[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tony W:
[B]Hello UD,
I curse my bad fortune for living so far away that I may never get to see you perform live.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You know what. It is amazing how you can make the above statement and at the same time expect to form an a honest considered opinion

Johnnie,
I fail to see what warped logic brings you to conclude that the above statement makes me either dishonest or affects my objectivity.

Your post are often critical and never constructively so. Your initial post to this thread added nothing to the subject in hand and was only designed to insult. That is very considered and honest I suppose?

I want to apologise to Scott Langholff, it seems Scott that your thread has been hijacked by this.

Best wishes
Tony

Uncle Dave: you made the point that you charged $150 for your "nightly" gigs in another post and then said you charged more than your competitors in this thread. I brought that up as a minor and rather amusing point to a larger and more important point, but of course you and your fans here took up the bloody defense banner because your name might have been mentioned in vain. None the less, the topic is how much to charge so any on-topic post should be welcomed, unless you are way too vain to take a bow shot from others here that might be just as experienced as you for all you know.

I have over 32 years of solid pro experience and I am trying to contribute just as much to the discussion of arranger keyboards and professional performing as anybody here. And so far I think I've done so in an intelligent and factual manner, even if I take a poke at some of you long-timers with your own words. But this group can be ridiculously sensitive to bruises for any discussion group on the web. If you don't want anyone to poke fun at you for $150/gigs, don't put that information out here. It wasn't required, and in fact the person who started that particualr thread wasn't looking for $ amounts anyway but percentages of types of gigs.

And if someone like UD chooses to post their earnings, there's no need to rally to his defense if I or anyone else wants to take a shot at him for the sake of discussion... let him take his own lumps if he's as established and all-pro as you guys and he think. A little provocation can make for a more interesting conversation, rather than the same old "oh I've done it this way for years blah blah blah".

UD isn't the real subject here but his $150/nightly-club statement should be. I think that figure is about average for this business, and that is a shame because as I said earlier that figure hasn't changed much in two decades except for those who have stepped out of the mold. So perhaps we should talk about stepping out of the mold. Any takers?

(Please note: this may turn from a cocktail party to a football scrimmage without notice, please dress appropriately)

I will come to the defense of anyone, including the Pro, just as I would one of my immediate family, if I feel they were misunderstood. Play nice guys, we're all on the same team.
DonM

It's been more than 20 years since the "club circuit" has been considered a viable place to earn a living in the music business. Today's working professional has to diversify in order to survive, and the "outside" (private/corporate) is where all the real money is. The private parties are definitely the highest share of the money market, and that is where my income comes from. The club dates are a small part of the package that pay a few bills and keep my chops in shape. It's also a "meeting ground" for clients.

While $150 doesn't seem like much money to some ... it really is about average for the kind of work I specified, and way more than you get in certain parts of the country. (USA, that is) I could probably live on my private parties, but it would be a stretch, so I prefer to keep the "business" aspect of Show Biz as active as I can. By doing a wide assortment of jobs (including my recording studio) I have managed to stay full time and still squeak ahead a little at a time over the years.

As far as "The pro" is concerned:
I guess that because your name suggests professionalism, we are just supposed to buy that. I looked at your profile and got no name or no email address. So, I don't really know what to think. A professional entertainer would take every opportunity to advertise his name and how to get hold of him as well. Why so secretive? Are you afraid someone might actually contact you?

I agree that this is a place for discussion, but it has become much more than that for many of us. The closeness that some of us share has bled over into our personal lives and we truly care about one another. You seem to have an "icy" edge to all your comments, and it isn't necessary. You can let your guard down here ... it's a safe haven for musicians at ALL levels to join in the discussion. The pros help the novices, and the novices help the pros. We're all the same on many ways, so take a step back and try to get to know some of the good people that you are talking to. You'll enjoy the time much more.

I realize it's pretty safe to just stay anonymous and spew out all kinds of advice about every subject but if you open your self to the possibility of a TWO WAY conversation among friends .... you'll get more out of the forum. That's the way I see it anyway.

Concerning money - I rarely like to talk about it. I have shared that info with very few people outside my family and the fact that I shared it here was a testament to the value of this forum. I tried to show the readers that it IS possible to make some real money in the local music scene. It's a hard business, but it IS possible if you do it right. We are truly trying to help each other. It's not a place to SHOWCASE your knowledge. It's a place of true concern and caring. We all know a lot about a lot, in WHATEVER areas. I've gotten many tips from home users that help me in my daily work. Let's drop the "PRO" facade and share the MUSIC.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Uncle Dave:
Let's drop the "PRO" facade and share the MUSIC


Now that is really rich coming from someone who is always going on about being a pro

This is what I will never understand! Why would you (or anyone) want to take a shot anyway? By all means post that you do not agree with a point of view but in this case it was not just that was it? You set out to beat Dave with his own words and in the event did so entirely out of context. Dave was offering his advice to Scott L and you seemed unable to offer any UNTIL you had belittled Daves. Maybe you thought that trashing someone else's opinion would make your own appear stronger?

I am not saying that your advice to Scott was not valid or even good advice. What I am saying is that it was not enhanced any by your 'shot' at Daves advice.

Even your quote above cannot just say...."Let Dave fight his own battles" without you adding the inference that Dave may not be the Pro we all think he is. That just comes across as sour. If you don't like the man or his 'persona' then that is fine. However let your opinions and arguments stand on their own merit. Taking cheap shots at anothers advice for whatever reason will not promote your point of view effectively.

It is not just you Pro. It seems that this 'take a shot culture' is everywhere at the moment. It used to be that even if we did not agree with each other threads were always continued with the premise that there was a basic respect for the person or people behind the post. It seems these days that it is more important to provoke a response than to actually help and understand each other effectively.




All that padding can't be good for the figure. I'll stand at the side and sip me gin thanks.

Tony



------------------
If sometimes I am over-dressed I make up for it by always being immensly over-educated.

Hey Johnny,
I am proud of my accomplishments in the world of performance art. Are you happy with YOUR job?

When I started to post in this forum, I was already a frequent visitor for many months. This forum never ceassed to surprise me, in the sense that I feel very "at home", here, when I expected a decrease of my interest with time. For an amateur like me, the forum has been an extremely valuable source of information and, well beyond, a very warm place to be, with a very friendly atmosphere. I like very much to call it "warm" even if friction episodes or bitter words appear from time to time. They are normal conflicts of personalities, but occupy a very small room here, in comparison with all that we learn here (my feeling, at least...).

The distinction between a "pro" and an "amateur" has never been very clear to me. It separates people more according to, weather or not they make a(n exclusive) living of music, than according the money they charge for their acts. Personally, I DO NOT CARE who's pro or amateur in this forum. I know that this is a "cliché", but I feel that I can learn with almost everybody. Maybe this
is so because I'm totally relaxed in what concerns music: I make a living from teaching maths in a small portuguese university.

Each of us has its own strategy of pricing our services and have our own ideas of how to prospect and to get jobs. I have tried some of the ideas of Scott Yee, Dave and The Pro and will tell my results. But I must warn you: I'm not a typical musician and I come from an untypical country in this forum with an untypical music market. And although I have some schollar musical background (well above average in the area where I live) I have little experience in entertaining (4 years, but I'm really going slowly at a rather relaxed pace). In addition the music
market is very limited around here (this is a poor region of a relatively poor european country), and people don't really value a quality performance/entertainment. The bookings are very seasonal and much more achieved by people networks than by quality of the act. The "Pro" strategy, although theorically a valid one, doesn't apply to my case. Nevertheless I try to be careful about my image and presentation but am conscious that my audiences might give the extra value for the "wrong" reasons: they tend to judge me more by my appearence than by my musical/entertaining act. Oh well...

I started four years ago with low rates (the lower end of the spectrum), just like Scott Yee suggested. Very wise strategy. I also considered two ways of presenting myself:

- play for half of the rate (1st time)
- play for free (1st time)

They are both good ideas, but the second one proved to provide better results, maybe because of cultural reasons. Here people expect you to play free, but I only do it once (exceptions with friends). I usually get more jobs from these freebies.

I never work with contracts, but I wouldn't recommend anyone to do the same. Things in the USA are surely different, and contracts are mandatory. Maybe I've been lucky, maybe I'm in a very relaxed position in what concerns music, but I like to trust and I like people trust me. I never regretted it.

I always have cards with me when in a job and I agree with Scott Yee: a friendly attitude, flexibility, honesty count a lot in building respect and trust. In private parties, some audiences like to participate and sing along with me. I am very permissive and flexible to that (contrary to many of my collegues, from what I hear...) and feel that my reputation as an entertainer gains a lot with that practice. Here there are many possibilities of getting jobs for private parties, but one of the best is to have excellent personal relations with places that host these parties. Owners of rural houses that host weddings, for example. They will recommend you to potencial costumers if they like your work. I give a special treatment to all of these who chain their costumers to my entartaining services.

Steady work is difficult to find here (people network play a major role), specially when you're not born "in town" (I come from the south of Portugal and came to the north just for the work) but it was never an important issue for me (it's not my first occupation).

About money: I would never agressively ask you what your earnings are (not polite, not polite..), but of course, I'm curious of having a crude idea. I was a bit surprised of UD's rates. They are close to (slightly higher than) the rates here (mine included), despite all the differences in the cultural and night life scene. The only significant differences occur in the small/medium dinner-dances (much less here: around $200/$250). The musical act is normally payed by the house who hosts the party and not by the participants (not directly, at least).

Hope to keep reading your useful inputs in this "warm place"...

-- José.

_________________________________
Davey
I know only too well my station in life & one of my achievements is that I have never tried to pretend that I am something I am not.

I have played music with some of the best musicians (artistic ability) there are but they just went about their job quietly & never ever tried to brag as to how good a pro they were

Now if you want to carry on believing that you are some special kind of professional & in reality you are really only a one man band why keep bragging about it.

When we all post on the forums we all put ourselves up for people to have a pop at us so we should be prepared for it to happen & not be scared of criticism so that it makes us delete our thread or just go off in a huff