And actually, cassp, the reason I use a big old expensive arranger is so I can use it any damn way I want

If a tune NEEDS LH bass (as this one demonstrates), I can do it. 76 keys is a BIG help when you use LH bass. If it needs full arranger, I can do it. If it needs SMFs and three splits, I can do it.

But to the main question of 'Why play LH bass on an arranger?', I guess you can break this into two parts.,. 'Why play LH bass?' and if you REALLY need an answer to that, you don't listen to a lot of bass players... The bass line is nearly as important as the melody, when it comes to making a tune memorable. It leads the chords (unlike arranger bass lines) and gives direction to the harmony, and acts as a powerful rhythmic element.

And 'Why on an arranger?' as if to say, 'why not on some OTHER type of keyboard?', well, if other keyboards were as flexible about their rhythm options, maybe I COULD use them for that (if not as an arranger), but as of now, even if you only use an arranger for drums and do EVERYTHING else yourself (as me and my guitarist do on much of our show), it still outperforms any drum machine made, with four Intros, four Endings, four patterns and seven fills all linked together. So, even if I weren't using arranger mode at all (but I do!), the arranger would STILL be the best choice of performance tool.

And they STILL don't make a drum machine with full Roland V-Drum Kits in them. The reason you spend MORE for a TOTL arranger is that is capable of doing MORE than any other keyboard (or combination of gear). Whether you use it ALL, all the time is up to you and your tastes...

Got it, Diki. I knew it was coming and I knew you'd be the one to set me striaght. Keep on dancin'...

You know Diki, your last reply seems like nothing but a personal attack against me to me and I can not figure out why. Nothing I said to you was said as an insult. There was certainly nothing constructive said by you. It seems to me you are taking something personal from my previous reply. I don't believe for a minute you withheld comment thinking it was a "joke". I've read your posts long enough to know you wouldn't hold back. I think you never thought it was bad and then searched for a way to rip it up after I commented that you didn't comment. Why? I don't know. But your comments don't bother me even as extreme as they are. In fact it's because they are so extreme that I feel you are showing your hand. I am not biased about Yamahas vs Rolands Vs Korgs for it to affect my hearing. I KNOW what I hear is not all that bad and I didn't even try all that hard. This was only a few minutes work. And the vocals are nowheres near Alvin sounding as you say. Considering what it is, an electronic processor, I insist that it's not too bad. Whats the matter are you afraid some might think it's as good as the G70's harmonizer. I know it's not as good, but it is still a viable tool!
And the Chords were not OF COURSE wrong. It was just a different key. There is a difference ya know?
And what's this about the style being nothing like the original? what are you saying? Was the Allmans original done using a style? What arranger did they use then? Huh? Oh, you must mean the style I used didn't sound anything like the original song...Oh sheeeesh...Diki.... I wasn't trying to create a song style. I didn't search all over for a style for this song. I was just messing around and this style just "kind of fit" That's all I ever said. And if you can't agree that it works than you need to pull that great big stick out of your you know what.
Your musical talent is only surpassed by your talent for taking things personal and for speaking too soon IMO!
No Further comment.

Thank you Casp for the update on it sounding cleaner. In hind sight, I guess I'm not all that concerned. The only reason I did the number was to show that there are viable styles that can work. Now if you want/need it to be exact, you can either spend more than the few minutes that I did, or you can maybe find a good smf and try to get a style that way. I thought I'd read the Rolands totl has smf to style conversion abilities right on board.

I guess I sang that one note down rather than up was due to the fact I was working totally from memory of many years ago, that and the fact I'd probably listened to Willie's version about as much as the Allman Bros.
Don't get down on the board you use is all I was trying to get across in the first place. Just have fun and take things as they come. It'll come to you in time.
Jim

Jim, thanks for posting your Allman Brothers S900 recording effort. I thought the style sounded fine, with nice guitar backing.

That said, I myself would never attempt to drive the Yamaha VH the way you did, with such a high degree of exposed vocal harmony (& associated distoration), reulting in, if not Alvin & his brothers themself, close cousins. I would prefer you kept your VOICE as dominant LEAD voice, with the backup harmonies lower in volume than yours.

That said, did you simply utilize one of the S900 VH presets? Not sure, but I believe you might be able to improve the VH sound quality by creating your own "CUSTOM VH VOICE" file. There should be a dedicated section in the S900 manual that goes over all the MANY (over 25+?) VH parameters you can customize & store to achieve this. I can only say it substantially improved the results I'm getting on my T2, as I never use ANY of the preset settings, but use them as a point to start from to create my own settings & tweaked for my voice.

As far as the LH bass line issue goes, so what if it isn't exactly like the Allman Brothers cover version, it's YOUR RENDITION afterall, and sounds fine to me. If you want to play LH bass lines, fine, but the overall result (and except for the VH backup) sounds fine to my ears, and I'm sure most of your listeners as well.

Btw: how r u progressing with your hand injury recovery? Glad to see you aren't letting it hamper with your music-making.

- Scott

Thank you Scott for your honest constructive critisms. Actually I do not plan on using the harmonizer function at all once I get out playing again. Heidi and I will only do live vocal duets. But I will probably delve into those parameters someday. Thank you.
As far as my hand, I saw my surgeon yesterday (Wednesday) and was told I need not wear the splint any longer but that I also could not just go and do anything I want with my hand. However it will only be another couple weeks before I can.
I still struggle with a lot of pain and stiffness, limited mobility, but the probability of tearing the surgical repairs is a lot lower now. The tendons are still healing, but are almost fully healed.
The nerves however, the numbness to two of my fingers could take another 9 months to completely fade.
I'm feeling much better. Thank you for asking. It's been a loooonnngg 3 months. When I can start really start playing again you'll probably see way less of me here. I'll be busy playing those sweet SA's
Jim

Look, I'm sorry if this got taken the wrong way, but your post asking if anyone had NOTICED the all harmonizer vocals was, I thought, in jest. How could anyone NOT...?

Secondly, and probably BECAUSE you haven't heard it in years, I thought I might comment about the chords. They ARE wrong, at the bit where it goes ''and I'm not gonna catch, not gonna catch the midnight rider'. Download and listen to it before you correct me again, please.

I started out this thread trying to be useful, but the tone you took in getting smug about no comments about the harmonizer kind of got to me. From that, I took it that you actually WANTED some honest feedback. I gave it. Sorry...

This is not a Roland Yamaha thing. I'll comment the same way no matter WHAT brand of arranger does it (I would HATE the G70's harmonizer cranked up like that, too!). And it's not a personal attack on you. It's a comment about a recording of a song. With nothing but harmonizer instead of singing, and the wrong chords (in places) and a style that struggles to capture the feel of the original (even if you can get past the 'Cher' vocals)...

I tried to be helpful at the beginning, and you MIGHT notice that no-one made ANY comment about the recording at the start (just some distortion issues). This MIGHT clue you in the fact that others didn't quite know WHAT to say... either.

But please, if in future you want NO negative comments, well, first of all, say so! And secondly, don't berate us for not commenting about obvious things. I was trying to be polite until you did that!

OK its slightly more set-up work, (And requires a bit more practice) but if you want to play Bass Lines why not get yourself a Pedalboard and use your left foot for the Bass, (After all that’s what Pedalboards are designed for) that way you can play your left hand chords, right hand melody etc, all at the same time.
Just another option

Bill

Bill - my point exactly. Certainly playing lefthand bass is a useful tool, but if it is what you do more often than not, why are you buying all that excess? My Crumar pedals sit under the keyboard at home all the time and I also have had midi pedals. What I'm seeing are too many players who have the latest technology in front of them (like me), but they don't need it all, want it all or can use it all. Most of us are still seeking simplicity in all of this excess. As I said on another thread, we are all just legends in our own minds anyway. The SZ is our diversion.

Diki - I've come to accept your biting criticism as just a matter of style rather than intent (so to say). But you need to realize your criticism is often the type that takes the air out of anything else that's been said. With that in mind, don't stop posting, just keep in mind your opinions and criticism can come off as abrasive. Peace, bro.

NewB - It's obvious from your comment to me that you were still upset at Diki's remarks. That's cool - there was unrest all over the SZ yesterday; bad air, or something. Anyway, I believe you put that song out there for people like me to hear Midnight Rider because it had been mentioned in that previous post. So you didn't spend any time on it and you got a little burned because maybe you should have spent a LITTLE time on it. Hey, any time you post audio/midi on the SZ you better be belted down and prepared for any type comment. Personally, I thought the rhythm and your left hand (I think) did an OK job for that song - would you sell a million copies, I think not. Wrong chords; sometimes I cringe when I hear someone performing and playing wrong chords, but I didn't have that reaction, maybe because it was a one-take thing and it just didn't matter that much.

One of things I sort of stayed away from for a long time was people posting their recordings; mainly because I internally felt some were not that good and I could do a lot better. BUT, I never posted anything because my only experience with recording was with a 24-track set-up at my brother-in-law's. Once I got up the nerve to record on my own with a simple 4-track digital, my fellings changed. Now I look forward to others posting music and replying to mine. For me it's a much better use of my SZ time than reading about how self-important we try to make ourselves or how this or that keyboard sucks more than than another. Man, for a few hundred (maybe thousand) bucks, these things are phenomenal.

Let me close by saying I appreciated and enjoyed your song. I know, you know and anyone else who hears it knows it's not a professional demo - that was not the point. you put it out there for whatever reason and some people took a couple pot shots - for whatever reason. There was some misunderstanding of motives. That's going to happen here. Wake up, enjoy the sunshine and thank God you've got another day on this great planet.

Uh, isn't that essentially an organ. Also, wouldn't you have to be a trained organist to make that work?

chas