Don,
I agree with you. There must be more high quality internet-available video demonstrations of arrangers. I'd highly appreciate that! Not to mention that internet (and SZ in particular) is my only source of information about the new music toys.

I find these video demos very entertaining. They allow me to compare features and sounds of different keyboards and workstations. Unfortunately, these videos are very short in length and cannot show all of the goodies.

Regards,
George

First I have to say that I'm living in europe, so I don't know jack s*** about the american market, but here the impression of arrangers is that they are used by amateurs, lesser musicians, or polish one-man-bands.. And I think a lot of the arrangers don't have enough features or usability to justify the high price. Maybe if you could incorporate more workstation capabilties into the arrangers, they probably would do more. Emphesize on the creative side of the arrangers. A song-writing / creation focussed workstation, with style/arranger capabilities would be the ultmate tool, if you threw inn sampling and audio/mp3 recording and a cd-burner aswell, all in one easy to use interface. Maybe such a thing exists... but I have yet to see one... Maybe the PA1xPro is close?

doc-z

This is a very good and important topic.

I think that everyone’s suggestions are needed to increase the U.S arranger market.

It can not be just one approach but the combination of different approaches.

It is very very important that the sales person in the major music stores 1. Have the major keyboard arrangers and not just the $2 and 300 Yamahas and Casio (I hope that doesn’t offend any one). 2. The sales persons need to know about the capabilities of the arrangers they have and be able to demonstrate them well. They must be able to show how an arranger can be used in a one man band setting, as part of a band, as a composition and production tool and just for home. They must be able to show how you can use an arranger to create and perform original songs using styles on an arranger.

Some time last year I was in GC I was asking about arrangers but they did not have any there. The sales person however said that someone had walked in with a Tyros and could not figure out how to use it. The sales person said that since he was familiar with the Yamaha way of doing things, and he knew how to use the Motif, he was able to show the person how to use the Tyros. The sales person and the other person were amazed with the ease of the Tyros and the number of features and the quality of the sounds. He said they don’t have an arranger on display because “there is not any one around here that would buy them”.

It would also help to have major celebrities endorse and also do demonstrations playing a top-end arranger.

But I think that the manufacturers have to start making their top-end arranger products looking more professional and with the professional gigging musician in mind. Quite a few gigging musicians like toseparate themselves from the at home players. Whether right or wrong, some gigging musicians do not want to know that they are gigging with a keyboard that is an everyday consumer product. You can give the gigging musician the same thing that a home player would get but you can not let it look as if you are doing so.

Also, the manufacturers should think about working on the price. If it is not affordable to the masses all the promotion in the world is not going to increase sales drastically. It will just take one manufacturer to take that risk to develop a good top-end arranger for the gigging and production musician in mind, price it reasonably and market it as such. They may not make as much with one of those reasonably priced top-end arrangers as they would with a regularly priced arranger, but what they would have done is penitrate the market, build brand loyalty and have the ears of persons for other like products they have or will have. One of the ways this could have been done is by arranger modules. Gem and Ketron could have done it but Gem with the Genesys xp did not have the right price and was not willing to sell in the U.S and Ketron with the midjay did not have all the important arranger features on them. And whether for financial or philosophical reasons, they both do not have an aggressive marketing strategy.



[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 01-27-2006).]

In my locale there is a music store that carries an incredible inventory of instruments, music, sound systems, etc. http://www.bananas.com/

Because we have numerous "star" musicians and vocalists living in this area, this very small non-chain store has been able to move amazing amounts of gear. Over the years I have purchased large and and small items from the store (with an understanding that they will "meet a good price" for a good customer) and I know a couple of the VERY knowledgeable staff, ALL of whom are musicians. BTW -- it takes high volume, solid pricing AND a fairly wealthy musician clientele to support trained and dedicated staff IMHO.

10 years ago the store carried both workstations and arranger KB. I bought Yammie 500,500 and 740 models there. I finally had to go online for my PSR9000 in 2003 because the store had dropped all but the low-end models. And added Casio later. Recently I wandered into the shop, looked at the wonderful assortment of almost every Korg, Roland, Alesis, other workstations and into the "arranger sction". 4 low-end Yamaha models -- 4 competitive Casio models. Noting the presence of Yamaha portable digital pianos (no cabinet models) I asked "what about the better arrangers available, including the Tyros?" The answer from these guys serving a very well-off, very professional, worldly and musically oriented locale: "we can't sell them -- people think they are overpriced toys and want to have a real synth (and can afford it) LIKE THE BANDS USE".

Now I, at 67 years, and a former R&B pianist of the fifties, do not relate very closely to the "stars" of today or their music, I admit. I don't sample; I don't compose much modern music; I cannot play "rock" well, so I don't lean towards the workstation world. I then tried to think WHERE locally I might have recently seen/heard of someone playing alone with an arranger KB. No luck; never have I seen one around here. Solo piano (sometimes with a drum machine too, even a vocalist), yes.

At Xmas time I was in a Costco store and stopped to look both at a Suzuki (!!!???) digital piano and a new Yamaha DXxxx model; played both a little. 50-ish Fellow at my elbow asked me if I was a "professional". I gave my usual "no way" grin and shook my head. He then told me he WAS a local pro who played the senior/small gatherings circuit and wanted to get together to BS. I asked him if he thought the local market was stable or expanding, whatever, for one man bands. He said "no -- the boomers, the BIG market coming into play, need NOISE and BAND EXCITEMENT to move them." He allowed as he thought that he was one of the last of the people playing solo around here and when he quit, it was then moving totally to DJ stuff and small live groups. Usually rock, hiphop, rapper, or C&W (modified to whatever it is these days). This guy played what I play -- jazz standards, latin jazz, some pop music, some classical modded, almost NO "rock" or hiphop, etc. He saw his market evaporating; except, perhaps, for the growing senior population. But he would REALLY like club and restaurant venues, too.

So -- folks -- it probably isn't only the quality of sales staff in music stores, or the promotion by the big makers that is determining the fate of arranger gear. It is CULTURE, as exhibited daily in the biggest buying generation sellers have ever seen. I agree totally that extra marketing effort could ramp up the sale and use of arranger-style gear; but I am afraid that advances in computer-oriented sampling, composing and playback may still overshadow whatever new advances in selling arrangers are actually seen. Now I am generalizing, of course; not all market regions are alike, not all populations have the same taste. But it seems to me as I look at CD sales (music trends) and instrument previews (technology trends), that the alligator trails -- as we use to say in Louisiana -- are clear.

My 18-year-old son -- not known for his understanding or tolerance of very much, true -- recently watched me reading contributor pages on "PSR Tutorial", a site I value considerably. He remarked that "gee, Dad, all these people are really much older than YOU, even". Didn't even ask about the music.

Interesting isn't it -- we may in fact see the hot sales of synths and workstations ALSO decline in the future, as the tech revolution makes production and playback less and less dependent on reatime play. The changes are upon us. Enjoy those keys (weighted or not, LOL) as long as you can!

Hey Dave..are we suppose to fill in the blank..We need to read what you wanted to say..

AJ. You would get your answer by visiting a number of the UK Keyboard Retailers.
Perhaps your company would pay for a holiday here...Ha!!!!

[This message has been edited by Graham UK (edited 01-27-2006).]

Scott Yee is on the right track but his thoughts need to go further:

It's not just a matter of "educating the retailers" - retailers won't stock instruments that don't have any momentum, and the problem with arrangers is that they don't get proper marketing. They need to be advertised to musicians and reviewed in popular music magazines properly so that there is demand and interest. Frankly, there isn't an MI store within 400 miles of me that has arrangers - and I'll bet that's because noone is asking for them.

Celebrity endorsements help - and no they don't have to appear on stage with the arranger to make the point - they can use them at home as part of their personal creative process.

Magazine reviews have been short-changing arrangers and we (arranger fans and manufacturers) need to protest that when it happens.

Arranger manufacturers need to put on more expositions to show musicians what is possible with their arrangers. Time for the AJ US Tour 2006. And you might try inviting area arranger players to help out.

Which bring up my final point: maybe it's time for arranger manufacturers to sell directly to consumers. Dealers are fine for a lot of things but are becoming less essential to working musicians, who often shop online anyway. Cutting out dealer markups would mean a better deal for everyone.

I have been following this topic,and I must say that Fran has expressed everything I would say,as well as the great comments from DonM, who address this topic from a different angle.
All comments are right on target.In Canada and especially in my area,where traditional music reigns supreme,the arranger is looked at as a curiousity.
Ian

In this part of the World, it's difficult to even find a dealer who has arrangers in stock. For me (and CoasterTim )it's at least a 2 hour drive to find anyone who has any Yamaha arranger keyboards.

And I might add, it's not like we are in a small market. The Lehigh Valley has a few good music stores, but when you inquire about an arranger keyboard, it's as if you were asking about a UFO.

So, yes marketing needs to improve in the United States, and having a celebrity advertise for you can't hurt. I have never, ever seen on TV, or heard on the radio, any major keyboard maker advertise arranger keyboards. You all need to get the word out.

and ...PLEASE make sure if your an offical dealer of a particular arranger keyboard, have at least one new model in stock..so we can at least demo before we buy.

Is this a problem in Europe?
Judging on the percentage of sales, they must be doing things better accross the pond.

Thanks for the interesting topic

Larry

Ever ask the average car salesman specific questions about their product? Sadly, most just don't know the answer to anything but the price.

In this country, as top end arrangers become more complicated and expensive, they are less and less of a mass merchandise product. That means, it is not practical, according to most business models, to do mass advertising...too much cost per viable contact.

As far as training the average music store salesman...that would be difficult. Most are not dedicated keyboard sales people, and it's much easier to learn basic info on guitars, drums, sound systems, etc.

In this country, volume and stock turns drive the business. the market gets smaller for the top end, more complicated models.

Unless an entirely new business model is developed, greater penetration, trained sales people and corresponding increased volume will be hard to achieve.


Russ