In Europe, it appears to be a done deal; now how do we get the US up to speed in this field? Currently, workstations (which in many cases demand more work) are what dominate this market ... for now.

Your input/suggestions are welcomed.

Thanks,

AJ

AJ, it is not as difficult as it appears..

Music stores...especially the large chain stores, have to have trained , open minded sales people...In all sales , we need to know our products and the competition 's products..

All of the major stores frown on stocking the Top of the line arrangers...why, because they don't know how to sell them...

The US stores need to take a page from the old organ sales days..that is being able to sell the "sizzle and not the steak"..

There is such a large market that is untapped...primarily the over 40 customer...and it is not limited to the home user..

If the arranger keyboards were shown/demo to working keyboardist, in a way that would show the benefits in an all in one keyboard..it can change things..

You would find the stigma of "auto" play, diminished, when one can see the many ways an arranger can be used professionally..

It has to start with the salesperson..
The US market has to be educated, and the big stores have to be willing to step it up...hire the right people and bring in the right people to train the sales force...

Maybe the Roland, Yamaha, Korg, Gem and Ketron companies have to get involved in this training..

If you think I am wrong....just go into any chain store, and ask to see a top model arranger...first you are lucky to find one, if you find one I will bet you , there will be no one to properly sell the instrument..

Right now in the US, most musicians misunderstand the value of arrangers..they are thinking , "little Susie's Casio toy"..

Once in a while we get a chance to show off our arranger keyboards to other musicians...and it becomes an eye opener to them[they are truly amazed]...now if the stores were equipped to do their part..this can come about..

As a side line , we only have to look at our Keyboard mags and see even at this level....they just do not know......

Americans are obessed with celebrity, so an arranger keyboard endorsement by widely recognized respected musicians would bring added legitimacy and interest in arrangers by the american keyboard buying public (both enthusiast & pro alike). For example:

Quincy Jones
Chick Corea
Harry Connick Jr.
Elton John
Rick Wakeman
Stevie Wonder
Keith Emerson
Norah Jones
Scott Yee

Ok, ok, I couldn't resist. the last one is perhaps more wishful thinking.

Scott

TO post, I am paraphrasing Scott Yee:


Originally posted by Scottyee:


ALMOST EVERYONE
is obessed with celebrity, so an arranger keyboard endorsement by widely recognized respected musicians would bring added legitimacy and interest in arrangers by the
NO MATTER WHAT COYNTRY
keyboard buying public (both enthusiast & pro alike). For example:

Quincy Jones
Chick Corea
Harry Connick Jr.
Elton John
Rick Wakeman
Stevie Wonder
Keith Emerson
Norah Jones
Scott Yee
SYNTHZONE MEMBERS
(excluding me)

Ok, ok, I couldn't resist. the last one is perhaps IS wishful thinking.

Theodore


Now that is my opinion. The reason auto makers participate in races is that they want to cram in the public's brain that "if they buy the winning xxxx model, they too will kick butt."

I agree with the above posters also,
a percentage of byers would like a "lots of action with the minimum knowledge" musical instrument, and the arrangers does exactly that, and I am thankful for whoever invented them.

Some others require a TOOL for working with, a sort of musical Swiss knife/Leatherman. A top arranger can do this. The salesmen have to be trained to identify who needs a thing to play along and who needs something to work with, and start from there.

Theodore

[This message has been edited by trident (edited 01-26-2006).]

Great post really the arranger type Keyboard have a Special people to play with it like some one that need a band all the time but not have the musicians. In USA we have a lot of musicians and all want to be in a Band or group and a small group of musicians use the Arrangers for be a 1 man band. I dont know maybe this is the reazon for the US market did not "Awaken" to the Arranger move. This is only my point of view.

Sack

This is my assumptions. Look at the standard musical instrument store. You walk past, in the window there are instruments in the window,if you have an interest you walk in, its quiet, DEAD.Someone approaches you then its up to the salesmen.
Lets look at a different scenario (where possible) you are walking along the road,mall, and you HEAR a keyboard/organ being proffessionally played, you may not see him at this time but you are drawn towards it as also are many others. Outside a store there is a keyboard/organ set up and played really well giving a demonstration to the crowd,and explaining how easy it is to learn and sound good.I reckon this attitude will draw more people into the store, even if you at first had no intention of buying a keyboard.The more successful a store becomes the more quality stock they will get. I believe its all about demo,s by experienced people. mike

PS i just realised that i have been saying the same as Fran, also in every area there are piano/keyboard teachers who could be taught to demo in the stores on weekends and also offer lessons.

[This message has been edited by nardoni2002 (edited 01-27-2006).]

[This message has been edited by nardoni2002 (edited 01-27-2006).]

Hi,
I am dubious about this. Elton John is a great pianist. It's more likely that his keyboardist do a show with arranger keyboards.
In most cases these celebreties play workstation keyboards (like Peter Gabriel who plays Korg).

The local bands use workstation. Therefore I had thought arrangers were for home and amateur players before I stepped upon the SynthZone. Moreover, the only places I can see an arranger in use are crappy bars and restaurants.

Fran is right that the salespersons are not educated. The local ones don't do any sort of advertisement of what they sell. They do not store mid- and high- end keyboards (or store single units). The low-ends are overpriced - partly due to the local tax but mostly because they sell better and the seller's greed.

I was quite surprised when they praised themselves for selling a PSR-1500. In the same time there was a PSR-9000 collecting dust in the store which they were selling for 2000 Euros (in December 2003).

By using such strategy they keep most of the potential buyers away (me too).

George

PS Oops! not December 2003 but 2004. sorry.

[This message has been edited by George V (edited 01-27-2006).]

I first saw an arranger keyboard at a workshop for praise bands given by Maranatha Music, a contemporary Christian music publishing company. They had a Roland rep there and he had a G 800. This was about 10 years ago. He demonstrated to the group that the keyboard could be used as a whole band. At the time I was doing my OMB with left hand bass, right hand playing and a drum machine. I went to my local music dealer and of course he didn't have one so I had him order it for me. It forever changed the way I do things. The demo is the way to go. I used to demonstrate organs in the old days and that really worked. People would get all excited and buy it on the spot. It would be nice to see them catch on here.

Joe

------------------
Songman55
Joe Ayala

More years ago than I would like to admit, I was playing a 12-string guitar along with a programable Roland drum machine. My first encounter with an arranger keyboard sent my head reeling, and I couldn't believe this incredible machine selling for just $500 would do so much. By today's standards it was a piece of junk, but back then it was a gift from heaven.

I fully agree with Fran. Walk into any store, and more often than not a top end music store, and the person behind the counter doesn't know Jack Sh*t about any of the arranger keyboards in the building.

Nearly a decade ago, when my daughter announced she was getting married and the entire free world was invited to the wedding, I decided to take on a part time (40-hours-a-week) job to help defray some of the expense. I went to work at BJ's Wholesale Club in Abingdon, Maryland during their Christmas season, primarily selling cnsumer electronics such as computers, TVs, VCRs, and yes arranger keyboards--they had a half dozen on display.

Selling the computers and TVs was a snap, but the only way you can sell a keyboard is to demonstrate its use. That's exactly what I did. Not only did I manage to sell every keyboard in the store's inventory (about 100 of them), other stores shipped in their unsold keyboards after Christmas season ended and I sold several hundred more during the next few months.

Manufacturers don't take the time to educate dealers and sales people about the intricacies of their keyboards, which I consider a major mistake. However, with the exception of a few, George Kay and Dan01, there are very few dealers that take the time to explore the inner workings of keyboards they sell. The irony of this is most of todays top end keyboards will do a lot more than anyone can imagine, but no one will ever know about it unless they visit forums such as the Synthzone, SVPworld and PSR Tutorial .

Good Luck,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

While I agree with most of your observations, I must also bring up that some of us are at least partly responsible for the fact that the stores don't carry much in the way of arrangers.
How many times have we sought out a dealer and demoed his merchandise, then went back home and bought one over the internet to save money?
It does take money to properly train and compensate a good salesman. It's my belief that in the not-too-distant future there will be only a single handful of music stores in the U.S. Almost all of the individually-owned stores will be forced out of business by the huge internet stores, much as Walmart has caused so many small businesses in small towns to close. The reason for this is that the huge stores can operate on a volume that allows them to make less profit on an individual sale, particulary when they don't have a huge staff of highly-trained sales people.
I have discussed this very situation with my local store. Their point of view is "Why should we invest thousands of dollars in these keyboards when we can use that same money to buy other items on which we can make a much higher profit?"
It takes longer to educate a customer and properly demo an arranger than it does a 7-foot grand piano. One grand piano sale can make the store more money than 25 arranger sales, particularly in the low-end price range of arrangers.
I am told that some of the manufacturers have taken steps to try to make the small stores more competitive in recent years, but it may be too little, too late.
Gary, I also spent some time at the store years ago, selling the early arrangers and organs. At that time you could price a Yamaha PSR 5700, or a PSR70 at a point where the store, the salesman and Yamaha could all make money. If you try to do that now, the customer is savvy enough to go to Sam's Club or Circuit City and buy a WK3200 for $299., or scour the internet for the best deal, with free delivery and no sales tax, AFTER you have spent a couple hours selling him. For sure Circuit City has no one that even knows how to turn the WK on, much less compare the features to something like a Tyros 2, but guess how will sell more keyboards?
This most certainly isn't the entire problem, but I feel it contributes greatly to it.
DonM

Don,
I agree with you. There must be more high quality internet-available video demonstrations of arrangers. I'd highly appreciate that! Not to mention that internet (and SZ in particular) is my only source of information about the new music toys.

I find these video demos very entertaining. They allow me to compare features and sounds of different keyboards and workstations. Unfortunately, these videos are very short in length and cannot show all of the goodies.

Regards,
George

First I have to say that I'm living in europe, so I don't know jack s*** about the american market, but here the impression of arrangers is that they are used by amateurs, lesser musicians, or polish one-man-bands.. And I think a lot of the arrangers don't have enough features or usability to justify the high price. Maybe if you could incorporate more workstation capabilties into the arrangers, they probably would do more. Emphesize on the creative side of the arrangers. A song-writing / creation focussed workstation, with style/arranger capabilities would be the ultmate tool, if you threw inn sampling and audio/mp3 recording and a cd-burner aswell, all in one easy to use interface. Maybe such a thing exists... but I have yet to see one... Maybe the PA1xPro is close?

doc-z

This is a very good and important topic.

I think that everyone’s suggestions are needed to increase the U.S arranger market.

It can not be just one approach but the combination of different approaches.

It is very very important that the sales person in the major music stores 1. Have the major keyboard arrangers and not just the $2 and 300 Yamahas and Casio (I hope that doesn’t offend any one). 2. The sales persons need to know about the capabilities of the arrangers they have and be able to demonstrate them well. They must be able to show how an arranger can be used in a one man band setting, as part of a band, as a composition and production tool and just for home. They must be able to show how you can use an arranger to create and perform original songs using styles on an arranger.

Some time last year I was in GC I was asking about arrangers but they did not have any there. The sales person however said that someone had walked in with a Tyros and could not figure out how to use it. The sales person said that since he was familiar with the Yamaha way of doing things, and he knew how to use the Motif, he was able to show the person how to use the Tyros. The sales person and the other person were amazed with the ease of the Tyros and the number of features and the quality of the sounds. He said they don’t have an arranger on display because “there is not any one around here that would buy them”.

It would also help to have major celebrities endorse and also do demonstrations playing a top-end arranger.

But I think that the manufacturers have to start making their top-end arranger products looking more professional and with the professional gigging musician in mind. Quite a few gigging musicians like toseparate themselves from the at home players. Whether right or wrong, some gigging musicians do not want to know that they are gigging with a keyboard that is an everyday consumer product. You can give the gigging musician the same thing that a home player would get but you can not let it look as if you are doing so.

Also, the manufacturers should think about working on the price. If it is not affordable to the masses all the promotion in the world is not going to increase sales drastically. It will just take one manufacturer to take that risk to develop a good top-end arranger for the gigging and production musician in mind, price it reasonably and market it as such. They may not make as much with one of those reasonably priced top-end arrangers as they would with a regularly priced arranger, but what they would have done is penitrate the market, build brand loyalty and have the ears of persons for other like products they have or will have. One of the ways this could have been done is by arranger modules. Gem and Ketron could have done it but Gem with the Genesys xp did not have the right price and was not willing to sell in the U.S and Ketron with the midjay did not have all the important arranger features on them. And whether for financial or philosophical reasons, they both do not have an aggressive marketing strategy.



[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 01-27-2006).]

In my locale there is a music store that carries an incredible inventory of instruments, music, sound systems, etc. http://www.bananas.com/

Because we have numerous "star" musicians and vocalists living in this area, this very small non-chain store has been able to move amazing amounts of gear. Over the years I have purchased large and and small items from the store (with an understanding that they will "meet a good price" for a good customer) and I know a couple of the VERY knowledgeable staff, ALL of whom are musicians. BTW -- it takes high volume, solid pricing AND a fairly wealthy musician clientele to support trained and dedicated staff IMHO.

10 years ago the store carried both workstations and arranger KB. I bought Yammie 500,500 and 740 models there. I finally had to go online for my PSR9000 in 2003 because the store had dropped all but the low-end models. And added Casio later. Recently I wandered into the shop, looked at the wonderful assortment of almost every Korg, Roland, Alesis, other workstations and into the "arranger sction". 4 low-end Yamaha models -- 4 competitive Casio models. Noting the presence of Yamaha portable digital pianos (no cabinet models) I asked "what about the better arrangers available, including the Tyros?" The answer from these guys serving a very well-off, very professional, worldly and musically oriented locale: "we can't sell them -- people think they are overpriced toys and want to have a real synth (and can afford it) LIKE THE BANDS USE".

Now I, at 67 years, and a former R&B pianist of the fifties, do not relate very closely to the "stars" of today or their music, I admit. I don't sample; I don't compose much modern music; I cannot play "rock" well, so I don't lean towards the workstation world. I then tried to think WHERE locally I might have recently seen/heard of someone playing alone with an arranger KB. No luck; never have I seen one around here. Solo piano (sometimes with a drum machine too, even a vocalist), yes.

At Xmas time I was in a Costco store and stopped to look both at a Suzuki (!!!???) digital piano and a new Yamaha DXxxx model; played both a little. 50-ish Fellow at my elbow asked me if I was a "professional". I gave my usual "no way" grin and shook my head. He then told me he WAS a local pro who played the senior/small gatherings circuit and wanted to get together to BS. I asked him if he thought the local market was stable or expanding, whatever, for one man bands. He said "no -- the boomers, the BIG market coming into play, need NOISE and BAND EXCITEMENT to move them." He allowed as he thought that he was one of the last of the people playing solo around here and when he quit, it was then moving totally to DJ stuff and small live groups. Usually rock, hiphop, rapper, or C&W (modified to whatever it is these days). This guy played what I play -- jazz standards, latin jazz, some pop music, some classical modded, almost NO "rock" or hiphop, etc. He saw his market evaporating; except, perhaps, for the growing senior population. But he would REALLY like club and restaurant venues, too.

So -- folks -- it probably isn't only the quality of sales staff in music stores, or the promotion by the big makers that is determining the fate of arranger gear. It is CULTURE, as exhibited daily in the biggest buying generation sellers have ever seen. I agree totally that extra marketing effort could ramp up the sale and use of arranger-style gear; but I am afraid that advances in computer-oriented sampling, composing and playback may still overshadow whatever new advances in selling arrangers are actually seen. Now I am generalizing, of course; not all market regions are alike, not all populations have the same taste. But it seems to me as I look at CD sales (music trends) and instrument previews (technology trends), that the alligator trails -- as we use to say in Louisiana -- are clear.

My 18-year-old son -- not known for his understanding or tolerance of very much, true -- recently watched me reading contributor pages on "PSR Tutorial", a site I value considerably. He remarked that "gee, Dad, all these people are really much older than YOU, even". Didn't even ask about the music.

Interesting isn't it -- we may in fact see the hot sales of synths and workstations ALSO decline in the future, as the tech revolution makes production and playback less and less dependent on reatime play. The changes are upon us. Enjoy those keys (weighted or not, LOL) as long as you can!

Hey Dave..are we suppose to fill in the blank..We need to read what you wanted to say..

AJ. You would get your answer by visiting a number of the UK Keyboard Retailers.
Perhaps your company would pay for a holiday here...Ha!!!!

[This message has been edited by Graham UK (edited 01-27-2006).]

Scott Yee is on the right track but his thoughts need to go further:

It's not just a matter of "educating the retailers" - retailers won't stock instruments that don't have any momentum, and the problem with arrangers is that they don't get proper marketing. They need to be advertised to musicians and reviewed in popular music magazines properly so that there is demand and interest. Frankly, there isn't an MI store within 400 miles of me that has arrangers - and I'll bet that's because noone is asking for them.

Celebrity endorsements help - and no they don't have to appear on stage with the arranger to make the point - they can use them at home as part of their personal creative process.

Magazine reviews have been short-changing arrangers and we (arranger fans and manufacturers) need to protest that when it happens.

Arranger manufacturers need to put on more expositions to show musicians what is possible with their arrangers. Time for the AJ US Tour 2006. And you might try inviting area arranger players to help out.

Which bring up my final point: maybe it's time for arranger manufacturers to sell directly to consumers. Dealers are fine for a lot of things but are becoming less essential to working musicians, who often shop online anyway. Cutting out dealer markups would mean a better deal for everyone.

I have been following this topic,and I must say that Fran has expressed everything I would say,as well as the great comments from DonM, who address this topic from a different angle.
All comments are right on target.In Canada and especially in my area,where traditional music reigns supreme,the arranger is looked at as a curiousity.
Ian

In this part of the World, it's difficult to even find a dealer who has arrangers in stock. For me (and CoasterTim )it's at least a 2 hour drive to find anyone who has any Yamaha arranger keyboards.

And I might add, it's not like we are in a small market. The Lehigh Valley has a few good music stores, but when you inquire about an arranger keyboard, it's as if you were asking about a UFO.

So, yes marketing needs to improve in the United States, and having a celebrity advertise for you can't hurt. I have never, ever seen on TV, or heard on the radio, any major keyboard maker advertise arranger keyboards. You all need to get the word out.

and ...PLEASE make sure if your an offical dealer of a particular arranger keyboard, have at least one new model in stock..so we can at least demo before we buy.

Is this a problem in Europe?
Judging on the percentage of sales, they must be doing things better accross the pond.

Thanks for the interesting topic

Larry

Ever ask the average car salesman specific questions about their product? Sadly, most just don't know the answer to anything but the price.

In this country, as top end arrangers become more complicated and expensive, they are less and less of a mass merchandise product. That means, it is not practical, according to most business models, to do mass advertising...too much cost per viable contact.

As far as training the average music store salesman...that would be difficult. Most are not dedicated keyboard sales people, and it's much easier to learn basic info on guitars, drums, sound systems, etc.

In this country, volume and stock turns drive the business. the market gets smaller for the top end, more complicated models.

Unless an entirely new business model is developed, greater penetration, trained sales people and corresponding increased volume will be hard to achieve.


Russ

I agree. Good case in point. In Europe, Yamaha Germany UK promote their arrangers thru featured arranger keyboard demonstrations presented by Yamaha artists like Michel Voncken Peter Baartmans, and Martin Harris, of who also host Yamaha sponsored "in store" arranger keyboard clinic demos too. Though Yamaha USA frequently offers in-store demos & clincs for the Motif and other instruments (and presented by official Yamaha artists & clinicians) this is totally missing in the US, when it comes to arrangers. I suppose one can't expect dealers (lest their sales staff) to show much incentive & enthusiasm in promoting & stocking high end arrangers until the manufacterer provides better dealer support of their arranger keyboard product through in store demos, and manufacterer sponsored arranger kb clinics as well. - Scott

QUOTE

Which bring up my final point: maybe it's time for arranger manufacturers to sell directly to consumers. Dealers are fine for a lot of things but are becoming less essential to working musicians, who often shop online anyway. Cutting out dealer markups would mean a better deal for everyone. [/B][/QUOTE]

Esh,I think thats a bit harsh for the majority,the good dealers have been the backbone throughout the time, without these there would have been very little sold, without these, there would be no p/ex,s, nowhere to go for repairs,support and advice. Yep you could go it alone and save a bit of money,you would also be the one who would be talking to a recorded message or the janitor (you don,t have a clue who you are talking to)asking how long will you have to wait for your board repaired/ delivered. A dealer who buys maybe 100 boards a year will get results quicker than,a mr X who buys one on the net and often rings with an enquiry .I agree not all dealers are the same but the good local shop is there for both the pro and the novice.Mike

Hi Fran,

Ya' know, I have so many comments on the remarks made here that I decided it would take far too much of my time at the moment. Having been at NAMM for a week, things have piled up a bit.


------------------
Wm. David McMahan
Nat'l Product and Support Manager
Generalmusic USA
GEM Community Forums

I NEVER shop for keyboards, amps or accessories online UNLESS my local dealers don't stock the item, and they cannot order it for me in a reasonable time frame. I would much rather support my local dealers, and in all the years I've been buying pairs of keyboards, I have yet to purchase the first one online.

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

Esh,I think thats a bit harsh for the majority,the good dealers have been the backbone throughout the time, without these there would have been very little sold, without these, there would be no p/ex,s, nowhere to go for repairs,support and advice. Yep you could go it alone and save a bit of money,you would also be the one who would be talking to a recorded message or the janitor (you don,t have a clue who you are talking to)asking how long will you have to wait for your board repaired/ delivered. A dealer who buys maybe 100 boards a year will get results quicker than,a mr X who buys one on the net and often rings with an enquiry .I agree not all dealers are the same but the good local shop is there for both the pro and the novice.Mike[/B][/QUOTE]

I've worked at music stores and was the guy that people came to for repairs and advice... the things we fixed were out of warranty and most everything else went back to the factory if it didn't work. Support beyond basic operation was often referred to the manufacturer also. And our customers were overwhelmingly music students and hobbyists with pros taking the minority, so the products and services we offered reflected the market. I personally haven't made a keyboard purchase from a local dealer in ten years.

BTW: one thing my wife and I took notice of... we just got our Feb/2006 copy of Keyboard magazine which has an very good review of the Tyros 2 in it (it got a KeyBuy award). Interestingly, Yamaha has no ads for the Tyros 2 in this issue, only ads for their MO's. I found that surprising, especially since the review touts the many "pro synth" features and flat-out says tha Tyros 2 surpasses many top workstations sonically. The only arranger advertised in the issue is the Roland G-70, and that ad shows the keyboard at an extreme angle and calls it a "music workstation". It's a stealth-marketed arranger.

Hi AJ,
don't know about the USA, but in Aust, there seems to be a bit of a stigma attached to using arranger keyboards. They're regarded more as a hobbyist or home user board.Problem is arrangers here are normally sold in stores where digital piano's are sold , ( and electronic organs used to be sold) rather than in the so called "professional" store where synths, workstations, guitars, p.a's etc ( all the cool stuff) haa haa.

Try & tell an 20 year old it's "cool" to play an arranger. They walk in the store, notice it's mainly retirees ( like myself ( haa haa) plonking away on the keys , and they walk back out.

Put the same keyboard in a setting with an array of synths & workstations, point out some of the amazing features, and you've got half a hope.

I think marketing has a lot to do with it, plus it's very difficult to find a store that bothers to keep top of the line arrangers in stock.
Technics was one exception, we had a really great dealer in Sydney. He had all the models.
I had problems before Xmas trying to buy a Yammie, no hope of getting a Tyros 2, & discovered much to my surprise , I couldn't even get a PSR3000 till some time in Jan or Feb 2006. I rang close to a dozen yammie dealers.

Anyway, their loss, Ketron's gain. Discovered we actually had a Ketron dealer in Sydney, and more's the point, he actually keeps the top of the line Ketron
in stock.
Hoping he turns out to be as good as my technics dealer of 15 years. Time will tell.


best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ketron_AJ:
[B]

Interestingly enough, the G70 will not be found in the stores which most Keyboard magazine readers visit (GC, Sam Ash, etc.)

The big difference between Europe and the US is that with the much lower population density, a dealer is exposed to fewer potential customers than in Europe. For that reason, I don't think demonstrations will work as well here. Also, while I suppose an average 20-year old may be impressed seeing his/her favorite band with an arranger on stage or in a video, most people who really use the arranger features would not necessarily be impressed by that. Speaking for myself, I don't give a hoot if some big-name performer is using a particular instrument in a scripted show on stage - their needs are quite different than mine.

As far as stocking the arrangers - by the time I go to a car dealership to look at a car that interests me, I know more than the salesman, and I will consider having him around as a necessary evil. My main goal is to feel the quality of its built and experience driving it. The same is true about an arranger - most users of high-end instruments know how to play and use most features of an arranger, and having a salesman hovering over them is not a necessity.

I would say that for me an ideal shopping experience would be to try purchasing an instrument from a dealership with a sufficiently long return policy (e.g. 30-45 days), try it out for myself, and then decide if that is what I want. It may be helpful to have access to a knowledgeable online resource (e.g. AJ or Dave McMahon, or the like) for some very specific questions about more obscure areas of functionality, and perhaps an instructional DVD that comes with the instrument.

Beyond that, the problem is with the American music tastes - I find that many European hits lend themselves to playing with an arranger, while much of the contemporary stuff that my kids listen to here in the US do not.

REgards,
Alex

My point is that people buy romplers all the time, and arrangers are just romplers with accompaniment, so why not buy an arranger if it can do the same job as the romplers that are sold in every day music stores? Arrangers give the same (or better) sounds for your band but also give you the option of having a solo/duo/trio gigging machine, not to mention a great practice and composing/recording tool. I read posts on other keyboard forums where people who play keyboards still don't know what an arranger is. Marketing is an issue, maybe not the only one but a big one.

[This message has been edited by Esh (edited 01-28-2006).]

Hi AJ

One corny style can blow a sale. Allow dealers to select the styles on the demo, e.g., by shipping the dealer multiple software personality modules to select from. The dealer can then load in lots of styles of interest to customers and leave out ones that will drive customers away. I think some of those oom-pa-pa styles send many young customers running out the door. How about arrangers with no ballroom or folk dance styles, but heavy on rock, blues, etc.

Clif

I think these last few post made some important points and they are all things for the manufacturers to do.

The sounds on an arranger should be of the same or even better quality than that on workstations. Both arrangers and workstation should have the same quality of bread and butter sounds and synth sounds. There should not be that big of a difference with respect to sounds between arrangers and workstations. Yes for marketing reasons you would have to have sounds that would be speciffic to a keyboard, but there should not be that big gap.

The nexthing is the styles. The styles need to cover some of the musical styles that persons would play on workstations. They need to have more hip sounding styles and not styles that just try to mimic songs that have already been done 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 years ago.

The manufacturers need to change the way they think about arrangers. Produce them market them and display them the same way they do workstations. Stop thinking that arrangers are for home players. If you make it for professionals, the home players would still buy it because it would have the arranger features.


I don't know why they have to call some keyboards arrangers and some workstations.

If Yamaha were to make a new keyboard called the "Motif grand" (or what ever name you want to call it), and market it and produce it as the upgrade for the motif S but it has SAV and arranger features, you would see both the "workstation" and the "arranger and home players" go for it.

Changing people's attitudes towards arrangers is a daunting task.
In Yamaha's case,these instruments are designed and sold primarily with the hobbyist in mind.The Tyros is simply an enhanced PSR...it lacks true pro features like balanced line outs,expandability etc.The PSR-9000 pro was the only exception.
Approaching Elton John or Billy Joel or any other keyboard celebrity won't make any difference...they wouldn't be caught dead using one.
Piano players usually resist using an arranger as they need to learn a new and different method for left hand chording.Not very many players want to sacrifice a left hand technique that took them years to develop to have to learn another one so that they can use an arranger.Former organ players have less of a learning curve.
The only real difference between the "arranger" and the "workstation" is the auto-accompaniment...otherwise they have similar features...some workstations now feature phrase recording,using preset licks much like style parts in auto-accompaniment,so the line is blurring somewhat.
Arrangers need a serious revamp in "user style creation"...most players find it too difficult, or the scope of creating a user style is too narrow. It should be easy to make a midi into a style,without the use of external software...some Casio arrangers had this feature....it should be on all arrangers and it should be very easy to use.
Screen information could be further improved for style creation as well....and in the case of Yamaha mega voices...it should be easier to revoice parts that use these voices....a lot sound poor when a non mega is used...SA voices will further compound this problem.
The 61-note versus 76/88-note debate could easily be solved by offering the arranger as a module that could be attached to optional keyboards of varying sizes made to use with it.Simple?
....probably too simple.
Ian

A very interesting post, however I doubt if anything will change on this front, as the days of the Hardware Arranger/Workstation are seriously limited. (In 5 years or so I would say that they will just be a distant memory)
The reason for this is, yes you’ve guessed it the computer, so in the future you will purchase your keyboards as laid out below.
All manufactures will produce keyboards with different layouts of Buttons and Screens, with all variations of keyboard size/feel, you the customer will then purchase the one you feel happy with, all the keyboards will have one thing in common, a standard computer interface that will work with any software arranger/workstation, but they will look and operate just like the old Hardware Arranger/Workstations, (As they are just keyboards they will be stocked in both Workstation and Arranger shops) you will then choose what software instrument(s) you require, such as Tyros, Motif, G70, SD1, Triton etc, then you or the shop owner will load the instrument(s) in, and away you go. (If you want more then one software instrument, then you will just purchase it and load it in)
The future is closer than you think.
Just thought I would give you something else to ponder over.

Bill

Wouldn't that be nice....hopefully not too far away.
Hardware arranger/workstations are certainly sruggling to be all things for all people.
Ian

Bill,
I see you state this opinion in several threads. While I do not disagree with you, these sowftware arrangers have a serious negative side from my hobbyist viewpoint. Here is why:

- Software arrangers run on expensive ($1000 and up) computer configurations. Having in mind the speed in which computers and software arrangers develop I will have to upgrade my home computer on every 2 years. If I ran software arrangers on a laptop it would be even more expensive.

- Controllers will continue to change to meet software arranger's novelties. This means I'll have to spend on a new controller regularly.

- Software price. Software stability is questionable. Computer Operating System stability is also questionable.

- Sound palette price.

With hardware arrangers I spend about 500 euros each 2 years if I want to keep up-to-date with the current keyboards. I can sell my old keyboard to refund a bit of this money. There is no need to upgrade my computer if I want to get a high-end keyboard.

I do believe that hardware arrangers and workstations won't disappear in 5 years. There will be people like me who wouldn't like to depend on computers too much.

George

George: the thing about investing in a computer for music is that it's unlikely you'll use it exclusively for that. I bought a new laptop last fall for running Reason and playing softsynths with but I use it for a hundred other things too. Also you get more technology for your money when you buy a computer rather than a keyboard. That is why software arrangers will eventually come to fruition is because so laptops are coming down in price and many people will own one for other uses anyway.

What may really make an impact on the market would be an arranger controller/software package that are designed to work together. Something like a controller made especially to go with OMB for example. Or a rompler that can be expanded into an arranger when combined with a laptop and dedicated software.

Esh,
I totally agree with you.
On the other hand, a software arranger will fall far beyond my needs and spending that amount of money would be unjustified.

George

[This message has been edited by George V (edited 01-30-2006).]

From what little I know it seems to me arrangers are fine for people who want to make music in more common genres but when it comes to more obscure genres like New Wave or Darkwave or Industrial or whatever Arrangers , even top of the line models just don't have enough sounds for that and lack the styles for it .

So a person who wants to make such music would have to rely on Synths either hardware or software .

A song from "Fiddler On the Roof" comes to mind when I try to answer AJ's question. That song or phrase from a song is "Tradition".

Europe still has strong ethnic and regional traditions when it comes to music. Even the accordion is somewhat still popular there. If you were to look at the Ketron line they include a multitude of those popular European styles in their arrangers.

In the good ole U.S.A. we have very few musical traditions on which we can hold. The people that used to request "In The Mood" or "Misty" are all over the hill, in nursing homes, or dead. They now want "Who Let the Dogs Out" or Rap or some other new musical fad. Ok Ok I know that there are exceptions to that statement but over all I think it is true.

I played a party this summer and there was an excellent trombone player there from Orlando Florida. He saw what my Tyros would do and said, "You could make a lot of money with that in Florida". Why is that? Because Florida is God's waiting room that's why.

From what I've seen the only music that crosses the line between young and old is country. Don Mason can probably attest to this. Even though some of the older country fans do not like the current country.

We as musicians and the manufacturers of our instruments should be setting our sites on songs from the 60's. This market nitch now has all the kids out of the house and has disposable income to spend on live music. They don't want to spend their disposable income on "Moonlight Seranade". They want to hear the songs that were popular when they were young. Songs by the Beatles, Stones, Doors, Turtles, etc.

The big band, latin, and jazz standards have no tradition among these 60's baby boomers. As the American population continues to age these styles will become almost extinct.

Tom

Let's hope you're wrong, Tom. A few years ago the stand-up bass and Hammond B3 were 'almost extinct'. Rod Stewart is raking in the $$ with now, I believe, his 4th CD... and other recording artists are jumping on this bandwagon of introducing a new generation to the standards. The really good music will prevail through the ages.

Absolutely true, GlennT. A new radio station just started in Edmonton and the playlist is a mix of standards mixed in with some modern pop in about a 70/30 ratio.

I hadn't realised just how many pop singers are 'doing a Rod Stewart' and releasing albums of old standards - even Robbie Williams, who really has a handle on the genre. Then add in more young fellas like Michael Buble, Jamie Cullum, Matt Dusk and you'll find there's no shortage of talent. Even Steven Tyler of Aerosmith is getting played with a version of Smile which, incidentally, grates on my ears, and also Bryan Ferry who seems to be shaping up to be the next Tiny Tim, fer crying out loud.

There's a new crop of 'devotees' to the old standards that's made up of people who grew up in the 80's and over the last couple of years have turned on to lounge music (I can remember discovering jazz/standards myself in my thirties).

I think, regardless of generation, a good melody still has a place in music, and long may that continue to be the case.

I agree today's music sucks . I'm more into 80s music like Depeche Mode and I think that's really good music .

That being said if one wanted to make music like Depeche Mode I think an Arranger wouldn't be very good because of the lack of synth sounds .

Darksounds, I use the Tyros 2 and the Korg Trition pro and play quite a few 80's stuff.
Fair enough the Trition has great synth sounds but for some songs by Erasure, Depeche Mode, Ultravox, OMD, Duran Duran, Human League, Eurythmics, Europe, Bon Jovi to name a few, I use my own edited Tyros 2 sounds. You can get some very good sounds from this keyboard if you dig into the editing side. Forget SA which is great edit your own synth and pad sounds. Jean Michelle Jarre eat your heart out lol

I am a baby boomer, and I love the songs of the 60's: Beatles, Stones, Doors, Deep Purple, Dave Clark 5, etc. Also like Santana. Although I still like this music, I also like Contemporary Christian music.
Kevin

When I demoed the WK3500, I was turned off by the excessively busy (IMO ) styles. They had very few Ballad type styles. Casio doesn't have a plethora of styles like Yamaha on the web. It doesn't allow on board style creation, there is no 3rds party style creation software. I walked away.

So, when I walk into a music store and ask to see their arrangers, the salesperson would ask what type of music I like. I would say rock and Contemporary christian (ballad/ pop styles). He would load those up and I would demo the arranger with those styles.

Starkeeper

[This message has been edited by Starkeeper (edited 02-07-2006).]

Getting back to AJ's topic, I believe one of the requiremens is for the arranger keyboard to be strong in all music genre styles and sounds.

I also think the Rod Stewart "Great American Songbook" albums have reopened doors for the younger generation to the great music of the past. I think it's a backlash against the trash that broadcast radio is so fond of. I play to people young and old today and get requests for old standards from both.

Back to the topic: I think there is a market for an Acid keyboard - that is, an arranger keyboard that uses Acid-ized loops specifically. So many people use Acid and Fruity Loops and Garage Band for making quick and easy music now that I suspect we'll see a keyboard made for loops someday.

This is GREAT! This is an exchange of well articulated, well thought out responses by people in varius geographies, of varius ages and levels of experience. There are some differences of opinion, but each contribution has value, and ALL responses reflect courtesy and commitment to the business/art/mechanics of making music.

This is the way it should be!

Thanks,and thanks again to Nigel for making all this possible.


Russ

You guys are all wet and out to lunch!!!
[Just awakening everyone}..

I played an unusual Wildwood crowd this past weekend..usually the average age is around 50 years..
The crowd was an average mid twenties[almost all girls]..
I seen the look on the club owner..worried we may not hold them...She soon turned to smiles, when we were doing all their request[60's and 70's dance music]...They loved it and most returned the following night[staying to close]..

Even the 50's Doo wop stuff works...I think a lot of these "kids" are tired of today's music, and like the change of pace..

And keep it coming! One thing I can say for sure about AJ and Ketron in general... they really do listen to what we say and what we want.

Glenn

IMO, arrangers are way, way, way too much designed for the older crowd. The young are the future and if arrangers are not made more for music from 1955 to the present, there won't be any strides made in the USA.

I hear ya about some of the kids liking standards but I do not see those songs ever again having a MASS following. Time moves on. Even I don't care for many standards earlier than the early 50's. And I love music! Many of the songs talked about on this forum, I've never even heard the song. And I'm 52.

That generation will be dead in less than 20 years. I am talking in general.

I think modern arrangers should defocus on all sounds except the following: piano, organ, synth, guitar, drums. That's about it. Forget sax. Forget flute. Forget horns. Etc. Again, I mean, in general. Make a box that rocks. It's real simple. Rock, pop. Plus, country music touches. (Stringed instuments and styles.)

The styles should reflect music from 1955 to present. That should be the bulk of the styles. Rock, pop and country.

I think country music could make more inroads into more mass appeal in the future. Due to the overwhelming dominance of rap/hiphop/r&b in the pop charts, plus the fact that modern country, for the most part, is actually country-rock of old.

I don't care for rap, hiphop or much of the modern r&b stuff but the kids sure do. Build that into the box.

If I said anything conflicting above, in general, it boils down to make it for music from the birth of rock and roll forward. With a few sounds/styles to cover some standards before that.

Then, build a marketing campaign to appeal to youth.

------------------
Bill
Yamaha PSR2000

Hi, Bill. You have a point about your assesment of where arrangers are heading, but, to me, the world would be a really dreary place if the music spectrum included only country, R&B and Rock.

I'm not talking at all about the generational issues. Modern jazz is the synthesis of the best of a whole gamut of well-developed styles.

Of course, as the music gets more sophisticated the audience (and, sometimes, the money) gets smaller.

But what a dull place this would be without
"leading edge", evolved music.

Most of my jobs are jazz. That's my preference. They're fewer and farther between, but they're there if you really want them.

Just takes a listen to some of the leading edge stuff today...almost defying categories. There are beautiful phrases from giants of the past, interspersed with references to rock, hip hop, older fusion and more.

May not be mainstream, but has a place.

It would be a shame if musicians lost track of their roots. And it would be a bigger shame if musical references from the past disappeared from modern compositions.


So, I'd vote for maintaining a wide variety of styles in future arrangers...at least for some of us.


Thanks,


Russ

I didn't really mean for all arrangers to be as I suggested. I have no clue where they're headed. I simply meant that at least ONE company needs to put something out like that.

If _I_ owned an arranger company, it's what _I_ would do. The others can keep on keeping on. There will always be a market for arrangers suited to restaurant gigs, etc. where the music includes standards. But for the masses, parties and dances... make it rock.

In 20 years, standards from the 40s will have even less significance with the MASSES. I can't see any way around that.

It has always been my opinion, from day one for me, which was maybe seven or eight years ago... that arrangers sound too cheesy. Too old-fashioned. I don't mean to offend anyone, it's just my opinion. I grew up with Led Zeppelin, the Stones, the Beatles. Not Gershwin or Frank Sinatra.

In this thread, I also said this suggested arranger could include SOME styles that cater to old songs. But the focus would be contemporary sounds.

Then again, what do I know. I may be as wrong about it as anyone else.

------------------
Bill
Yamaha PSR2000

i agree with bill...the arranger board manufacturers can do both on the latest gear, all it takes is a little (well a lot!!!) of programming the styles into what music is doing today...they are all still using drums, and bass and gtrs etc etc, most(around 90%) pop music is still written in 4/4 or derivatives..the latest boards have really good hip hop and dance/trance/house drum kits, and after all its the drums and bass which seems to predominate in those genres...so you could have all genres of music catered for on one board with some extra programming effort from manufacturers

[This message has been edited by miden (edited 02-07-2006).]

If I were designing the board, I don't know if I would even put ANY old sounding styles on there. Make it a free downloadable option to install those. If you put them on there, it gives the (young person) the impression it's nothing new. Sounds crazy but it's marketing. Design the board to look and sound like a board for contemporary sounds.

"By the way, Johnny, if you want to have some Frank Sinatra styles, you can get them for free on our website when you buy this board."

------------------
Bill
Yamaha PSR2000

I think former Depeche Mode band member Alan Wilder who used to do all the programming uses a Korg synthesizer . Vince Clarke obviously uses analogue stuff which frankly isn't my thing . I like Erasure but I probably wouldn't use too much analogue synthesizers myself .

I agree. My board is overloaded with acoustic sounds which, apart from the live! and sweet! voices, are indecent or close to crap. As a former violin player I know it is imposslible to sample acoustic instruments properly because they can be played with many techniques. Those mega and SA come close to reality but these souds could be found only on expensive boards which they don't sell here.

As for the styles I think they should quit producing keyboards with only 2 variations. It is boring to death, I can't use my arranger as an arranger.

Another thing I am mostly displeased is the slow pace they improve the low-end arrangers (actually my keyboard sits on the top of low-ends). IMO The change between the DGX-300 and 305 is insignificant - they are basically the same keyboard. Not to mention the lack of usb 2.0, the ridiculous 1.6MB flash memory for user songs, the enourmous amount of time it takes to transfer songs betwenn computer and keyboard.

My $200 camera has USB 2.0 and transfers 1.3MB pictures in 2 seconds whilst my $550 keyboard has usb 1.1 and it takes ages to transfer a 100KB midi.

Having all this in mind discourages me from upgrading my keyboard

So the purpose why arrangers do not sell well lies in the manufacturer.

George
George

[This message has been edited by George V (edited 02-08-2006).]

[This message has been edited by George V (edited 02-08-2006).]

I wish arrangers came with more 'modern' styles, especially rock styles. I'm 37 and just play at home on a psr3000. The songs I most like to play are songs by Social Distortion, Green Day, Guns n Roses, The Offspring, etc. of which there are very few style choices. I always wish that I had more styles to choose from for these types of rock/punk songs. I've tried to create my own styles with not great results.
I also like to play Beatles songs, older country like Johnny Cash, even then I feel like there are few styles to choose from. Yet there are several big band styles that I never use.
Well, I'm not complaining I just wish that keyboard had more styles for the music I like. I know some are thinking why I'm using an arranger to play that music. Well, it gets boring playing guitar by myself, and I want to play with the band. :-)

Exactly . I'd never buy an arranger because I would use alot of synth sounds rather than accoustic sounds and the included styles probably wouldn't do much for New Wave , Darkwave , Industrial , Synth Pop etc .

Seems to me that when you cut through all the rhetoric in the last gazillion posts, what everyone is talking about are STYLES. With the available cheap storage, even modestly priced arrangers could hold dozens of variations of every conceivable style and not even breath hard. What's the point of eliminating certain genre's when you can have them all without penalty (unless you just can't bear the thought of having a rap or jazz style on your keyboard...there's probably a name for this). I think it's widely accepted that most of today's top arrangers have decent enough sounds for typical arranger use (no one is going to use an arranger in Carniegie Hall). The problem then, is obviously the availability of styles that suit your tastes and needs. Sure they could upgrade the technology (usb 2.0, massive memory, etc., etc.) but none of this is going improve the quality of the styles. All the SA voices in the world aren't going to help if the styles suck. In my opinion, this is the weakest area of arranger development.

chas

How about Jazzacrapaphobia?

The point is when a potential arranger customer demos an arranger keyboard, they hear waltz,big band, tango, rhumba,etc., and think, OH!! This is for the older crowd, this is not an instrument meant for me. Then they move on to other boards. If the arranger was filled with Rock, Hip Hop, dance, music. They would think, wow, this is a cool instrument. Waltzes and tango could be loaded from disk, if that is what an old guy would want.
I am an old guy!!! (58) and I NEVER use waltz, tango, rhumba. I use pop and ballad styles, and use downloaded styles more often then the onboard styles. So, my arranger, was not designed for me either!!
Starkeeper



[This message has been edited by Starkeeper (edited 02-10-2006).]

Yep. It's called youth.

With young people, it's all in what they perceive. If they see it as for playing "old music," they discount its value to them. Silly, yes. But true.

And it's not just styles. It's kickass drums, kickass bass, kickass guitars. Probably other factors that I can't even think of. Whatever you could build into a board to make rock, pop, country styles shine. Cosmetics also matter.

------------------
Bill
Yamaha PSR2000

Yeah, one word says a lot, especially about social attitudes. I was sad to see that you are from Canada; looks like the disease is spreading.
---------------------------------

So Starkeeper, are you saying that the very presence of "old" styles on a keyboard would be a turnoff to younger musicians, even if the styles they wanted were also on it??? Why???? BTW, I'm an ol' fart too, and like you, never use the "old" styles you mentioned, but I'm not particularly bothered by the fact that they're there. Who knows, maybe one day when I'm an even older fart, I'll come to like them.

Peace,

chas

Great sounds and great styles that could cover both "old" and "new" music. And then market it; market it; market it!! You know with the same vigger you market a workstation. Put it in most if not all of the major music stors.

Just think if they had a keyboard with the sounds, effects and expantion capability of the Motif but with the styles of Tyros 2 and promote it with the same vigger as you would promote the Motif.

Along with the other suggestions I made on this topic, just maybe the US market would be hip to arrangers.

It seems to me that very proficient players like Chick Corea, Rick Wakeman, Keith Emerson, etc., would have no reason to use an arranger keyboard. When they play solo piano, it's so good that you don't miss any kind of accompaniment. A player at that level just doesn't need the arranger kybrd. The arranger keyboards are great for playing at the local level but I've never seen a national act, (particularly jazz), using them unless I'm not watching the right groups. Later, Ray

I am inclined to agree about the type of styles issue. My experience and frustration with styles has forced me to dig in and learn the instrument and to teach myself to make my own...mostly I edit the factory styles,swapping parts around and using the Groove&Dynamics function in Yamaha's Style Creator.
Rather than wait for Yamaha and third party stylemakers to make fresh styles,I chose to do something about it...the Style Creator is made to be used by non-professionals and is pretty easy to use.I only make styles for my own use,the jazz styles being the most difficult to create,but I still manage it....and I don't have a degree in music.
Learn how to make the most of what you have.
That leads me to another point I wish to make.......... none of Yamaha arrangers are designed for professional use,including the Tyros and Tyros 2.
The target market for these instruments is the amateur player and/or the hobbyist,and Yamaha is selling all they can make...here in Canada they are always on back order.
Some pros are resourceful enough to use them to make money....they make the most of what they're given to work with.
If there is such a big demand for more contemporary styles,why aren't the third party stylemakers addressing this markert? Maybe,just maybe,there aren't enough requests for these styles....or not enough demand to make it worth doing them.

Ian

heya im kinda new here... wanted to ask you, what do u mean about changing left hand technique?
also u talk about moduling a keyboard, does PSR3000 can be moduled to other keyboards? roland made? also wanted to ask ya as a one who 'aint know how to play yet at all, should i start with PSR3000 or RD-700SX.. thnx

already posted something about me buying new keyboard so im almost sure about the PSR3000, but im dieing to put my hands on a RD-700SX

This is a very interesting thread.

I agree with most of the factors other posters have mentioned, including...

1. top model not stocked in stores
2. no knowledgable salesmen
3. limited styles market (however, you can some ethnic styles CDs for ebay)

In my opinion, the reason the professional musicians (who use workstations), do not like arrangers, is NOT because it has autoaccompainants. It's the very true reason that the top arrangers are not really professional workstations+arrangers. If you look at all of the top arrangers, you will see that not ALL features of workstations are available on arrangers. I think the arranger functionality has to complementry. It should be something added on top of the top-workstation. The top arrangers cost more than workstations anyway.

They have to start with the workstation, and build arranger on top of that. This way all of the features and possibilities of workstation are available on the arragner.

For example, check the YAMAHA arrangers. No professional musician will use it's sequencer. It's a pathetic sequencer. Forces the musician to record with styles. ( I know, I know, it has that song recorder, but as I have debated a long time ago, it's not good at all) Why didn't they just put MOTIF sequencer?

Same issues with KORG, ROLAND....

I think this is the main reason the workstation users will not consider an arranger at this point of time.

[This message has been edited by Shakil (edited 02-11-2006).]

If you play a piano,your left hand is providing the bass and rhythm chords and moving all the time as you play..With an arranger you must make a chord by holding down keys in a designated area of the keyboard. This will trigger the autoaccompaniment section which will then play a background based on the chord and allows you to play a melody in the right hand.Ideally,your left hand should remain on the notes....holding them down.
If you want to learn to play piano,get a RD-700SX or a Yamaha P-140.
If you want to have fun and play for a hobby or amusement...get the PSR-3000.
I was referring to a module version of the PSR-3000 as something I wish they would make.


Ian

Pardon my ignorance about arranger keyboards, but what do they do that midi files, cakewalk, band in a box,power tracks etc. can't do? With those programs the sounds available are terrific. It must be a personal preference to use one system over the others, not because one is better than the other. Scott and others on this forum are pros using arranger keyboards, but I've seen more groups using synths and PCs and getting the same results. Later, Ray

[This message has been edited by raymb1 (edited 02-11-2006).]

raymb1

Arranger keyboards are for Live Performance. None of the tools you mentioned... Cakewalk, powertracks... can do what a $100 arranger can do... autoaccompainent...

ok so basically if i wanna play piano + have fun i can still use the PSR-3000 right?
and if i'll wanna buy in future a RD-700SX, would it be able to connect the PSR-3000 ? can they work together?

I can't answer if the Roland will work with the PSR-3000....I've never tried them.
Ian

In using an arranger kybd, how does it read the notes you hold down with your left hand? Do you have to hold down the root of the chord also? How does it handle altered chords such as C13#11 etc? I've looked at the websites of a couple of arranger kybds and not a lot is described about the above. Later, Ray

I recognize the last name your artist list scott, but I don't know the rest of them

My dad used to be the Technics' distributor from around mid 80s to early 90s. I saw a shift from buying electronic organs, during the big "Lowrey" era back in in mid to late 70s, to buying arrangers throughought the 80s. People's view of arrangers there in Asia is a bit different..people just love the idea of one-touch-button orchestra and those with money, either buy it for themselves or for their children. Lots of one-man-band entertainers also bought arrangers for smaller gigs, for bigger gigs they rent the GN series from my dad's company and bring their own arranger also.

It is not common over there for people to hire a band for weddings or for company's party. People don't really pay much attention to the music, as far as they're concern it's more of something to accompany them while they eat and mingle and they are not much of a dancer either during these functions. SO, people hire musicians with arrangers more than 'live' band because it's costing them less money.

Also I think America is a bit 'prejudice' against arrangers, like they associate it with those (sorry...I am trying to make a point, this is not MY view) cheesy old-lounge player with pasteled color tux playing cheesy elevator music. Also I went to a couple Technics' dealer in town, they are some of the most stuck up people I've known in business. They looked down on me until I told them my family is in the business and I know how much mark up they actually have on their keyboards.

What would it take to awaken US market as far as Arranger Workstation are concered...

hmmm... good thing some one brought it up,

very close to what I'm ALWAYS thinking all the time, exept that I don't have just arranger workstations concerd, but all kinds of keyboards pianos, Arrangers, Music Workstations, organs, synthesizers... etc,
cuz nowadays guitars(and Bass and Drums) are more popular than anything...
I'd rather fight to make all kinds of keyboards more popular not just arranger workstations... because... I don't know how to explain this to you...
ok, a Guitar player can play basicaly an Acoustic Guitar, Electric, 12-string... etc..
almost the same thing with keyboards, all keyboard players, or i should say all Arranger keyboard players i know around here where i live, we play piano, Arranger, Sequence/Record... we don't saparate that bad, Even some proffessionals played on my own VA-76(one of 'em even played with styles a little bit at my house)well there are some Pianists that only play piano... But still,
Another thing is, that Workstations have an arpegiator, and there is Karma, that are similiar to Arrangers but just fall more into "pro" category..
I hope You understand what I'm trying to get across.

And Some nagative thought:
Don't forget that whenever we're playing with styles(Auto Acoompaniment), those styles were made by some other musicians, and it's like we are using some one else's work.(Unless we are using self-made styles)Even if Arranger Workstations will make it to a pro level, probably of them Arranger Keyboards will be sold without styles, so that user can make them himself



[This message has been edited by Vadim (edited 02-14-2006).]

Hey ...

Check this out too while you're at it.
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/012768.html

Thanks,

AJ

What most people here are perhaps mistaken in thinking is that workstations are for 'professional' users. Trust me, most workstations purchased in the US are NOT bought by working, professional musicians. They are bought by hobbyists and part-timers, as are the arrangers. Yes, the vast majority of professionals use workstations, but their share of the total market is still small.

The difference lies in focus, NOT ability of the keyboard.

Workstations sell well in the US because they market to the young, hip buyer with lots of disposable income, and they achieve it by sounding contemporary. You will not find any loop phrases or arpeggio patterns in a Triton or Motif or FantomX that sound old.......... no waltzes, no fox-trots, no schlager, no bossanovas, no enkas, none of that older stuff.

Only hip-hop, rap, techno, industrial, pop, etc.. The average potential keyboard player wants to play something that sounds like something he just heard on the radio, NOT at his/her grandparents' house.

He/she is going to buy that keyboard, take it home and find out that, once they have heard the built-in loops enough, the damn thing takes great skill to program their own loops to that level, but by then they have already PAID for it! If they had have had the choice of an arranger with the same sounding loops and arpeggios, once they got it home they would be able to manipulate those loops MUCH easier than the workstation, and had a much better musical experience.

There are VERY few features of full workstations that do not appear on high-end arrangers (and most people sequence on computers now, NOT the built-in sequencers of arrangers OR workstations), sampling is standard on most arrangers (and most workstations STILL use USB 1.1 for data transfer, so they are way behind the computer curve too), they have expansion slots, top of the line sounds, and MIDI capabilities. Were it not for the OS, they are close to identical.

But...............

The styles in most arrangers bite in the contemporary music area. Fact.

What the major manufacturers need to do is hire the guys that program the loops for Triton/Motif/FantomXs to make styles for the arrangers. Re-brand the keyboard to distinguish it from it's Mom and Pop brethren (the Roland MosDef? the Korg Blockparty??!) and ONLY have contemporary styles on board.

Of COURSE you can add in the bossanovas afterwards if you are so inclined, but at least no young soul brother is going to head for the door if he accidentally gets into the OLDIES bank while he is trying it out in the store with his homeboys!

The contemporary keyboard divisions of most of the majors have learned this simple lesson. How long will it be before the arranger divisions wise up to the fact that their target audience is dying??

Hi Diki,
Maybe you are right, maybe not!!
Because I intend to live another 25 years and I suppose many other keyboardplayers do
the same.
Another fact is some musicstyles will return
after a long period. The music goes on and
on.

I'll bet for every keyboard owner that plays a contemporary "Pop" style, there are 5 keyboard owners that play a cha cha...
These styles are not outdated. There will always be a cha cha, rhumba, tango, waltz, and swing..We can't be without these for the sake of more Pop styles[even hip hop and new age]...Sure , go and add these , but not at the expense of "real' styles..


Same thing with the "dated" sounds[tones]...A good piano sounds just like it did 20 years ago...sax, the same...Has a flute changed?..what about choirs? The mighty B3?

I will be happy to keep my outdated sounds..and my ballroom styles..

I’m amazed by people who have played for many years and can only do two or three styles of music. A well-rounded musician should be able to play many styles and want to play many different song styles. I'd go nuts doing just a few styles with the great variety of music available today.

I experiment with many different styles and I find that many tunes are adaptable to many different styles. Adding different styles to the arranger is necessary but leaving some off (other than rap) would be a very bad idea. Just think of painting and all you paint is the same two or three pictures over and over. How boring!

I play a bit of keyboard and do vocals. I also play Sax and I’d like to see the sequencers on arrangers improved for this purpose. I can’t believe that there are still keyboards that won’t copy and paste a chorus. On my keyboard I can copy and paste a measure or a complete tune over and over.

I can even change the variations and other functions on the fly while using the sequencer mode playing live. This helps from being locked into the same identical midi file sequence over and over while playing instrumentals on my sax. However, I do midi files also. I’m not sure about sax on a keyboard, but many people really enjoy hearing a live sax today.

Arrangers are a OMB tool. If the sequencers were better they would attract more horn players to adapt to a OMB so as to be able to play more and earn an income to afford the up key of horns and accessories. No one hires a 10-peace band today. Many horn players are missing the boat. Most of the horn players that I worked with in New Orleans could do left hand chords no matter what instrument they played. The arranger is ideal for this style of playing. Left hand chords and right hand licks.

The arranger people are missing a big market. There are still many kids playing horns of all types in school and college bands that learn chord theory and could adapt to an arranger with a little bit of effort. All musicians’ dreams are to play for an audience and many horn players do not have the opportunity. The arranger with a good sequencer would give them this opportunity.

"Variety is the spice of life." This applies to everything. Yes! Even music. Load the sucker up with 1000 styles. There will never be enough styles for me. Except “RAP!” One of those is more than enough.


[This message has been edited by brickboo (edited 02-20-2006).]

[This message has been edited by brickboo (edited 02-20-2006).]

No matter how hard we try to awaken U.S. Market with arranger keyboards it probably wouldn't work, because today(and even 20 years ago and more) majority of audiance are attracted to "Guitar Music" and a little less to "DJ Music" the further we live the more popular guitars get.

Boo,
what do you have agaonst Rap/Hiphop music & styles?
Judging by the millions & millions of songs sold in the world they are doing something right I would say.

Donny,

I use a Hip-Hop style or two on "Long distance information give me Memphis Tennessee." I also use another hip-hop style on Bobby McGee. They really move me for an arranger OMB show.

I don't like rap especially with all of the "F" words.

I don't agree with the philosophy that it must be OK because it appeals to the masses and makes lots of money.

Just my two cents. For me there's too much real music to play without indulging in that category. Hope no one gets mad, it's just a Cajun's opinion. I’m sure many here hate Dexter Gordon, Sonny Rollins and John Coltrane. I envy these guys. I wish I could play any instrument half as good as they play and played theirs. I wouldn’t care if it didn’t make a nickel. I’d just stand on the corner in the French Quarter and play for the few who would enjoy it. There’s just something about having another musician say “man listen to that guy play.” I hadn’t heard a rapper that I’d say that about yet. Ha! Ha!

Boo, you must grace us with your versions of these two songs...I for one would love to hear you perform these using a Hip-Hop style for sure.........maybe Ive been missing something but I'm willing to learn?

Donny this hip-hop on my board really has a funky New Orleans sound, which I sound like anyway. It's sort of what we meant in the old days when some one in the band said I feel like playing something funky.

Maybe DonM can record it live when we jam in Shreveport. I hate recording. I'd rather practice my sax and learn chords and new vocals.

Donny I worked with guys that went on to work with Dr. John. Others I worked with went on to work with Al Hirt. I worked with Ernie Kado the Mother In Law vocalist. I worked with bands where Art Neville came in to sing a couple of times. Arrone's brother.

Donny I'm not bragging. What I'm trying to say is I had a wonderful opportunity in New Orleans to play everything in my day from Dixieland, Blues, Rock & Roll, Standards, Jazz and I played with very good country musicians for a while also, in the key's of E,A,D etc. What a drag. No Db, Eb, Bb, F, G, C so on and so forth.

That's why I can't just do Standards, Big Band or any thing of the same style all night. I'd lose my mind.
If I'm going to do funk it has to be funky, If I'm going to do jazz it has to sound like jazz.

Try fooling around with I'm walking the floor over you with a big swing band style. I do this and the folks sit there with a big smile on their faces and I have a good time doing it that way.

Try Gentle On My Mind with a Sambalegre Style and also Everybody’s talking at me with this style also. On the i30 these styles on these two tunes and especially the drums really pop. Maybe these styles won't work on other boards for these tunes but they sure do on the i30.

New Orleans like not many places has a sound of the white and black cultures with mixed music. In the segregated days when he wasn't working, Mac Rebennack (Dr John) was always at Professor Long Hairs house picking up all that "I'm gonna go to the Mardi Gras" sound of the Professor's.

We were all crazy for the black mans music in New Orleans and we all dug it and played it. I wore Fats Domino, Smiley Lewis records and Ernie Kado records out learning the sax licks. But it was fun. Then came Rays Charles a few years later and then we really had to work hard to copy his stuff.
Cheers!

Boo, I guess I owe you an apology for making assumptions about your attitude about RAP styles on your arranger keyboard. Still, I wasn't aware that "styles" had embedded lyrics. Truth is, I share most of the feelings ascribed to in your last two posts. I've just never had a clear distinction between RAP and Hip-hop since I'm not a big fan of either. Still, it's somewhat of a sad commentary on our society that, in your words, "In the segregated days when he wasn't working, Mac Rebennack (Dr John) was always at Professor Long Hairs house picking up all that "I'm gonna go to the Mardi Gras" sound of the Professor's" and yet, while Dr. John is internationally famous, Professor Longhair is known only by locals and a few jazz historians. Sadly, that's a story that's been repeated far too often in the music world. Anyhow, my Coltrane licks still sound like crap, even with my new Super Articulated Sax. Go figure.

chas

Chas,
I guess I'm in the dark on this comment, "I wasn't aware that "styles" had embedded lyrics."

You can email if you'd like.

New Orleans had many folks like Professor Longhair that played for peanuts. I thought nothing of it in the old days because we all played even for free if we got the chance. It was hard in those days to buy 50 cent reeds.
Clarence Frog Man Henry, Smiley Lewis, Sugar Boy Crawford I used to go digg all of them to listen to their saxmen blow the blues. I'm sorry, this is my last post here. I know I'm off topic again. It's a terrible habit of mine. My mind wonders since I'm an old fart.

Boo your not leaving us too????

I, myself, am not clear about the distinction between RAP and Hip-hop but I was referring to your statement "I don't like rap especially with all of the "F" words" and wondered what that had to do with arranger styles, as "F" words could be applied to any style, ie. "Take this job and shove it" is actually pretty graphic. Anyhow, I'm an ol' fart as well and am very glad there are still people around like you who can enjoy (and play) current music styles and still respect and pay homage to the greats of the past. Let's keep their legacy alive. BTW, there's a singer from down your way that I always loved who passed away not too long ago, his name was Johnny Adams, a soulful dude who used to play mock trombone solos. Did you ever hear him or hear of him? So many great unknowns from the N.O. area. Anyway,

Peace,

chas

Chas,
Johnny Adams:
I won't cry and I won't shead a tear
I'll keep on loving you year after year
Even though you've left me
Oh I Oh I, I won't cry.
I practiced this tune when I started back playing a few years ago and then forget about it and I've never played it on a gig. I need to make it current.

Donny,
I can't leave I just came back a few months ago. I meant posting this off topic stuff like this on a topic about arrangers. I get off track easy.
Cheers my friend,
Boo

Hurray - Thank the Lord I'm not alone!

I am 57 and also have no interest in waltzes, tangos, rhumbas, foxtrots etc. etc. etc. taking up memory - and more, importantly, using up loads of direct access buttons on the front panel.

What I mostly do is stuff like Whitesnake, Tina Turner, Bryan Adams, Anastacia, odd bits of Motown, Gary Moore etc. etc. Stuff with BALLS.

That said - I recently acquired a PA1X to experiment with. Whilst it does a great job of the type of material I normally do, I am getting a lot of pleasure out of the superb big band jazz swing type styles on this. Also some of the hotter latin styles. They are so good that they INSPIRE you to play that type of material. I wouldn't use these on stage, as the band I play with doesn't cover that type of ground, but they do give a lot of pleasure back at home.

To me, the right answer is to have a good selection of front panel buttons for direct selection of styles in generic grouping, but enable absolutely every style memory position to contain a style of your own choosing. My ideal arranger would come with a set of discs (or a CD) each containing lots of styles grouped by type - everything from Hip Hop and Garage to Strauss Waltzes, polkas and so on . Then, you could load the stuff you liked and just not bother with the stuff you would never use. This would also help with selling arrangers into different national markets, where tastes differ from country to country. One set of master disks suits all. Take what you want - ignore the rest.

For the less technical, the dealer could oblige and pre-load a selection to suit the customers tastes.

I don't think I would apply the same restriction to the sounds contained in the instrument. Even though my tastes tend towards rock music of one sort or another, there is always an odd song that benefits from the inclusion of an unexpected sound from another genre to suprise, delight and add spice to the mix. For example, prior to the Beatles & the Stones, you didn't hear too many sitars played on chart hits. Same idea with the banjo doing the lead part in "Swamp Thing" a few years back. So who'se to say that you will never use that odd eatern sounding thingy that could be a strangled wasp in a bottle? Might be just what's needed to sharpen up a particular number.

Regards - Mike

Korg PA units & a few others let you delete ALL factory styles so you could load whatever styles you want & make it your own....as it should be.

AMEN!!!