The following opinion is not necessarily the view of Synth Zone , it's moderator or it's advertisers.

Pull up a chair and grab a cup of coffee...

I am probably going to jump around a bit[very unorganised]..I will be typing with two fingers as my brain says what it wants to say...even what it doesn't want to say..

I know most of you are thinking I am very prejudice towards Roland[in fact I am], but I will always give my honest input..Pro and Con..

Now a word from our sponsor..." Have you ever awaken feeling tired and run down..try Lipton tea..it works for me"....

I finally got a chance to put a Roland thru it's paces..I think I touched on every feature that it has..

After turning it on, I noticed it was an OS2 model..
The first thing I played was the Grand X piano..absolutely super...Although I think it is head and shoulders better than the Korg arrangers and the Yamaha arrangers...I feel that Roland's 700SX piano has better dynamics[control of the filter to round out the sounds]..Even though most of today's pianos are velocity layered, I still like to control the filter with velocity instead of velocity switching the samples.

This Grand X piano is way better than my G1000[favorite piano]. If you played naked piano , I would want the Grand X, but in the world of arranger play the G1000 piano holds it's own..

The second thing I noticed is how all the critics are "out to lunch" with negative comments of over done reverb and other effects..If anything I would add some more effects to certain instruments..The voices are quiet and clear [something I always liked with Roland]..
Now I only know of the OS2 model..maybe the first release needed work, but I have read of others knocking the OS2 sounds, and they are completely wrong[even if sounds are personal, their reasons are nonsense..].

Many people speak of poor quality styles..again they are "out to lunch".
Many are the best styles I have ever heard[and now..used]...
The G70 is very flexible when it comes to edited or changing styles..

Effects are plentiful for all instruments [ style and realtime instruments], and vocals[basic compression, delay,reverb, vibrato etc]..
The organ module section is just unsurpassed..only equalled by Roland's VK and VR instruments...

Sequenced playback is a mixed bag..Sound wise it is great..Selection and play is better than any current arrangers on the market...but it can't touch the G1000 for quickest selection and play from any keyboard mode...
The DisCover5 actually is a better SMF playback and harmonizer package than the G70.
The DisCover5 is less cluttered and easier to get around on stage than the G70, and for that matter all the Roland's do a better job live[on stage] in this area than Korg, Yamaha or Ketron..

Even the covers, part edits are easier on the DisCover5 than the G70.

Comparing the G70 to the G1000..All the things the G1000 can do...it does better than the same features on the G70[common features]..

The extra features the G1000 offers, I definitely miss on the G70..Chord sequencer, Control sliders, assignable buttons. Insert effects default button. Manual bass and assignable features to buttons that make realtime play more enjoyable..
Two sets of midi in,out and thrus..
Easier access to midi parameters, make the G1000 the better MIDI controller..

The sound source on the DisCover5 is almost identical to the G70 except for some very nice additional sounds [piano, brass, and there are a lot of oriental sounds and drums].

So to me that also means the vast majority sounds are the same as the VA series..

Roland has made it easy to have the best of it's line in one package..It is a great keyboard..True , most pro players will want to set it up to their specific needs, and indeed that is possible...but after I reset to factory settings..You can definitely play this board out of the box..[More nonsense comments about the negative "can't play without a lot of work setting up"]...

Roland has listened to too many Yamaha, Korg and Ketron people and potential customers..They have added useless features, that pro players don't need or want...The song finder list[although it works nice], it is limited to a single set up per song and [factory load] does not set up the one touch settings]..another useless feature to me..
Most pro players use their bread and butter favorite list of sounds [readily available]..
As for song finder list..Roland has had the best system for the last ten years..it is the user performance settings..Roland actually utilized the User performance feature calling it a Music assistant in the VA series....

If I was an owner of a Yamaha Tyros /Tyros2 arranger, I would seriously swap [part change] to the G70..The pluses the G70 offers..Guitar mode, SMf player and covers, VK organ, and the best vocalizer on the market..combined with the best key feel on the market[and 76 of them]...far out weigh the weight issue and the poorly designed HD recorder of the Tyros2..

For those of us[Alex K , Craig and others] that own and know how to use the G1000 [especially if you play professionally]..the G70 is taking a step backwards...we would be giving up too many things that are superior to the G70, Tyros2, SD1 etc..

My set up now with the G1000 and the DisCover5 works better on stage than the G70..Even though I have to set up another board..When the job calls for all the guns..that's what I am going to do..

If you don't have this combination[and probably don't know why I feel this way..No frustration on stage]...The G70 is a great board when measured against today's choices..

When I re collect my thoughts and rest my two fingers, I will comment on some other things on the G70 that I liked and some that had less desirable results..

I am sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes[but you should wear shoes anyway]..

Let me make one final point...Ten years from now..I walk into Cintioli's Music...and Benny says .."I found a G1000 and a G70 new in the box...You can have one or the other for a thousand dollars"...I will be leaving Benny's with a new in the box.....G.......1000....


[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 07-14-2006).]

Hi Fran

Thanks for you rewiev.


I have just looked in the DisCover5 manual, and there is no difference. The G-70 has exactly the same SMF playback and harmonizer package.


Maybe it�s because you have get used to the DisCover5 edit functions.


That�s not the true. You know the G1000 much better than the G-70, right?



The G-70 has assignable buttons. It only has one set of midi in, out and true, because you also can use the USB for midi.



The some sounds = a lot of new sounds.



How can you say it works better? It works better for you because its your good old setup and because you don�t know the G-70 good enough.

Regards Niels

[Fran, I enjoyed your report, you did not leave out too much.

For the last eight to ten years I wanted no other keyboard but my Technics, from KN2000 to the KN7000. I felt there was no comparison in sound, sequencer, or ability to work live with it on stage. I bought a Tyros out of curiosity, sold it, it did not do the job. I bought a second Tyros, tried again, sold it too, it did not do the job.

With the end of Technics I knew I had to make a move. I made a full commitment, sold the KN7 and bought a Tyros 2. With this dedication I found I can, as a professional do a better job with the Tyros 2, in almost every aspect of performing.

What I am saying is until a full commitment is made over a period of time � until your mind set begins to get a new view --- thinking like the new keyboard, you will stay with your original views.

I am not saying that the G1000 does not make it. I believe if I were using the keyboard for as long as you have and performed as you do, with the mind set of the G1000, I too would love it.

Each manufacturer puts a great deal of time into their design of their keyboard trying to give us the best. Until the tool is mastered you do not know the keyboard � you will use as you do your old keyboard.

What I have found through the years if it is new sound system, a new guitar or a new keyboard, you may play it at home or in a store and not find the correct answer. But---- as soon as I play it on the job I have my answer within minutes. Amen!

Only my opinion, John C.






[This message has been edited by bruno123 (edited 07-14-2006).]

Oh how long ive waited for this moment. It was very very interesting reading your feelings on the g70. Do i detect a silent tear of slight disappointment though Fran ? Im looking foward to the sequel (frans e80 review )

Niels
some of what you say may be true..Naturally the more you use something the easier it gets..but I am not a novice, especially when it comes to arrangers..Roland in particular..

Even though the DisCover 5 seems to be identical to the G70..The selection process and play control is different than the G70..The DisCover 5, because it is not an arranger has a simplified window that is always accessible to SMF's..High speed scroll or search window is always available..Make the selection and push play...

The G70 you have to push the first page to select "song" selection..then location..go thru pages to locate the song ..select and then play..This is too many steps [as the Tyros2]..
Add the fact you are going back and forth from arranger mode to sequence play..it is not as convenient, as the DisCover 5[one job to do]..Also the edit within a song are much easier because of dedicated buttons..The Covers are the same..

Comparing the G1000 to the G70..to me the edge definitely goes to the G1000 for what it does...First the sequence playback is much better on the G1000[in fact the sequence playback is better than the DisCover5 for speed and access]. I find selection, edits of sequences, saving as system exclusive, selection of tones and variations, selection of intros, variations, how I want fills to play, endings , break, retarding of tempo, and selection of endings..are all easier on the G1000..because of dedicated buttons and less button pushes..

On top of that the things the G1000 does that the G70 can not......I want the G1000..


Of course we can get use to the extra steps...but that does not make it better...

Keep in mind, because Roland has added all of their great products in one board..you do have to sacrifice some things...This sacrifice is dedicated buttons and the need for more menus...

The USB does not help if you are "midied" to other modules and midi port instruments. The flexibility of switching from port "A" to port "B"..allows for more complex Midi sets.

I do not dislike the G70..In fact if I had to buy a new keyboard..without a doubt I would buy the G70...Thankfully, I do not have to buy a new board,,As an arranger the G1000 does all I would hope to do.. The DisCover 5 gives all the SMF goodies and the best harmonizer money can buy...I just have to use them both if I need both worlds..

I can do any job with just my G1000... or the DisCover5 ..

Many of the same reasons I pick the G1000 over the G70..are the same reasons I picked[kept] the G1000 over the 3 VA7's I owned for three years[yes I was use to them and still sold them in favor of the G1000]..

I carefully checked out the G70 to see if it would improve my needs...It doesn't...

Other people will not be in my situation, and I have giving the G70 a stamp of approval in the current market....and as I am famous for saying..."Newer is not always better"

Fran,
I have to admit � you�ve got me going, if I came across a G1000 I think I would buy it out of curiosity.

John C.

John, I have this bridge in Brooklyn, you can have cheap!!

Fran,

Great post. It makes me want to purchase a G1000, pull up a chair at your place and take notes. I too was very impressed at NAMM a while back with the Discover - most have given up on that one!

All in all, Roland products just have that 'real' total sound advantage over other models and it's hard for me to steer towards other makes, no matter what the OS might offer.

zuki

Fran .....excellent honest G70 review as always , I wish I was with you but as you know I was performing. Your points are very valid and sensible regarding the new & old, as I also am a previous G1000 owner & player I can see your opinions and make sense of them for sure.... the G1000 is a hard act to follow for the pro player....to this day I still miss many of the navigational features which really worked soooooo sweetly compared to even my new Tyros 2!! On top of all that it there are No little pictures under the keys & it's BLACK !!! .......next the E-80

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 07-14-2006).]

Hi fran thanks for that report. Its always good to hear other peoples opinions of this instrument. The key thing that your experience points to is the simple fact that if what you have already fulfilled your needs , why change ? You have very ably described the features that you felt were common in the instruments (G1000 and G70) and pointed to what you felt were the relative advantages etc. However what many G70 users have alluded to in previous posts is the editablility of the instrument compared to its predecesors. Do you not think that with some time and dedication you could be as comfortable with the G70 as you are with the G1000 ?

I have listened to some of the demos that you posted previously of the G1000 and there is no question in my mind that at least from the demos i would choose the G1000 over the G70 but dont you believe that with familiarity the G70 could sound better ?

I mean i dont agree with your opinion regarding the sound qualiy out of the box (but thats just different tastes possibly ) but if you like the sounds already without any tweaking surely that means the work for you to adapt the instrument to your needs is going to be much easier than for someone like me ?

What do you think ?

I can only re-affirm that I auditioned a G70 (with OS2) too, and still believe Tyros2 sounds far better. I acknowledge though that the G70's keyfeel & 76 note keyboard build more solid (abeit substantially heavier in weight: 32 vs 45.6 lbs and bulkeir), and includes an intuitive user friendly navigation. The lackluster styles sound disappointedly reimiscent of the Roland G800 styles (of which I owned the RA800 module version). In addition, Roland has yet to implement rootless jazz style chord recognition, of which is so critically important to me. If Roland would only come out with a lighter weight E80, or an arranger with rootless jazz chord recognition, I might finally re-consider. When will Roland finally wake up and join Yamaha, Technics, Ketron, and Korg with this important to jazz influenced keyboard player feature? - Scott

As Fran said this was only a first impression and nothing more than that. After a longer use of the G70 he could have a total different and more positive impression based on experience.

I prefer the G70 and not the G1000 which I had before. I am a styleplayer and do not use the sequencer. When I had the G1000 I did not use the chordsequencer so I do not miss it on the G70. I only play the G70 and do not use Midi.
The many styles I have today in my External Memorycard placed in the G70 are all tweaked and edited by myself to my personal taste. The result of that editing and tweaking can not be reached at the G1000. In that point the G70 is far easier than the G1000 and the result is far better.
Because the pianosounds on the G70 are better than on the G1000 the styletracks that use a pianosound are better too. And the same can be said of the other better sounds of the G70 and there are many!!
But as I said I am a styleplayer and that makes a difference of course.

The more time I spend with the G-70 the more I like it. I have been making set list, which is fairly easy. The on-board styles sound very good but I have not gone through all of them so I might find what I need to use on the job in the keyboard. For me the chord recognition feature on midi playback is very useful when using harmony.
(Down side)
I was under the impression that you could attach lyrics to style playback like on the Ketron but was told by Roland service department this can�t be done; although this was disappointing I still like the G-70�s ease of maneuverability on the fly.

Hank

Thanks for the report Fran. I'm going to try to spend a few hours with the G70 and T2 side by side. At this point I'm still thinking I'll walk away with a T2, but until I play both together, mess with the harmonizers, simulate a couple of live performances, and go thru the menus, there is no way to know for sure.

If only the T2 had the G70's keybed and 76, the choice would be simpler.. Ahhh.. If only....

Perfect doesn't exist, but I hope to walk away with the machine that works best for me and my playing needs.

AJ

AJ , really look deep into the G70..Personally I think it is far better than the Tyros2 overall..They both have their strengths and weak points as sounds go, but overall they both sound great..

If you want to set up the G70 to meet your needs..it will be a complete super performing instrument..

People are reading my impression wrong because I favor the way the G1000 does certain things..It doesn't mean the G70 is not a great keyboard..in fact it is..

But to me the G1000 is greater in certain respects that I value...If my G1000 died tomorrow[and I couldn't replace it with a clean G1000]...I would have a G70 sitting here the same day..

The Vocalizer alone is worth buying the G70 over the Tyros2..If you consider the other superior features and quality...it is a No Brain-er to me..

I know you are open minded..look deep, you are not going to go wrong with either one, but one is better than the other....

"but one is better than the other.... "

... and we have different opinions about which one that is!
DonM

I am not having a personal stab at anyone here, I wish to throw in my input on this topic. Although I do not post alot on this forum, I definitely read alot of posts everyday and know whats happening in the arranger world.

I truly beleive people judge keyboards in too much depth by their "features" over the sound quality. Features of coarse are important, but at the end of the day you are playing a keyboard to make music to be heard and enjoyed. doesnt matter what features the G70 or G1000 may have over the Tyros 2, if you close your eyes and listen to them being played, the tyros is much more pleasing to the ears in all genres.

Nothing yet has been released to say "yes that definitely makes the T2 sound dated".

by all means choose the keyboard that suits yourself and your own playing style, but to say that the G70 is a "better" keyboard than the Tyros 2, I have to say, thats a very broad comment and leaves yourself wide open for arguement.

If Tyros 2 had sliders and 76 keys with its existing setup and sound engine it would by far be the ultimate keyboard for a long time hands down with no competition at all!

Perhaps Nick, but ease of use is important to me as well. I want to perform, and think a little less about the other things, if that makes sense. I like more keys.. what can I say ? Also sound is subjective anyway, and I like the sounds coming from both of these arrangers. I have a much deeper sound palette inside of my laptop ( many gigabytes of high quality sounds and modules ) than either of these arrangers is going to give me anyway, but the main point of going for an new arranger is that I'm also looking for something that I have to think about less to play.

In reality, my software OMB setup sounds better than my PA80 does. Not the styles per se, ( though often I like the simpler Yamaha styles ) but the lead voices are so much better coming from the laptop that it isn't even close. The caveat is it's not always so easy to setup and navigate more advanced features in the laptop when I compare it to a hardware arranger.

AJ

Nick, I gave my reasons other than subjective view on sounds..There is nothing subjective about more, better feeling keys, a superior harmonizer, a much better organ drawbar mode, a guitar mode..and better quality construction..

If the G70 came with two hot babes to carry and set up the G70 and another knock out beauty to handle the technical side of the G70....This would be the "Ultimate keyboard"!!!!

I have a feeling Fran will be getting a
E-80....instead of a G70....& then he can juggle his G1000/ Discover6 Module,
E-80, Roland Cube amps & a LT...now thats a real man's Super "FLEXIBLE" great sounding Combo for any occasion!!

Hi Fran, forget the two hot babes and settle for DNJ and Uncle Dave instead to carry it. They could always slip on a dress for you lol

Here's how you could look as a trio, the new 3 degrees



[This message has been edited by Craig_UK (edited 07-15-2006).]

Craig

Hey........wait a minute. That's a pic of guys! Hmmmmmmmm........but the one in the middle ain't bad. lol

Craig, are you a member of The Rooster nite club?

Not yet Fran. I was hoping you could get me a discount what with all the contacts you have.

How long has the G70 been out now? Has it been a year?

What confuses is me is, why is the jury still out on this keyboard? Why are we still evaluating it and comparing it to other keyboards? Is it because it hasn't been available or is it because we still don't know what we think about it.

Fran, you really had me interested in your evaluation until you made this statement:
"If I was an owner of a Yamaha Tyros /Tyros2 arranger, I would seriously swap [part change] to the G70.."

How can you be objective when you say stuff like that? Unless it was a tongue in cheek dig at Donny? Well if that's the case, good on ya!



[This message has been edited by kbrkr (edited 07-16-2006).]

Heres a great G70 forum with alot of info
http://www.selskabsmusikeren.dk/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

My emphasis is on "I"had a Tyros

No need to be objective on my personal choice.

Keep in mine...nothing about the Tyros and the little contact I have had with the Tyros2 has wowed me.. Even the PSR's I have owned..left me embarrassed enough I had to "Dump" them...

I know there are many happy owners of these boards..and that is great..We are all different and ours needs reflect our differences......thus the Emphasis on "I"....


PS..No digs at DNJ...sometimes even he realizes a poor judgement in a product..

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 07-16-2006).]

Mate why dont you go and post in a Roland forum. You know that the majority of people in this forum are Yamaha owners.

We all know Yamaha shits on Roland but we dont go plastering it in everyones face to make a name for ourselves...

If Roland suits your playing style and taste more than Yamaha, fine, tell us once then keep the rest to yourself.

We arent here to talk down on or 'trash' eachothers keyboards, although You seem to do that alot

Im sure other peope in here will agree...

Hey Hey Hey! Don't go telling people where to post their opinions The title of this particular forum is GENERAL ARRANGERS. If you want to post "specifically" about Yamaha arrangers (as you say most here are Yamaha owners) then there is a dedicated YAMAHA ARRANGERS forum for those posts as well. This forum covers ALL arrangers.

Is it fair to other arranger players for there to be a "bias" towards Yamaha on the GENERAL ARRANGER forum?

NOW PLAY NICE!

Squeak



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-17-2006).]

True True,

It just doesnt look and sound very friendly when there is someone who constantly talks down on a product that most people in this forum are prowd owners of.

By raising such opinions in front of all these people, you must know that there is someone who is going to express their own opinion of you and what you are stating...

Thats why some opinions are best kept to yourself.

[img]http://cdn-aimtoday.aol.com/aimtoday_kisses/shutup[/img]

M8

Nick G.......... 'Fraid most of the talking down on this forum has been AGAINST the G70, not for it........... (Hurts when the shoe is on the other foot, don't it?). If you need a nice safe place to troll where you won't hear anything bad about the Yamaha's (except of course from Yamaha owners who realize that there MIGHT be room for improvement in Yamaha-land!) there IS a Yamaha Forum. Knock yourself out in there with self-congratulatism!

You might also research just how experienced and professional many of the posters on this thread are, before you chime in with what must be taken as a completely childish rant....... Just ask yourself 'Would I have talked like this to any of these guys faces?' ....... If not, think before you post - if so, well, just ask your Mommy all about being polite.........


kbrkr, I think the jury is still out on the G70 (especially in the US) because they are so hard to find......... They also got a bad rap when they first came out because of the poorly balanced styles (since fixed) and tended to not sound as polished as the Tyros2 out of the box.

However, many pros have been quietly and slowly moving towards it, primarily because of it's wonderful 'live band' sound, and, I guess, pros are more used to having to do a fair bit of tweaking before ANY keyboard is to their liking.

Hobbyist tend to not want to deal with tweaking as much as pros, and tend also towards a more polished 'CD-like' sound rather than the 'live band' sound that Roland have always specialized in.........

Fran and I have already had our go-'round at the Danish site, and I can only say we have respectfully agreed to disagree, with the exception that he DOES admit that if he were trying to replace his entire rig (keyboards, modules AND laptop stuff) with ONE keyboard, the G70 would be his choice.........

Anyway, I definitely feel that, as more and more pros and experienced hobbyists finally get to hear the G70 in person (not the over-produced Roland demos), the balance is starting to change. Who knows, maybe if only the nay-sayers who have actually PLAYED a G70 in the last 8 months (since the new OS and style revisions) post negatively about the G70, it might get a LOT quieter in here............

Jeees, where do I sign up for my spot in the we love Fran Club?

Your already a member of the club here on the SZ

Just remember, you are a JUNIOR member of the 'we love Fran club'!! (and the initiation ceremony is painful and degrading, and involves carrying Fran's huge gear list for a month!)

Sorry guys I didnt know Junior members had no right to post in the forum...

dnj, nice said!

nick g, wrong said!

Member Name: Nick G.
Registered: 11-16-2005
Posts: 28

Member Name: Dikki
Registered: 04-25-2005
Postings: 178

Hey Dikki, compared to me, you're a "JUNIOR" member too

Scott Yee, Senior SZ Member

Member Name: Scottyee
Registered: 12-01-99
Postings: 7,590

Scott you are just OLD

Fran, if I'm OLD, then you're ANCIENT !

Scott

Though I don't agree with Nick G. 100% (maybe 90), I can certainly understand his feelings and his response. Posting with the deliberate intent to annoy is certain to get a response like Nick's. Constantly badmouthing one brand does get tiresome after awhile and touting 10 year old technology as being "the best" is like wishing to go to the moon aboard Sputnik. I lived in Philadelphia long enough to recognize a "South Philly" attitude when I see one. For those from the Philly area, think "700 level".

chas

Guys , every time I say "I" prefer, it is my personal choice of what works better for "ME"..It doesn't matter if it is 10 years old...Not what is the "BEST" keyboard period...but what works "BEST for "ME".....Do you guys get it yet!!

Chas you really don't know me...I'm not a South Philly type boy...I have a lot of South Philly friends though...

And I am far from the 700 level type..If you watch any 76er games.. You will more likely find me in the second row behind the backboard....We still celebrate, but not like the 700 level at the now gone Vet..

Diki makes a good point on another post.
His G70 group, take a beaten with all the negative comments towards their beloved instrument..and if someone returns comments even slightly as negative about the Tyros2...the fur flies...I can always accept personal opinions for likes and dislikes of a product...knowing they are "personal".

Benefit wise..I do personally feel the G70 is more in tune with my needs, and many more probably feel the same...but, dare not say so, because of over reaction of many of you.....Get a life,,,none of this is a big deal..If it works for you ...who cares what anyone else says.......maybe it doesn't work for you!!!

PS: don't get offended by the expressive[funny] icons I posted...

.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 07-24-2006).]

Originally posted by Fran Carango:
[B.nothing about the Tyros and the little contact I have had with the Tyros2 has wowed me.. Even the PSR's I have owned..left me embarrassed enough I had to "Dump" them...

I am a Junior Member myself but I don't let people get to me just because of their opinions. Opinions are just that and I still have to read am opinion that's final on SZ. As far as I know everything is debatable. Whether Fran likes or dislikes Yamaha, that's up to him. Why should it bother me. Do notice that Fran writes that HE dumped HIS Yamaha keyboards and not someone elses. Just wish he dumped them in my backyard.

---------------------------------------------
Diki makes a good point on another post.
His G70 group, take a beaten with all the negative comments towards their beloved instrument..and if someone returns comments even slightly as negative about the Tyros2...the fur flies...I can always accept personal opinions for likes and dislikes of a product...knowing they are "personal".
---------------------------------------------

Fran,
I couldn't agree more! You're right that there has been a lot of G-70 bashing on the forum, even though Roland has done a complete 180 with the unit since the initial release.

However, say something negative about the T2 or Yamaha, and it's like watching monkeys at the zoo "flinging poo". I have always felt that there has been an unfair bias towards Yamaha on the General Arranger's Forum.

At times I feel it seems as memebers feel they have to "protect their investment" vocally when someone says something negative about a keyboard--as if they owe the company something. This is clearly a mostly "opinionated" environment.

Users should be able to voice their opinions (even if they're negative) about a keyboard without getting hit in the head for it.

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-18-2006).]

Fran,

Honestly what you have just said is spot on. Its just the way you continuously say that Roland is 'better' or 'ahead' of yamaha.

It may be a better keyboard for YOU, but you have to admit you make it out as if your talking in general.

We know you love Roland and it meets your needs and wants. Roland is awesome and I'm not saying otherwise, but I garantee you this: If I posted that I have tried Roland boards and I "dumped" them becuase they are "rubbish and embarrasing," you would be on top of the post straight away throwing in your two cents to defend Roland.

We are all here becuase we love keybaords, we're all here to talk and argue about them, but you have to understand that some things you are going to say, your definitely going to get a reaction. It may not always be the reaction you want.

I apologise for sounding harsh in my initial post as text and emails always do sound worse than speech, but I had to make my point clear.

cheers...

[This message has been edited by Nick G (edited 07-18-2006).]

Hey this is getting good

Can't wait to see the fur fly when the
E-80 becomes mainstream

Diki should try reading SZ more often. There's been plenty of stick from Roland owners bashing the likes of the Tyros 2...
Fair enough I've said the G70 was rubbish in the past but at least I had one for 3 months to warrant my comments. The majority of the roland owners saying the T2 is c**p have never even heard one.
It's all a load of childish bull, you buy a keyboard that suites your own individual tastes so obviously at the time of purchase it is the best keyboard for YOU, this is not necessarily the same for anyone else!

By the way I'm selling my membership of the Fran Carrango club on Ebay, I've started it a 1p but I fell this could still be too expensive

Just to add to what's been said above, Fran always saying the G70 is better etc and putting down the T2, I can't see it making any difference to anyone else. If all Fran does is play midi files he may as well keep his G1000 for this and forget about getting any new keyboard just for the sake of a different GM/GS sound set. All his comments suggest to me is that the G70 may have better GM sounds than the T2 - big deal, hardly anyone cares about a GM set it's the rest of the sounds that matter!

[This message has been edited by Craig_UK (edited 07-18-2006).]

I'm a majority stock holder

Ok. Here's my 2 cents. My complaint is less about Fran Carango putting down Yamaha keyboards, but the way he taunts Yamaha owners (included myself) for having purchased one. This borders on being a form of personal attack, and has driven away a number of valued SZ members: Roel DeJonge, Chico Brasil, Dreamer, Tyrosman, theWolf, just to name a few. My email (from fellow SZ members) has been running high sharing these same sentiments.

Everyone here has the right to express themselves freely, but Fran has been putting down Tyros2 before I purchased mine (back in Nov 2005) claiming that the G70 has got to be FAR better, even though he NEVER ever touched a G70 until just last week, and not even seen a Tyros2 till only a few months earlier. It's these kind of UNQUALIFED statements (and there have been many from him) that only serve to mislead & confuse SZ member keyboard buyers into believing he's a 'qualified' expert on these boards, when in fact he hadn't played either of them yet. Funny thing is that whenever I respond to his T2 attacks proving him wrong, he never responds back to admit he was wrong.

On the surface, Fran's T2's attacks are guised with (sarcastic) humor, but I sense a deeper sense of resentment as the attacks continue month after month, year after year.

I only want to close by saying that I hold no specific arranger brand allegiance. I currently prefer Yamaha Tyros arrangers because they work best for my needs today. If something else comes along (other brand/model) which matches my needs better, I'll not hesitate to switch brands. Above and beyond which arranger model, to me, it's about making music, and all the current arrangers on the market offer the tools for this, the rest is up to us, as no keyboard can compensate for or substitute for true keyboard artistry & talent, of which requires putting in your dues: blood, sweat, and tears.

I hope more emphasize can be placed on sharing and helping each other become better arranger players instead of bickering about which brand/model arranger is better than the other.

Scott

I guess that meams you are not the president of my new fan club..

I guess that means you are not the president of my new fan club..


BTW, I don't remember you ever proving me wrong about anything!!!


How can I be wrong about how I feel.. I touched the keys,, I heard the sequence playback..I heard the super sounds and I draw ed my own opinion as you vocally mentioned your opinions about the RA800[remember] and your experience with the G70...Look into the mirror and think!!!

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 07-18-2006).]

Fran puts How can I be wrong about how I feel.. I touched the keys,, I heard the sequence playback

These keys in question were they disk access, load midi file and play ?

The G70 does have 76 keys m8. Shame you don't live in the UK as I give music lessons.

BTW.. I "dumped" a lot of gear over the years...What this means..I can't use this and I have to get rid of it..immediately...

Has nothing to do with brands..In recent years, I have "Dumped" instruments I really liked, but knew they were not a priority in my needs...An example..Roland VR760..One of the best instruments I owned, but did not fit my bill..Since it was brand new and very sell able..I "dumped" it quickly...

For different reasons, I "dumped my PSR 2100's.. so I would not lose too much money on them..These were on my So.So list..

Likewise the SD1[great board ..wrong owner..].

So you can see "dumped" is not a dirty word to me..it is a given necessity at times..

A Survival Guide to Taking a Dump At Work

Nick, Chas, Scott & Craig,

I fully agree your posts !
Perhaps the best thing to do is ignore those comments/opinions.

C'est le ton qui fait la musique

In his case it's only the midi-file

As soon as I saw Fran's post, I read it immediately. I am always interested in reading Synthzone members opinions on new keyboards. Whenever I read negative posts on the G70 always wondered about the organs and pianos. They could not be that bad. So I was not surprised when Fran said, "This Grand X piano is way better than my G1000[favorite piano]. If you played naked piano , I would want the Grand X"
"The organ module section is just unsurpassed..only equalled by Roland's VK and VR instruments...". Now that makes sense.
Fran can express his opinion anytime he wants on this forum. (He's going to anyways)
Starkeeper


[This message has been edited by Starkeeper (edited 07-18-2006).]

It just makes me laugh how defensive people can get when something negative is said about a particular keyboard they own or the company that makes it.

I like them all (some more than others). I could care less if someone was on here everyday trashing a keyboard company or a model I own. So what! If you don't want to read a members dislikes about a keyboard than SIMPLY DON'T READ THE POST! Why read the thing, then bitch about having to read it? If you see it's negative, and you're a firm support of whatever maker the post speaks ill of, it's YOU who decides to read it or not. No one's forcing anyone to read the posts.

Like it or not it's the negative posts that DO help in the end. Makers NEED to see the good AND THE BAD!

Fran doesn't like some things about Yamaha's T2--well so the hell what, does he have the right to speak ill of it--yes he does. The board clearly doesn't fit his needs. If he says something bad about it, does it take away from YOUR Tyros 2? Has your re-sale value suddenly gone down? Do you find your T2 in the corner of your studio crying because someone flung poo at it?

Squeak



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-18-2006).]

Squeak: Personal opinions expressed are fine, but when they're made BEFORE having actually played the keyboard, or at least received an in person live demo of it, it's a DIS-SERVICE to the newer members here looking to senior SZ members & pro players for keyboard purchase guidance.

I recommend holding off attacking a keyboard until ones at least had the chance to play (audition) it themself. This is my case in point with Fran, as he spent the last 6 months touting G70 and putting down Tyros2 even though he never saw one in person until very recently. - Scott

QUOTE: Mate why dont you go and post in a Roland forum. You know that the majority of people in this forum are Yamaha owners.

We all know Yamaha shits on Roland but we dont go plastering it in everyones face to make a name for ourselves...

If Roland suits your playing style and taste more than Yamaha, fine, tell us once then keep the rest to yourself.

We arent here to talk down on or 'trash' eachothers keyboards, although You seem to do that alot

Im sure other peope in here will agree... UNQUOTE

THIS is the post that got my back up.......... up to this point it all seemed friendly and professional.

The whole point of the debate over which arranger works best FOR EACH OF US is to state WHY.......... There's no point in just going 'BrandX is the best' - tell us why, maybe we'll learn something, maybe we'll point out a better way. But no-one is paying me a cent to hawk for Roland, and I doubt any of the rest of us (with the exception of George Kaye and Lionstracs and a few other retailers) are making any money selling arrangers. We're here to discuss our thoughts, not proselytize them.....

There is a difference between offering an opinion or a critique and just being plain obnoxious. Some of us recognize the difference. Seems strangely reminiscent of the "small pen*s " syndrome.

chas

[This message has been edited by cgiles (edited 07-18-2006).]

[This message has been edited by cgiles (edited 07-18-2006).]

I never make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect

Ian

Ian. Thank you for your excellent 'words of wisdom'. I'm printing out and posting this to my PC monitor.

Scott

Scott never happened..I never praised something I haven't played, and never condemned anything I never played...Maybe you are referring to a company's past history...And for you guys that don't like my personal comments about equipment.. tough , get a life...Kla 4..anytime you want a playing contest[no midi files] let me know...The only difference between me and most of you critics...I know what it takes to do the top jobs...I can get as much work as I want because I use all the tools...If I have to play live ..I do[and I don't mean arranger mode]..I am talking left hand bass, piano and organ type of playing..

If needed I use arranger mode..Same with SMF's and MP3's....

You guys get too bent out of shape over nothing....

Be professionals...look at the reasons stated when someone prefers certain features of a giving brand...Look past your own nose....GOT IT!!!!

This is my last comments about this nonsense..I will let Diki and Squeak handle you guys...

Since this post was "My First impressions of the G70..."if you don't like it, read another post..

I plan on going back next week and spend some more time with the G70...Who knows maybe I'll bring one home....

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 07-18-2006).]

People do get bent out of shape here (I too am guilty of it as well), but we have to look past our "own" needs when boasting about keyboards. We have to consider that what works for us doesn't work for someone else, and maybe our sheer excitement for the keyboard we have may at times hinder our ability to see past ourselves, and that can prevent us from better understanding what others look for in a keyboard.

I will say that the piss'n contest and the mine's bigger than yours attitude can get out of hand at times too... Hopefully it doesn't get to the point of us all throwing them out on the table and measuring

However, the next time I get hate mail from ANYONE on the Zone.., I'm saying the hell with it and laying the members cards out on the table! I got several hate mails because my review of the PSR-3000 wasn't favorable.

Squeak


[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-18-2006).]

Hi Fran, I see you can't take it anymore so it's Bubble and Squeak to the rescue





[This message has been edited by Craig_UK (edited 07-18-2006).]

Hey, I'm winning that baby hands down, even if I just stepped out of a cold pool .

chas

-------------------------------------------
Hey, I'm winning that baby hands down, even if I just stepped out of a cold pool .

chas
--------------------------------------------

Don't get too excited yet. I wear 3 legged pants and 3 sneakers

Squeak

I had a buddy who had the same problem with very short legs.

Ian

My pant size is 34/32, and I gots some big feet.

Squeak

Don't use my dining table...Use Scott's..

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 07-18-2006).]

I feel your pain. I, for instance, can't wear Bermuda Shorts.....BTW, ever notice how some things seem to go together....like say, uh, G1000 and Tune1000 .

chas

This is getting nasty and I don't like it.

A few comments:
I have just re-read Fran's comments in this thread, and nowhere did I see a single stab at the Tyros2 owners. He did say "If I were a Tyros owner, I would swap", but IMHO, he is just expressing his own preference for one instrument over another, as someone who has tried both. In fact, this is very much in keeping with the rest of his review, where he is saying that he is providing his own subjective evaluation of the G70.

I don't see the reasons for the over-sensitive responses of the Yamaha devotees, other than the possiblity that Fran's post hits a sore nerve with them.

If anything, Fran's comments are somewhat of a putdown of the G70, as compared to the old G1000 and the Discover5. However, to me they seem quite objective (for a keyboard review), and I read them with great interest.

In the past there has been some animosity here between the devotees of various keyboards. While some of the Roland afficionados (mostly from Europe) had been obviously nasty in their putdowns of other brands, I don't recall any such comments from Fran. It is well known that he prefers Roland sound, much as Scott Yee may prefer Yamaha sound, or someone else may like the Korg or Technics sound better. Indeed, most of Fran's posts indicate this preference. Nonetheless, while I recall a number of his comments about other brands being tongue-in-cheek, I don't feel that any of them were offensive to individuals, any more than my own comments about the heavy weight (or insufficient polyphony or only 61 keys) of some of the newere crop of arrangers was a putdown to any one individual.

While I share Fran's preference for the Roland sound, there is no love-in between us. We have disagreed on a number of occasionis in the past. However, I do respect Fran and his opinions, the same as I respect the opinions of most other old (and new) members of this forum, all for the reason that I learn a lot from their posts.

Please remember that there is no perfect arranger, which will satisfy everyone (at least not yet). With each instrument you have some advantages and some shortcomings. Reading the opinions of others about those should help us all evaluate these for ourselves. It should also help the manufacturers understan what we, the users, want, and hopefully come up with the better instruments in the future. That's why the discussions and disagreements are good, but the nasty and offensive posts are not.

BTW, I truly think that it is childish for someone to pick up his toys and leave just because some knucklehead had offended him in their posts - when that happens, we all lose out. However, it is responsibility of each one of us to speak up when we see uncivil, offensive, nasty stuff in a post.

Regards

I guess its probably better to give a review of a keyboard that u have played and not if u have only listened to demos online...because we all know that companies often make the demos sound better than how the keyboard sounds when u actually play one. I played the g70 for an hour and hated it. I played the tyros2 and thought it was fantastic...best ever. Another person will say the opposite. Different strokes for different folks...thats cool with me.

.....Road Trip?

I am glad I get some support in defending the G70 against all the attacks of some Yamaha players.
Wis where are you, there are more of us.But we know there are no bad keyboards.

I'll be getting my hands on a G70 tomorrow morning finally !!!!.....Fran & I will be going on a Road Trip to a store that has one about an hour away where he actually demoed one there the other day & needs to get deeper into it this time around....
I have mixed feelings about even why I have a Tyros2 not that its a bad KB far from that, it sounds great after I set it up the way I LIKE IT,...Its funny but I feel like its a bit TOO Much keyboard for MY NEEDS with so many features that I just will NEVER use & a few that I WISH I really had ....I'm not saying I'm gonna buy a G70 tomorrow ...BUT, I will take a long deep look and play one with an open mind for MY NEEDS for sure...
we'll see soon enough....more to come.




[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 07-19-2006).]

Dnj......... take an especially long hard look at the Makeup Tools section on the G70. If tweaking a Style or SMF to your own personal taste (rather than how it sounds OOTB) is important to you, here is, I think, one of the critical differences between the two. The G70's 'tweaking tools' are SO fast and intuitive, it makes it so much more likely that you will do it - sometimes the sheer time involved to do something hard makes it too much of a PITA to do!

Take a close look at how quick and easy it is to tweak drums WITHIN the drumkit, and adjust dynamics, not just volumes......... All the better to make your arranger sound like YOUR arranger........

Diki, Thanks for the info...I'm out the door as we speak to check out the G70 at the store this morning.....I will certainly check out the makeup tool & much more. Roland guru Fran C. will be by my side for guidance also, can't wait to get my hands on one.

Sorry, but I just sort of 'tuned out' somewhere around the middle of page 2 of this topic with all the abrasion created by opinions expressed.

I liked Ian McNill's maxim about not arguing with people whose opinions are not respected.

For the benefit of all those who are 'rubbed the wrong way' at times, and we all are, I guess, I would add this:

You can not control what people say or do, but you can control how you react to it.