I had one of Yamaha's Product Managers at my store today and I questioned if a chain play mode would be available on the next generation Yamaha Keyboard. The good news is that it will be happening on the next operating system update for the 9000 series soon. This should be very good news for many of you wishing to play a chain of midifiles on the PSR9000 or 9000 Pro.
We also spoke about what the styles will be like on the next generation "PSR10,000". Scotty Yee, you might be interested in this information. Yamaha will give us those more "in your face" styles such as Solton has been doing with the X series. Yamaha recognizes that there is a demand for more complex style patterns and will do everything to preserve the older types of patterns (which use almost always a string part and a pad part per style) with the newer breed of styles with those "in your face brass, guitar strums and other really moving parts.
Our talks today were very general but I did get a good feeling that Yamaha is moving in the right direction for all types of musicians, both hobbyists as well as pros.
The last thing we did today was to install a new hard drive and 64 MB of sample Ram into my 9000 pro. Yamaha uses the talents of Ronnie Foster, a well known Keyboardist around the world. Ronnie played with George Benson, Lionel Richie as well as many others. Yamaha sampled Ronnie's voice and did a complete demo in the 9000 pro with Lyrics explaining each function in the 9000. According to Yamaha, and you all know I agree with this, most Yamaha dealers don't know how to use and demonstrate these high end arranger keyboards and so Yamaha has attempted to make a self running demo for this 9000 pro and it can also be used in the PSR9000. You should be hearing this demo at your local dealers. I think it was very well done and for those dealers who never plug in a mic or have a clue about playing a song from the hard drive, this should be interesting. I laugh when I think that most dealers probably won't even be able to get the demo up and loaded. Let me know if your dealers are using this demo please. I would be really interested to know.
Thanks for your time,
George Kaye

[This message has been edited by George Kaye (edited 03-13-2001).]

[This message has been edited by George Kaye (edited 03-14-2001).]

Now I am wondering about Technics styles. They use rootless voicings but I was under the impression they were more sophisticated than Yamahas.

Clif,
From what I've heard in the past and what I know, I would think they are very samiliar to Yamaha's styles. I don't think they are very different, but I might be wrong. I would like to get into a room with designers from each of the top companys some day and ask the question..........how do you do the things you do?
George

George ,

First of all, thanks for keeping the rootless chord voicing recognition topic alive. I am very happy to hear that Yamaha is continuing to develop arranger keyboard features to meet the needs of both the professional and hobbyist keyboard player.

In response to George’s statement: “Due to Solton's use of more ‘walking bass line’ type styles and variations, Yamaha will do the same kinds of patterns and will inform the users that by creating such "moving" type styles might cause the chord recognition to not react to the exact fingering chords you think you are playing. The reason for this, as explained to me, is that the algorithm neccessary for making these types of moving styles, is not possible with complex voicings, such as Scott Yee's rootless voicings. So Scott, as I have mentioned to you before, according to my source at Yamaha, making very complex styles is a big reason why the rootless chord voicings won't work in certain keyboards”.....

George, I regularly play rootless voiced (II-V-I) chord progressions with many walking bass line type styles and variations on my Technics KN5000 and have never experienced problems as it easily interpretes my rootless fingered voicings and plays appropriate walking bass lines with ease, even on uptempo tunes. I tried playing the same rootless voiced (II-V-I) chord progressions on the new Technics KN6000/KN6500 as well as the Yamaha 9000pro and found that all of these keyboards were able to interprete and play appropriate walking bass lines with ease as well. I am not sure what the Yamaha rep is referring to here but in my opinion, the Yamaha is already able to both correctly recognize rootless voicings and correctly play appropriate and realistic sounding walking bass lines.

I am pretty sure the rootless chord recognition I am requesting, is not a matter of complexity (algorithms?), but instead, an issue of what chord the manufacterer “chooses” to assign to a “specific” chord voicing played. Solton, as well as all the major arranger keyboard brands already are able to recognize chords and play appropriate moving bass line type styles. My beef with Solton is that they chose to assign more "esoteric type" chords instead of chords used & played in real life by pro musicians. The issue is not complexity but rather “chord recognition assignment”.

I am beginning to wonder now if the rootless chord recognition issue that I brought up is more of a mis-understanding here because this is really a “simple” matter of how the manufacter "decides" what chord to assign the chord voicing played, and not about the need for more complex style parts.

Interesting to note that you bring up musician Ronnie Foster’s name because I had the opportunity to meet him at the Jan 2001 NAMM show in Anaheim and also play and discuss with him this whole rootless chord voicing/recognition issue. He concurred with me that Yamaha's decision to recognize these popularly played rootless voiced chords was a key feature he likes about the Yamaha PSR9000 & 9000pro, because he incorporates rootless style chords in his playing as well. He also acknowledged that Solton's decision to not recognize these rootless type chord voicings to be a serious Solton keyboard limitation and also couldn’t understand why Solton assigned these same chord voicings to esoteric chords instead. I somehow think the Solton guy who assigned those esoteric chord names to these specific chord voicings is not a performing musician. It appears that his decisions were based on petantic music theory, not what is actually played by performing musicians.

I’m still hoping that Solton will consider my request but unless I hear back from them(thru George Kaye) soon, I can only conclude that it was their rigid decision to keep things as they are. This would really be ashamed, because I was so impressed with the SD1 in all other aspects of the keyboard. I still am convinced that it would be VERY EASY for Solton to make the minor (software programing) changes needed to reassign the specific chord voicings in question to match the chord assignments that both Technics and Yamaha use.

Clif, yes, both Technics and Yamaha keyboards both recognize the rootless chord voicings. I think many of Technics styles are more complex (longer style pattern lengths & more densely orchestrated ) than some of Yamaha’s but I am still impressed with Yamaha’s styles. Afterall, complexity (busy) doesn’t necessarily mean better.

For those of you who are new to this board and/or want to be refreshed about the chord voicings and associated chord name assignments in question, here is a link to my original post on this issue:
http://www.synthworld.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/001167.html

George & Clif, thanks for your continued support and interest in this topic. I'm wondering if Solton will actually make a formal response to my request or just choose to ignore it? Thoughts from others?

Scott
http://scottyee.com

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 03-14-2001).]

Hi Scott

There is no confusion between the issues of rootless chord voicings (RCVs)and in-your-face (IYF) styles. Many people have admired Solton's complex styles and have been asking Yamaha to incorporate IYF styles. This request initially had nothing to do with RCVs.

Yamaha is saying they are going to respond to user requests by incorporating more IYF styles in the next generation Yamahas. George is reporting that the Yamaha rep warned this change may compromise the RCV recognition.

Neither you nor I can see why the IYF styles would affect RCR. I suspected and you confirmed that Technics keyboards can play IYF styles with RCV recognition, so the next generation of Yamaha keyboards should be able to do this too. However, it is not appropriate to discount what the Yamaha rep claimed--especially since it is an "admission against interest". I think this issue requires further consideration. However, it sounds like Yamaha will be providing IYF styles and RCV recognition in the next generation of keyboards, and we can find out for ourselves where problems might lie. At worst, we will learn not to use certain styles with RCV recognition turned on.

Hi George,Clif,Scottyee.
Reading through the above replies about Yamaha Style Files and the fact that Yamaha are looking to produce more complex moving Styles. This is not going to be possible whilst they do not improve on there normal 2 bar style loops. These are very repetitive. Technics styles are all 4 bar loops.
These board manufactures need to follow the Korg lead whose styles are normally based on 8 to 16 bar loops plus they have up to 6 chord variation patterns available per style. All this of cause needs extra memory. If Yamaha do this it will enable them to have space to provide some style movement and nice flowing bass lines.

Graham UK

------------------

Hello George and others,
It's great to hear that Yamaha is gonna do something ! However....The PSR9000pro was 1st introduced to me and George Kaye in Janauary 2000 (NAMM). It took them a full year to have it available . Yamaha has just given the Ketron line the biggest compliment . To have the largest keyboard manufacturer say "our style's will be more like such and such" is very interesting to me .
If anyone ever goes to a NAMM show you will find that Yamaha is the most aggressive company when shopping the competiton. They have a whole crew walking around taking picture's and listening to the other guy's keyboards.
How much money did Yamaha invest to bring the PSR9000pro to life ? This keyboard is
here to stay a while .
Korg introduced the PA80 at Summer NAMM in JUly of 1999. Where is it ??????????
It took Korg no time at all to bring out the Karma . Same sound engine as triton . The PA80 is suppose to have the same sound engine. What happened ?
The point is ... I wouldn't get my hopes up.
To Scott Yee ,
The guy who designed the Solton keyboards is Sandro Fontinella . He is not by any means "some techno guy ". His credentials are impecable .
The rootless chord recognition is not a problem for many Solton/Ketron owners that I
have met . These owners are performing musician's . Suppose someone is just using the keyboard for the purpose of using the sounds to perform with a band ? Suppose some one is using a X1 for stuido application and harmonizer ? Suppose someone is using the keyboard to NOT use the arrangements . There are many professional musicians . It seems to me that you have one issue that will keep you from ever purchasing a Ketron product .
The rootless chord recognition has been brought to the "techo guy's" attention.
I was performing on the SD1 at NAMM. Sandro and other musicians were performing at NAMM . I guess that everyone who likes a Ketron Keyboard is not a real musician because of the rootless chord recogniton ? When I play my X1 in public or at home it gives me the sound that makes me sound and feel good. That's what music is all about .
DanO
PS... I guarrantee that if Ronnie Foster ever played an SD1 he would say "this sounds great " . Just like Ricky Lawson, Ellis Hall and Brian Simpson and many other Grammy award winners did during the NAMM show.

First of all, I think the Solton SD1 is a FANTASTIC sounding professional keyboard instrument. I never said is wasn't.

I also NEVER said or meant to infer that anyone who likes a Ketron keyboard is not a real musician (because of its lack of specific chord voicing recognitions).

I know that you don't need to play rootless style chord voicings to sound great on the Ketron Solton arranger keyboards, but, why NOT include these voicings in the chord recognition palette as Yamaha & Technics did? Doing so will only ENHANCE both your playing and chord voicing (keyboard sound) possibilities. Afterall, I doubt if anyone here actually uses (plays) the chord voicings specified in this topic thread to trigger the chord names Solton chose to assign them. I had posed this question in an earlier post and not a single person came forward saying they used any of these chord voicings to trigger Solton's chosen chord name assignments. If no one actually uses these specific chord voicings for Solton's associated chord assignments, why NOT assign them to the chords more commonly used in keyboard playing as Yamaha and Technics did?

Dan, I'm sure my chord recognition issue is NOT a problem for many pro musicians out there (as I acknowledge that there are many styles of keyboard playing), but even so, I still can't understand why Solton couldn't EASILY ammend their software to include the relatively few chords voicings & associated chord name assignments that are incorporated in the Yamaha & Technics boards. This would just make that many more keyboard players happy and increase the market share to the Ketron Solton product line as well. Is that too much to ask?

Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 03-14-2001).]

Hi Scott

Its obvious to me that you are doing Ketron and the rest of us (as well as yourself) a favor by bringing rootless chord voicings to our attention. I have learned more about music from you and I think your lobbying will be effective in getting rootless chord voicing more widely recognized.

It makes sense anyway. If I want to finger an Fmaj7 with three fingers, I can use F-A-E (implying the 5th). There is no need to use F-C-E for Fmaj7 as well. Might as well use it for something else (like Dm7(9)).

I think the 9000Pro will be replaced within two years. The investment in it has not been that great, since it basically uses the PSR-9000 engine and the EX-5 form factor. George has said the PSR-10k will come out this November. It will have attractive features not on the 9000Pro. This will mean the lower ranking keyboard will be better in many respects than the higher ranking keyboard. This situation cannot be tolerated very long. I guess we are less than two years from the 10kPro.

Hi George,
just want to thank you for your update and your continueous effort to be a mediator for us, to let the KB companies know what musicians want in a KB. I'm also happy to know that they start listening.
Again, great job. Thanks.
Eric

Scott,

I prefer the Solton's chord mapping over Yamaha's. On the surface, the 9000Pro seems to be more flexible with 7 user selectable 'Fingering Modes' which changes the way the keyboard recognizes the chords. This is a good thing and all keyboards should have this feature. Unfortunately, none of the fingering modes in the 9000Pro suit my playing style and it gives me the wrong chords. I prefer to play in the pianist mode (full keyboard), and I also like to have the bass looping from my lowest note (I like to play the bass note). The 9000Pro does not have this fingering mode!

Solton has a pianist button that switches the keyboard from split to full mode. And then there are the 'To Lowest' and 'To Root' buttons which switch the bass loop. This is done easily during live playing with various button combinations. So far, Solton has faithfully recognized all my chords.

On the 9000 Pro, the fingering mode selections are burried deep in a few menus and then one has to scroll down to select the fingering mode. This is not acceptable in a live situation where I need to switch fingering mode from song to song.

I don't think it is hard for Solton to include the rootless voiced chords you requested. I think they should add it as an alternate map and make it a user selectable option. This will make a lot of players happy...

Henry

Cliff,
I don't think I said November for the next release of keyboards from Yamaha. The low end PSR's will be available this year, but the 10,000 or whatever it will be called I expect by NAMM show 2002, which would be shown in january or february. I have no concrete date for this, just my talks with Yamaha people.
George Kaye

Hi Henry01,

It's great to hear that the Solton's chord recognition system is working well for you. This further demonstrates the diverse needs of different players. I was impressed by the SD1's many useful features including the one you mentioned, but with a keyboard of this class/quality, it is a shame that it cannot be upgraded to recognize the commonly played rootless chord voicings in full keyboard mode as well.

Henry, I agree that offering an alternate 'user selectable' chord voicing recognition map, or better yet, a "user customizable " one, would be the BEST and most flexible way to go and would provide the answer to satsifying the needs of the largest number of keyboard players out there.

As I had stated in an earlier post, a "User Customizable" Chord Voicing Recognition Map feature is already included on the newest top of the line Lowrey brand arranger style home organ ,so this clearly demonstrates that this feature could be easily added to our arranger keyboards as well.

I spoke with our good friend George Kaye today and he has sent "numerous" emails to both Bell Solton in New York as well as Solton Ketron in Italy. He still has not received any reply from them and it has been nearly two months now. If we don't get a response from Solton soon, I can only assume that they are not interested in listening.

Scott http://scottyee.com

Scott,

Solton engineers have added numerous new features in their last few OS updates on the X series. They are constantly making improvements to their products and release these ROM updates to the public. They added a 4th chord recognition mode in their latest update (3.2a). I would not be surprised if they include the 'rootless voiced' chord mode in one of their upcoming ROM releases. Stay tuned...

Henry