and I'm assuming he is a terrific performer: probably nice looking, a multi-talented keyboardist and singer with an established fan base, a nice family, a really swell guy. There are several swell guys like this in my area today and they enjoy their many blessings quite openly. Now I have to compete with lots of swell guys in their own market, and I don't sing and I'm not the best looking type either, so I'm at a disadvantage right away. It would be suicide to go head to head against swell guys playing what they do to their crowds, not like I want to anyway. All I got is bone-deep keyboard ability and unmitigated gall.

So yeah, I decided to take the attitude that I have a better idea: I could outperform and outclass my competition, not by playing what they played but by playing what they didn't or couldn't. And do it right. Some of the swell-guy employers liked the idea of something different and took a chance on me. Then the reviews came in, and people really liked my music... especially people who wanted an alternative to the swell-guy crowd. A press review in my city's paper that called me "the Jimi Hendrix of keyboards", not because I played rock but because I was doing something innovative and unique (their words).

Life is easy for people who are multi-talented, and it shows in their demeanor and acceptance of the way life is at times. I'm not one of the lucky ones, so if I upset their serenity with a few unexpected challenges, it's completely intentional. Call it not giving a damn or whatever, I call it making a living with the few tools I was given.

An afterthought for rgtaa: I guess I don't cater to my audience, if that's what you're asking. They typically ask for what other performers they've heard play and I don't play that. Of course, those who have heard me and know what I play find favorites in my songlist that they can ask for and I oblige.

Pro!
Great response!
Thanks for clarifing your ideas ...you seem to be able to assess the situation and Play your ACES to your advantage ... from what you write.

I guess you are just advocating alternative way of looking at proforming and club work... you gave me something to think about.


rgtaa

I don't like to sound skeptical but I think the person who dubs himself as "The Pro" is full of "Barbra Strisand". When someone toots their own horn that much I get wary. 50 bucks in tips, in one night by not taking any requests and only playing what he likes stretches the limits of belief. I think the only market that will give him 50 bucks in tips is the market that exists in his own mind.

Enough of us actually know Uncle Dave and Donny and Don and Scott Yee and some of the others to know that what they say is true. We know where they live and where they play. We have seen and heard them.

Mr. Pro, Where can we hear you perform? Why don't you post some of your music on the net for all of us to hear? Do you have another day job? Do you have a real name? You might be on the level but I have my doubts.

Tom

Tom!
Are you suggesting that THE PRO ...take off his Mask and reveal himself!
Sounds good to me!
Come out of the Closet PRO!
Don't be a Closet PRO!
rgtaa

As a funny aside!
Imagine if THE PRO really was Elton John or someone like that!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tom Cavanaugh:
[B]I don't like to sound skeptical but I think the person who dubs himself as "The Pro" is full of "Barbra Strisand". When someone toots their own horn that much I get wary.
___________________________________________
Now we are getting down to the nuts & bolts .Just because someone joins in but happens to have an alternative point of view then the fan club decide it can't happen and this guy Pro can't be real because he sounds too good to be true so he must be telling some untruths that is what is being implied here.
I think that some of you fan club guys need to take time out & look back at some of your own old posts & reflect on some of the past statements that have been made concerning self importance

I'm not Elton John, though I play some of his music on tv (if my keyboard is hooked up to it). And the issue for me is privacy and my right to it. There's nothing to hide. Believe what I've said or don't... $50 in tips is neither unusual or worth lying about.

By the time you read this, both Tom and Eric should be getting an email sample of my live music, and rgtaa: well like me, you didn't list your email address so you get no surprise.

Pro,
Believe it or not I would agree with some of your comments. I think there is always a place for inovative performers challenging the popular and accepted genres of the time. If there are not artists willing to take the risk then any art form becomes stale.

I also agree that all any of us can do is to make the best of what we have and run with it. However, (I bet you knew that was coming ) what constantly underlies your posts, (in this thread at least), is your complete antipathy to anything or anyone who in your opinion fit your 'swell guy' performer model.

You seem to be saying that you are successful, (and i do not dispute that you are), despite not having the advantages taken for granted by 'swell guy'. Well that is fine and all credit to you for it but why then the need to qualify it by pouring scorn on those who you feel fit the 'swell guy' type. Even the term itself is negative and invites images of hair gel and medallions...to me at least!

You have made a lot of assumptions about people here without actually bothering to get to know them first. Of course that works both ways and I admit that I have formed an opinion about you and in reality know nothing about you.

For example I made a throw away 'gag' about sipping gin and you seem to have me down as an aged Noel Coward 'sniping away at an audience. Would that I had the talent but nothing could be futher from the truth. I am not a 'swell guy', am not one of the beautiful people and have never had it easy. Like you I have had to fight to be where I am (I am not a performer) but the difference is that I hold no grudge against anyone who had a bit more help getting there.

I am the first to admit that my posting style can come across as moralistic and high handed. I don't intend it that way but when you feel passionate and protective about something, ( as I as many others do about this BBS) then I suppose it is easy to get all evangelical about it.

Your confrontational style is not, (to use an English expression), my cup of tea. All it has achieved is to make me think of you a certain way when quite probably you are not as I assume at all. Whatever merit your subsequent posts or advice have they now have to break that barrier first (with me at least). Probably my loss, but again it works both ways. Anything I have said to you is probably dismissed as the ravings of a gin soaked octogenarian BBS control freak. (In the interests of clarity I am 32 and gin makes me sick )

Of course you are quite free to be as confrontational as you please. You can rock the boat all you want. Nothing comes for free though and you can't shake things up by taking your 'shots' and not expect the natives to shoot back.

Tony

I don't have time for verbal wrestling, but I would really like to hear your music, Pro.
DonM (Swell Guy)
dmason43@bellsouth.net www.donmasonmusic.com

this thread is like the movie groundhog day....I can't get past today...it's the same day..... over and over and over and over and over and over and over....cmon guys...you all got some great points....lets get on with life.....I belive the topic was how much does one charge for different gigs?????

[This message has been edited by B2 (edited 09-09-2002).]

Clubs: Week-day $100-150/a night
Week-end $175-200/a night
Parties: $250 - $400.
Animal Circuit (you know, Elks, Moose, Eagles, etc.) $250-$350
Casinos: $200 - $300.
Nursing Homes: From free to $200. (very few pay very much, but Christmas Parties, special occasions sometimes pay fairly well)
Currently working Wed. through Sun. at Supper Club Piano Bar. Monday and Tuesday Nursing Home Shows (a seperate business).
Additional income from tips and CD's: $30-$100/a night.
All suggestions for making more money are welcome. As long as it does not have anything to do with a REAL JOB.
DonM

Hi Guys,

just listened to: " A Kiss from a Rose", that the Pro just sent to me.
It is very Professional and sounds great.

I hope to listen to more of his music.

Eric

I've been following this thread with a smile on my face... It's incredible how people react to something that makes them feel threaten in some way...

What reason could we have to disbelieve what "The Pro" is telling us? Why do we react so unresonably when somebody tells us what might well be a plain and simple truth? He is indeed an intelligent friend of ours, even if he likes to play the indifferent to our brotherhood Oh yes, he likes to play games hard, he impresses us, and just look to how we react...

With a little attention to the style of his writing, to some more details, and a bit of research, we could easily find out that our Pro is a reincarnation of an old buddy (if you allow me to call you so) of this forum. He already proved us his musical ability; now that he's sophisticating his provocative style under a misterious identity some of us are really shaking... Mind is really powerful...

-- José.

whew ..... I'm exhausted.
You are ALL wonderful.
I am wonderful.
Life is wonderful.
My eyes are tired .... g'night good people !

Tomorrow I get to demo all the band instruments to some of the South Jersey public schools. A fun thing I do each year, that remeinds me just how hard it is to keep up with a wind instrument. I have to make sounds on:
Clarinet, sax, flute, oboe, french horn, bartitone & trombone. It's a challange, but I really "ham it up" for the kids and we all have a ball at the assembly.
Last year the demos were on Sept 11th.
When I take my cousin's baby picture on Wednesday .... ( I told you about that, right?) I'm going to surround her with all those orchestral instruments to remind us of what I was doing the morning she was born. Should be a cool picture.

Peace everyone.

Hello

Do I know how to start a thread or what? lol

I would love to hear some of your recordings The Pro and anybody else that has the time for that matter.

Thanx

scott_langholff@yahoo.com

Scott Langholff

[This message has been edited by Scott Langholff (edited 09-09-2002).]

UD ..... make sure you post that photo somewhere ..... our youngest granddaughter celebrated her 1st birthday that fateful day .... on a local NBC affiliate they announce first birthdays .... I sent her's (Alanna Grace) in and taped it .. looking back, the news at 7:00am that day seemed so bland and benign ... little did we know....
t.

I just listened to the Pro's recording. You seem to be able to play ok. I'm glad things are working out for you.

Scott L.,
We've vacationed in Gulf Shores every year for the last 8 years during spring break. If we go again this year maybe we could meet. I usually contribute to the economic health of your dog track when I'm there. I also love to go to Mesquite Charlies for their 32 ounce porterhouse steak.


tom

This is my final post to this particular thread... I will be on the road for a while. Those of you who have asked for examples of my music, I will try to answer individually next week.

I never meant to become the discussion subject here, but rather to insert a few thoughts into a discussion around the original topic. My "swell-guy" metaphor was apt but was not intended to try to drive this group into separate camps. Funny how many here don't want to be a swell-guy, but I for one have an envy complex. I have close freinds who take their talent, looks and good fortune for granted without realizing how difficult they are to compete with, even by their freinds. These guys are easy-going to a fault, and I may be a little too quick at times to rub a little salt into that fault. Sorry about that, and really Tony I don't know if you drink or not. Talk my comments both with and as a grain of salt.

Don't make much of my name or identity... it's no big deal and you'd be dissapointed if you knew who I was. Knowing that I can be abrasive I've simply chosen anonymity to allow myself freedom of expression. Now let's talk about the Tyros...

Well said Pro. It's a day for Peace. Let's all hope our minor disagreements about music styles is the worst thing we have to worry about!

DonM

Hi y'all,
As Don say's if there were ever a day to make us realise what really matters and what does not today is it.

Good luck on the road Pro.Break a leg! (I don't know if you use that expression over in the states but it is said over here as good luck before taking to the stage! If there is one thing that unites us it is that we all care about making music to the best of our ability so we all have quite a bit in common really
Best to all
Tony

TonyW ..... for the record, that is an old, but widely used figure of speech in the US of A ......
Pro .. I can appreciate your envy as I am one of the good looking, good sounding competitors of yours ... NOT!!!
. good luck on the road ...
t.

I see no problem in anonimity as far as the basic rules of mutual respect are kept (which I think was The Pro's case).What I do find interesting - and he probably does, too - is how differently people can react to something coming from somebody that doesn't have a face or a name. Shouldn't an opinion, a comment or an advice have a value of itself, regardless of our tranquility in knowing where it comes from?

The Pro exchanged comments with some of the ones that participated in this thread, before, with a real identity, and with no trace of the "crimpy" atmosphere that fluttered initially here. Personally I prefer to read him with his "new" abrasive, loose, authentic style. But there's reason to worry when somebody doesn't feel comfortable expressing his ideas in his own respectful - although abrasive - way, when we can see his face.

About your complex: many could well have envy complexes about your musical technique and originality!...

Ok, back to keyboards... :-)

-- José.

I've done the freebees, just to get heard.
I gig at three regular venues, did the first gig at each for nothing. It's to my benefit too as it gives you an opportunity to check the place out, how the room sounds, how the general clientel is, so the first time freebee aspect don't bother me.
If they like you, they bring you back.
So far, they keep bringing me back, so I must be doing something right.
Sometimes ya gotta spend money...to make money.
Just my thots