I have been reading synthzone posts for a long time and have decided to finally get more involved. Usually whatever question I have has already been asked by someone else and I am able get all the info I need just lurking in the shadows.

I have recently become interested in softsynths or virtual instruments in a quest for the highest quality sounds available. Since many of you have already tested a number of the current products perhaps you can offer some recommendations and advice.

I need these for live performance so the times required for loading is a factor. If one uses a very fast processor and lots of memory can this “Loading time” issue be allieviated?

I have looked at the web site for East West/Quantum Leap’s Symphonic Orch and Colossus. These would be at the upper end of what I may be willing to spend $$$.

I’ve also looked into Gigastudio3, Kontact, and Bandstand which are more favorably priced. But I don’t want to make a purchase based on price alone since quality is the reason for beginning this quest. Any info you can offer will be greatly appreciated!

the advantage of getting a software set-up is the possibillity to run as many vst's as you want (harware depending numbers)

First get a good vst host/ or sequencer. I am using OMB with chainer as a vst host.

I'd use bandstand for GM sounds (its very good and affordable.

I am totally intoo NI (native instruments as base of my setup right now

Kontakt (with GPO)
Kompakt (with colossus)
Reaktor
Guyitar combo
Bandstand (general midi)
Absynth
Akoustik Piano (Not as good piano as Steinberg the grand)
FM7 remember yamaha
Elektrik piano for elektrik rhodes and such
Pro 53
B4 II for my B3 sounds

but also from other makers:

steinberg the grand for my mainpiano sound.
Steinberg virtual bassist
Steinberg virtual guitarist
Korg the legaccy collection.
Tassman for some great phisical modelling
Arturia Brass ...Physical modelling brass

All these Vst instruments together give me a very good sound.

For orchestral sounds i like Kompakt with Colossus better then Kontakt with GPO, but then GPO is much cheeper and leaves room in the budget for other things.


[This message has been edited by Bachus (edited 04-23-2006).]

Nice collection of virtuals there. I like Chainer as well. it's one excellent host that is stable as a rock.

A local musician friend has Bandstand and my experiences with it were not very good. It took too long to load patches for it ( he has a very fast computer ) to be useful to me, and in the end he and I both agreed that it didn't sound a whole lot better than the freeware SGM180 soundfont that we A/B'd it against, in spite of having approx 10 times as much sample rom.

He just got Hypersonic 2 as well, dongle and all, and I went again to his place to demo it. I liked what I heard. I don't necessarily think the GM patches were superior to Bandstand's, but they loaded much faster. Also, for me, most of the Non GM voices were at least on par with their counterparts in my Motif ES, and in quite a few cases I liked them better.

I like the NI stuff as well. Although I'm tempted to try Arturia's Prophet, my experiences with their Moog and CSV80 emulations leaves me thinking I probably am better off sticking with the Pro 53. The Arturia emulations I mention sound wonderful, but they also suck up a ton of CPU and don't always respond the way they are supposed to inside of some of my hosts.

Absynth totally rocks, and in my mind covers much of the same ground as the Roland V synth, but with more patches that can actually sit well in a mix. B4 is for me better than having the real thing, mainly because it plays so well out of my four and a half pound laptop.

FM7 does the old yamaha DX7 very well, ( you can load the old hardware patch setups into it ) and it also goes beyond it. I'd probably get it if I didn't already have Sytrus, Image Line's FM based soft synth.

In addition to these my favs are : Korg legacy collection including the Wavestation, Polysix, and M1. Finally I have an M1 that works every time I fire it up, unlike my original hardware version. I doubt anyone could ever tell the difference in sound. The Poly six emulation is also dead on ( I had a Polysix as well ). I never had a Wavestation, but man it just rocks in software.

I also like the Plugsound Fretted, drum and keyboard modules.

My favorite analog emulator is still RGC Audio's Pentagon, although Imposocar, which goes after a different sound, is right up there as well.

Some great freewares are out there too: Minimogue VA sounds fat and even has a variable control to let you emulate the oscillator drift that a FReal Mini Moog would produce.

Synth 1 is an absolute killer freebie, based somewhat on a Nord Lead but also capable of sounds you'd likely never get from a Nord.

AJ

When are they going to make a PC/LT softsynth arranger setup that will rival a Stand alone Arranger KB/Module for live gigs on stage......with enough Flexiblity & Fast Navagation for live performance including sounds, style play, smf, mp3, etc etc? Until that time I steer away from all the softsynth stuff......I havnt found anything even close yet, but Im still hoping in the future it will come to market .......am I wrong?

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 04-24-2006).]

Donny,
IMO, it definitely will come, keyboards are basically dedicated cpu, with software, ROM, hard drive, monitor, etc.. Just like a real computer. The weakness in the softsynth world at the moment, IMO, is the size of the samples. If they were compressed, or maximized, as is done in hardware keyboards, softsynths would rule. The PSR3000 has a what, 64MB voice ROM. Frank has gigabytes of voices. Hypersonic 2 looks like a step in the right direction.

AJ,
Can you elaborate on Hypersonic 2. Is it better then SGM180? What about the Organ emulations? Are there voices on Hypersonic 2 that are usueable as lead voices? The demos I've hear sound relly good as accompaniment. Did you hear the acoustic bass? I think this was a voice that sounded like a super articulated voice!!!
Starkeeper

[This message has been edited by Starkeeper (edited 04-24-2006).]

[This message has been edited by Starkeeper (edited 04-24-2006).]

Donny,

If I had the technical ( computer ) skills needed, I'd consider building one myself, with all of the styles and sounds already inside, but with the option of course of adding any DX / VST plugs as well.

I think OMB is already good enough as far as navigation goes. As I said before, I find it just as easy to use as any arranger I've ever owned. The caveat of course is matching the right styles to the right sounds. It's pretty much the equivalent of importing styles from another arranger and trying to make them sound as good as ( or even better than ) your arranger's internal ones. Using all of the sound modules, samples and Vsti's I have, I can get the Korg styles, for example, to sound as good and in some cases better in my soft arranger than they sound on the PA80. This can however, take a lot of work, using several different modules / sample sets, etc, as I've yet to find any all in one soft modules that cover every type of instrument.

What really makes a difference to me are the lead voices though. My PA80 pales in comparison, and even the best Yamaha sounds lag behind for me.. and I happen to like many of Yamaha's lead voices better than their counterpatrts on the PA80.

Starkeeper,

I think SGM180 sounds come close to Hypersonic's GM set.. and I think both are very good. My SGM180 is modified though, so that also makes a difference. I like Hypersonic's GM set as well if not better than Bandstand overall. Mainly I liked that they loaded quickly. What I liked most about Hypersonic was the non GM ( lead ) voices. The basses and drums are excellent, along with many of the acoustic instruments, and there are a multitude of outstanding Digital synth patches and soundscapes. The latter is where HS2 really shines, and I always felt the Motif / Mo ES to be weak in the synth sound areas vs the other of the big 3. I didn't give the organs enough of a test drive though to say how much I like them vs other stuff I have.

Really, I think of HS2 as something like a Motif ES inside a computer, only with better sounds and effects, but also without the arps and sequencer. Then again that's what apps like Sonar, Cubase are for.... or for pattern building FL Studio, Orion, and Energy XT are for....

AJ


[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 04-24-2006).]

Thanks everyone for your responses. There are so many choices that sorting them out can be quite a daunting task. But the quest for quality is worth the effort.

Bachus, that’s quite an array of virtual instruments, I’ll certainly have to start much smaller initially but what you have put together would be a great goal to work towards. Though I haven’t heard it in person I do like what I’ve read about Native Instruments especially Kontakt and Bandstand and it seems that almost everyone agrees that B4II is the best Hammond emulation available.

I had originally wanted to stay away from Steinberg because of the whole dongle thing but I must admit that their Virtual Guitarist, Virtual Bassist, and Virtual Drummer appear to be the perfect tools to use for creating great custom styles.
I noticed that you use Steinberg’s The Grand as your main piano. I have considered Synthology’s Ivory. But everyone’s take on the perfect piano sound is so subjective. Thank you for bringing the vst host Chainer to my attention as I had not looked at it before. It looks very promising as a virtual rack to hold the various instruments.

AJ thanks for the info on Hypersonic II that’s good to know that it can load faster. Some of the titles you mentioned I am not familiar with at all but I will do some internet searches to check them out.

Donny & Starkeeper I agree with you both that a softsynth / arranger setup with the speed, stability, and ease of use of a stand alone keyboard is a definite need and surely can’t be too far in the future. To that end I’m still keeping a close eye on Wersi and Lionstracs. If the Wersi Ikarus had 88 hammer action keys it would be a definite contender for me and on the Lionstracs Mediastation, I’ll reserve judgment until I can demo it for myself.

I noticed that no one has mentioned Tascam’s Giga Studio 3. The $129.00 for the 10 GB of samples in the ensemble version seems like a good deal but I don’t know how fast the samples may load. Does anyone have any experience with GS3?

Anyway thanks and keep the responses coming. I’m learning a lot from you guys.

Bluezplayer, I agree with many of your comments. In addition, I would say to DNJ that I am so used to my setup that I can move as quickly as anyone on a hardware based arranger system. Yes the control surface is not as good but you can work around it and can get the job done quite nicely.

Furthermore, you may know that NI are working on Bandstand to provide a smaller wavetable that will load instantly in their next update. In addition, you will have the choice of the larger wavetable where higher quality of sound my be required. I will likely not relinquish my use of kontakt and very large (high quality) samples for my lead instruments. Of late I have been making use of the scripting features in kontakt (harmonizers, echoes, repeats, and so on)....very exciting.


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 04-25-2006).]

Bluezplayer,
HS2 has an arpeggiator. It has some ready made arpeggios and if I remember well you can import midi files to use as phrases. Haven't used that though. Are we talking about the same thing?

Yes we are talking about the same thing. Now that you mention it I have heard about the arpeggiator in HS2 but I didn't even think about this when I was checking it out. Thanks for that Trident.

AJ



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 04-25-2006).]

AJ, Frank...I downloaded the 79 meg SGM180...
What do I do with it now?

I use Forte to host Hyper Canvas, Super Quartet, VSCDXi, M-Audio Key Rig, Orchestral and B4...

I never used fonts..How do I set up to try the SGM180?

Details please!!

Sample size will not be a sad thing, as many of the top knotch samplers that use Gigasampler format (like Gigastudio and Kontakt) play these samples directly from disk. And so not needing huge ammounts of memmory (though i would atleast get 2 gigs in my main DAW)

I am trying to figure out which samplers use direct from disk playing. I have 2 sets of Raid 0 paired disks in my Computer. which makes fast diskuse easy.

Fran,

You'll need to unzip the SGM180 font and place it in the folder of your choice ( It inflates to approx 180 mb ). You will then need to open it up in a soundfont compatible sampler or app, or as the soundfont for a Soundblaster card if you have one of those.

If you don't have a soundfont capable app, here is the link to one that you can use ( it's freeware too btw ): http://www.rgcaudio.com/sfz.htm

SFZ will open up as a VST plugin in your favorite host. Then you simply identify the folder where your SGM180 and other soundfonts are kept, and load them into SFZ from there.

AJ

Believe you need "Live Synth PRO" or some other Dxi host.
Frank can confirm that.
AJ will have laternatives.
If you get this working. Let us know what your impressions are.
Star

AJ, Frank, Star...I have decided to purchase BandStand tomorrow..Prepaid order..Do you guys think ..I, as a happy Hyper Canvas user..will be pleased with Band Stand...

I am hoping I can use it in the same manner as Hyper Canvas..Forte host, VanBasco player, to play SMF's...and a real time part[s] live with a keyboard controller..

Pull no punches..Is it a good thing or not worth the upgrade...Since I have not been able to demo at any place[stores], only the MP3 demos/including the SMF to compare my Hyper Canvas...your input is vital...

In my comparison, some things I liked over the Hyper Canvas, and other things[clarity] I did prefer Hyper Canvas..

If this Bandstand is "buggy" ...it will drive me "Buggy"..


BTW, I tried to get the soundfonts up and running without success..

Fran, Bandstand is not ready for general live performances given it takes to long to load the instruments. This causes significant problems when there are changes in instruments in the middle of a style or midi file. The SGM180 would be a better choice until NI comes up with a smaller wavetable for Bandstand. For lead instruments there are better quality wavetables, e.g., Colossus, GPO, JABB, etc.

I agree with Frank concerning Bandstand.

Fran, As I think about what you are looking to do, I realize that SFZ ( the freeware version ) isn't a good choice, because I think it only allows for one channel of playback per instance.

I use Live synth pro to host the SGM180, and it works like a charm, but it is no longer in production. Perhaps Frank or someone else here has a better solution. If not, I can test some of the other apps I have and give you a report on how they work.

AJ

I got one for you Fran. Kenneth Rundt's Synthfont. It's freeware. I had downloaded this quite a while back but never really tried it. It's available here: http://www.synthfont.com/

I just dl'd the updated version, set it up, made SGM180 the default Soundfont, and voila, it works like a charm, took less than 5 minutes to get it up and running after downloading. It plays my midifiles from within the program and allows me to load any soundfont I want, or any combination of soundfonts or vsti's. So if you wanted, you could assign B4 for an organ part, SGM180 for the rythym parts, and another Vsti, such as Plugsound's Fretted for the guitars, and then save this as an arrangement so it can be opened the same way next time. I think there is a vst version as well that will allow synthfont to open from within a host sequencer.

Kenneth also provides a free software named "Viena", which is very much like the Vienna soundfont editor made available by creative for their Soundblaster sf compatible cards. The main difference is that you don't need a SB card to use Kenneth's version.

AJ




[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 04-25-2006).]

I think that they should just like Kontakt and gigasampler make Bandstand samples play directly from disk. and so illiminating load times. Next to that Most vst's are only suited for studio and home use because of loading times.

But there is a workaround for this problem Fran, if a midi track has instrument changes, set this part of your track as a different new track, most sequencershave more then 16 tracks, adn GM is still only 16 tracks.

This will be a problem though if you use OMB styles that have midi instrument changes. Maybe you can make the style change output channel instead of instrument, I am just a starter with OMB though.

[This message has been edited by Bachus (edited 04-25-2006).]

Fran,
let me repeat what Frank said. Bandstand takes "ages" (5-20 seconds) to load all instruments when my keyboard sends program changes, and we are talking about drums, bass and 3 other instruments. (Styles in the Casio are 5 tracks).

When you try to load a midi file, it takes a lot more. I had to play the midi file, wait till it got to the program changes in the first (empty) measure , pause it, let it load and then continue playing to listen to it. Program changes within the song were even worse.

It sounds A LOT more "crisp" than Hypercanvas, especially if you play them head to head. It sounds equal or a little better than KeyRig GM that I think you already have.

On the other hand, electric guitars were a lot better in Hypercanvas.

Hypersonic 2 sounds as good as Bandstand in GM mode, and in synth mode will amaze you.
Don't rush.

Hi Guys,
I'm back, my laptop's up & running.
I thought I'd fried it.
Hubby's been stuck in bed for the last couple of months, so we weren't able to make the 2 hour trip to sydney to see if it was repairable.

Rang Dell to find out where to take it. The techie had me pulling it apart over the phone, removing battery, pushing buttons, then removing hardrive , then the memory chips. Still looked dead with just an occasional flicker.
At the end of it all, I was offered an extension to my warranty & they'd fix it. $1,000AUD for the 1 year extension.
I decided no, as for an extra $400 to $500 I'd get a brand new one with 1gig memory ( instead 0f 512mb, dvd burner & double size hardrive.

Anyway with nothing to lose I kept unplugging & swapping round the memory chips. All of a sudden it sprang back to life. So fingers crossed.

Best part is , I've got all my soundfont edits back & backed up this time, so I haven't lost months worth of work.

I'll give it a few more days, ( hopefully still working) and then I'll consider upgrading the memory & try & decide what new softsynths to add to the system.

Keep the suggestions rolling.

best wishes
Rikki

Fran, I still hope that NI's updates on Bandstand will make it a very worthy contender. There is talk of being able to edit voices in kontakt and being able to replace instruments with those of your choice. So I plan on staying with Bandstand. If you play in high end restaurants or book stores then the slow loading of Bandstand is not as much of an issue but for anything else it is. In general, I like the sound of Bandstand and given I am heavily invested in NI I will stay with it.

I should add that Bandstand does have the direct from disk streaming but even with this feature turned on the loading times are to slow.


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 04-26-2006).]

Given that LiveSynth Pro is out of production, I could make a copy available to those who require it. I would agree with Bluezplayer that SynthFont is a very good choice/alternative.

Thanks guys...I am going to wait ..till Banstand is more favorable..

AJ, I downloaded the last font player and it does work..For some reason the downloaded SGM180 fonts can not be found..I must have installed it wrong..Since you recently installed it again...can you detail how you installed from the time you open the zip file?

I played the Kennith player with the small font size wavs, but want to check out the larger SGM180.

Frank I would appreciate a copy..I would like to check it out..Thanks

I simply unzipped SGM180 into it's own folder in my Vst Plug in folder ( You could use any directory you choose ). Then in Synth Font's file menu, near the bottom it asks for default Font. just go to whereever you placed SGM180 and select it.

Fran, Synth Font is a good app, but I recommend Live Synth Pro over it. It's so straightforward to use, and the SGM180 actually sounds better in it. Why ? because the SGM180 also comes with built in Reverb and Chorus effects that will be activated and adjusted as per the data each particular midi file sends it. All you need to do is check the boxes in LSP for Chorus and Reverb.

Synth Font does not automatically use the included effects in SGM180, although you could add your own Vst effects. LSP is just more straightforward to use. Set it ( pick your Soundfont ) and Forget it.

It has been a long time since I downloaded it, so I'm also not certain whether SGM180 unzips to an SF2 file or a SF ark file. If it is SF2, it should load right up in your SF player, but if it's the latter, then you will need the SF ark extraction tool to get the Soundfont into it's proper state. The tool is available at either SF2Midi.com or Soundfont.it .

AJ



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 04-26-2006).]

Great news Rikki. Congratulations on getting it going.
Starkeeper

AJ..success..I got the SGM180 to work with Kenneth's program..It does sound good, maybe not as full and punchy as Hyper Canvas..Very similar sounding to the VSCDXi..
Is there a way to run the fonts in the background and select from the explorer window...rather than with in the Player program window?

If Frank sends me the other program , I will give it a try with SGM180..

Fran,
You have new mail. (LSP)
Starkeeper

[This message has been edited by Starkeeper (edited 04-26-2006).]

SGM180 Free
Hyper Canvas $169.99
Hypersonic 2 $300.00. It also comes with a standalone version. (No need of vst host).
Starkeeper

Not really sure if this is the right answer to that question Fran, but you can open Midi files from the File menu in SF. The only thing I do know for sure is that the way I have Synth Font setup it isn't utilizing the effects section of SGM180.

AJ

I know that Frank finds the Banstand too slow for live use at the present time. Has anyone tried Garritan Jazz and Bigband.

I am in the same boat, in that I am looking for a program to go into my Receptor that can handle fast program changes. I am looking at the other programs mentioned, as well.

WOW,,,I got the Live Synth Pro working with SGM180 fonts,,,using Forte as a host..
This set up allows me to use VanBasco player with my windows explorer ...
This is how I prefer to play sequences..

The set up really sounds good..effects are also working..

There are a few drum kit problems[like Yamaha}..I will have to see if the problem is related to a drum transpose[they work fine with my other soft synths]..

Any suggestion?

This set up also has a little problem ..loss time while loading program changes for a SMF.

Thanks to everyone for your help..that I could experience sound fonts...

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 04-26-2006).]

Fran I assume you don't need a copy of LiveSynth Pro. If you do let me know and I will send you a copy.

Bernie9, I have both Garritan GPO and J&BB and the sounds are larger in size and higher quality sounds as compared with Bandstand. As a result they would not be suitable for quick loads into styles or midi files. The instruments are very good for use for lead or melody parts. I setup 8 or so instruments on 8 separate channels and call them up instantly by changing channels. I set these instruments by the genre of music I wish to play, e.g., Jazz, country, etc. The loading of 8 large instruments on my fast computer is about 30 seconds. So for lead instruments it is a piece of cake...plus it sounds so good!!!

In kontakt you can setup a multi with program numbers. Once you load this multi you can send it program changes to change the instruments instantly. You would need to know in advance which instruments you will need to include in the multi. The more you include the longer the initial load times. This is not a bad alternative to consider.

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 04-27-2006).]

Hi Fran,
I also use Live Synth Pro with the soundfonts.
There's quite a few commercial ones available also, though whether or not they're worth the expense is debateable.
There seem to be a mix of good & bad instruments in all of them.
I actually started splitting all of mine up to try and put together the most suitable instruments for me.

I sometimes also just use my Audigy nx 2 usb sound card instead of Livesynth pro etc. The soundcard gives me access to Creative's Vienna soundfont editor. ( not to be confused with Viena).

I find them very versatile.

The problem with some of the psr drum styles is the XG drum mapping, ie you get handclaps where you should have brushes playing.

I think there's a couple of sets of soundfonts that have have xg mapping

Another xg soundfont ( free)
Synergi ( not free ).

I was putting together an xg drumset before my computer crashed, now I've forgotten where I was up to.

With editors you can actually edit a font & even replace instruments.
Other option would be to edit the style.

best wishes
Rikki

[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 04-26-2006).]

I did an A/B yesterday with Bandstand and Hypersonic2 GM. I loaded both of them on Forte, set HS2 in GM mode, set Midi Yoke as midi output on WinXP Control Panel and playd a midi file on Windows Media Player. Then I simply muted and unmuted the appropriate rack, to switch between them instantaneously, while the midi played. That way I can even have them both play at the same time.

I turned off reverb and chorus effects in both racks after a while.

Note: on 96 KHz, my PC could NOT cope with Bandstand on my attempt to play a busy style or a complex midifile. I had to turn Forte to 48KHz playback to be able to continue without hiccups.

On saxes, clarinets, flutes etc, Banstand wins... It feels more "real life" like, whatever that means. They sound more like instruments on a CD, vibrato and all. HS2 sounds more "keyboard like", much more "simple" sounding.

On the other hand, HS2 sounds like it has the high freqs turned up a little, it is more crisp.

Drums, I couldn't decide, maybe Bandstand has an edge, maybe it is just me.

After turning off the effects, I noticed that Banstand still sounds like it has some sort of Reverb built in the sounds, while HS2 sounds dry.

I have a lot of midis I found on the net over the years, that are specifically made for Roland Sound Canvas, even from Roland itself. These sound a better on HS2.

StarKeeper, Rikki, I still can't figure out how to use Cakewalk to play a midi file and have it sound from within Forte.



[This message has been edited by trident (edited 04-26-2006).]

Frank
Thank you for the info. I set up Colossus the same way, i.e. multi's on several channels. On Receptor, the load time is about 15 seconds for these large samples. Like you say, they are fine for leads.

The Colossus samples, being orchestral, need tweaking of ADSR, and modulation to sound like all around lead instruments. For example, the trumpet might need a shorter attack with delayed vibrato, and a dirtier filter setting. Do you find the other aforementioned products the same in that respect ?

Bernie

Bernie, I agree some tweaking of the Colossus Instruments improves the sound. In addition, I use moderate quality effects in my forte Ensemble Host, namely Calkwalk's Sonitus Reverbs, Chorus and Equalizers. These effects are much better than anything you will find in a hardware based arranger or workstation. In addition, these effects are relatively easy on CPU usage.

The same can be said for GPO and J&BB sound libraries. Another feature I am starting to use more and more in kontakt is its scripting feature. Others have writen scripts for legato, harmonizers, etc. which can make a huge difference in the quality of the sound for some of the instruments in the noted libraries. For example: http://www.theokrueger.com/kontakt2.htm
Furthermore, for those who wish to edit soundfonts within LiveSynth Pro or other samplers you could purchase: http://www.soundfaction.com/alive/

Another sampler you could look as is VSampler: http://www.maz-sound.de/


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 04-27-2006).]

Long & McQuade in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, has Hypersonic 2 in stock and loaded on their in-store demo system.
Looks like I will be paying them a visit next week.
They are selling it for $375.00. that is not bad at all for a Canadian price. Could be because of the high Cdn dollar.
Starkeeper