I have been working six months a year on the patio at an upscale restaurant for 13 years.
All year, other musicians, duo's and larger groups constantly contact the management to try to get the gig. Sometimes, they get two or more calls a day.

I know most of these people...in fact, sometimes they show up while I'm working and ask me who the manager is. Often, they show up during the gig and then try to contact the management within the next few days.

This has never been a problem, as far as the gig goes, mainly because many of the contacts have been by acts that are inappropriate (bluegrass bands, jam blues bands, "Fish" type groups, tribute bands,
impersonators, etc.).

Several "regular" visitors offer to do the job of $50.00 less. The job pays $150.00 for 3 hours. that's the top rate for a single in Lexington.

What are the ethical considerations here?
I believe that a person or group who can do a better job than I do should get it. I'm not so sure that trying to get a job by undercutting the price is the honorable thing to do.

Any thoughts?

Russ

Russ the music business is not always honorable..Two weeks ago our band played a new location[for us] in Philly..They loved us and booked us again this weekend, at the cost of another band[they cancelled the other group]..After I heard this I mentioned to the other members of our band, that this is something that I will not do again[If I known before the fact, I would have refused]..A commitment is a commitment,,The club was wrong and we were wrong...I would not like this to happen to us...If the club wants us, check schedules for open dates, than honor the dates...Competing for jobs that are open is fair game, even at price bidding..your worth will arise to the top over the "bid to get the job" guys...you may lose a job initially, but they will call you back if you are "good"..

ANY market is open to competition. It's part of the trade. The trick is to be "worth keeping" - It's not always about $$$$$$. Make sure you give a good product, and you'll be OK. Loyalty still counts with some these days, but beware of those snakes that will always try to undercut your price. They're out there too.

Russ...
First of all...13 years at the same place? Congratulations...you should be getting a gold watch. Your employer doesn't seem to be interested in replacing you and I bet you have an excellent rapport with him/her/them and the customers. My guess is you could probably stay there another 13 years if you wanted.

The last "full time" restaurant gig I had lasted 18 months, 6 nights a week. In that time I saw a parade of singles, duos and larger groups coming in to apply. That is normal. If we don't make outselves known and do some prospecting, we would never work.

But, what bothered me was just one guy, who I thought I knew very well, who wrote a letter to the owner detailing how much better he would be at the job than me...and offered to play at a ridiculously low price. The owner showed me the letter and said he could never trust a guy like that.

On the other side of the coin, a regular "one-nighter" client called for a date I couldn't do. She asked if I could recommend anyone. I put them in touch with a duo I knew was good...and they ended up getting a number of the gigs I usually got there. Then, the hammer fell when they failed to show up one night. Now I am back in the regular rotation and the entertainment director is tripping over herself thanking me for my professionalism and not getting upset about being replaced before.

I am not a booking agent. I seek no commissions for placing anyone else in a job. I take no finder fees. I just put the client first and try my best to satisfy their needs, whether it be me playing or helping to find them another appropriate act. But, I will never recommend any other musician who has proven to be a snake.

Eddie

Try the brick business. I don't see how they can pay the light bill sometimes. They run around in 1973 pickups with 300,000 miles and the fenders falling off.

I have to feel sorry for them. It's sad! It's just the way the system is set up. Who's to say for those folks that it is right or wrong.

Suppose they have six kids at home and just got laid off of their day gig last month with no income?

If this were the case with your family, wouldn't you go around cutting prices? You're tell me you'd let your wife and kids starve. I don't believe you.

I'm talking in general Russ. Nobody take anything I say here personal .

This system for many people still sucks, but of course the ones doing OK and especially the rich seem to be very happy.

What'cha gonna do. Sometimes I think if I didn't suffer GERD, I could become a drunk.

There will always be price cutting because there will always be hardship for some people.

The music business is dog eat dog. The best way to keep your job is to always continue to work at staying on top of the game. This means continuing to keep your act updated, expanding your repetoire, as well as keeping your chops in shape. Like any other business, hard work, being reliable & on time (unfortunately a trait lacking with many fly by night musicians), honesty, having both a positive & friendly attitude, and giving the client their money's worth, will both put you and keep you at the 'top' of the pack. Even so, you have to know when it's time to 'move on' and up to another hopefully better gig venue. As for pay, set your rate for what you're worth (in your particular area & market). Once you've earned the respect & reputation of established clients & club owners in your area, they'll gladly pay you what your worth and more likely bypass the competition as well. Just some food for thought. - Scott

GERD? What's that?
(serious)

I don't have much competition here as far as arabic music is concerned, and I did saturday night gigs for almost 2 years straight, but what do u do when your competition is the restaurant owner themselves????

I quit the restaurant about 2 months simply cause I have had it with them , their attitude,and lack of gratitude for what I have been doing for them. What that restaurant brought in as far as money on saturday nights is more than what they made all week combined!
My contract with them was 9pm-midnight...I would show up 7:30-8 alot of times , and never a thank you so the times I show up 8:45pm, I still hear "why are u late" ?!!!!
I play till 1AM almost everytime, never asked for extra money. But for ever meal they gave me for free, they had to throw some kind of word about them feeding me!

The straw that broke the camel's back is when I heard that people are calling the restaruant to get my number to book me for private parties (where I make at LEAST 5 times what i made at the restaurant), and the restaurant owners would not release my number to them intentioanlly trying to ruin business for me!!!!

Anyway, thank God I have always done a good show and for the past two months, I have gotten so many emails and phone calls from "fans" who are upset that I quit playing, cause it was the only place that had this kind of entertainment.
In March I start in a much bigger restaurant that has much better design for middle eastern music, and all my "fans" are eagerly waiting so they can come. I am willing to put money on the fact that the first restaurant is going to call me back soon after, cause they will realize what a loss they will face (if they have not been facing it already).


About band competition it happens to me all the time in private parties. I had played with my band in Burmingham last new year (2003)eve and the people loved it so they called me back in last september to book us for this past new year eve party (2004)...He wanted me to work with him on the money this year cause they were tight on budget, so I dropped my price $500 below last year's price. He was going to propose to the committe , and after their meeting he called me saying that another band from here offerred them yet another $500 below our lower price! and they booked them off course!
I guess its part of the business.

But like they said above, you have been at that restaurant 13 years, I highly doubt the owners are interested in any replacements!

[This message has been edited by Mosiqaar (edited 01-19-2004).]

Gerd
Gastroesophocalrefluxdisease. It causes heart-burn. If you don't have it, you don't want it.

Prilosec is for this. It just went down from almost $3 a pill to about 60 or so cents a pill.

The last batch I bought, from you know where, before they went down to 60 cents here cost me 8 cents a pill. Yes you're reading right not 80 cents a pill, but 8 cents a pill verses almost 3$ a pill last year. Hard to believe eh? But true.

Points well taken on several fronts. It's easy to resent price cutters when you're not hungry. I'm not worried at all about my job at this establishment, because not many people in this area specialize in light jazz/
dinner music (this is KENTUCKY, after all),
and I have standing offers from the five major competitors in the market. The physical set-up at some of the competitive restaurants is better. I have to carry everything in every night. It may be a function of age, but these folks are loyal to me, and I have chosen not to play for direct competitors, even in the winter. That decision is made easier, because I do my corporate gigs at substantially more money during the off season.

The lack of business ethics is certainly not restricted to the music business. I think that whenever anyone shows a lack of doing things in a moral/ethical mannor, it's a sad indicator of the times in which we live.


Russ

Does anyone have that one guy that keeps coming up every time your playing and ask, if he could do it during the breaks... Or if you want a break he'd like to play for a bit... Or can he just play for a while?? I use to have this guy constantly wanting to take over... Ever time I took a break.. Can I play??? Just wondering... Never met a more pain in the backside fellow.. I was always nice... But sometimes it's hard to be.
DJ

Sure have! In fact, I have people who show up with a music stand, sheet music to show tunes and a group of friends. Usually, One person in the party says "we want to hear
(name) sing...here's her music. IT NEVER HAPPENS!, mainly, we're in a restaurant, not a showclub.

I also have numerous people ask to play breaks, before I start, etc. Management asked me to institute a "no sit in" policy, so I avoid the problem. Of course, that means I cannot ask my friends to sit in, and I really miss that.

Russ

That's the cool thing about playing the accordion. My new accordion weighs over 40 pounds and because I'm such a big guy the straps are set really huge. Very few people play the accordion and the ones that took lessons years ago wouldn't THINK about trying to play my beast. And unlike an arranger or a piano, playing the accordion when you don't play regularly can really sound terrible.

I used to play piano in a piano-bar overseas for a couple of years and EVERY single night some bonehead would try to take over. It was so annoying.

If anyone ever does try to play my reedless I'll just shut off my XD3, turn the volume wayyyy down, and let them have a go at it.

Like somebody said on another post awhile back, the guy that tells all his friends how awesome he is and wants to "take over" at every bar or restaurant is NOT the guy you want to hear. It's always the guy that gives you $10 on the way out and says "I play a little jazz over at Morton's if you ever want to stop by for a listen" that you would really like to show you something.

Tommy

Invited guests of MINE are always welcome on stage, but the customer who volunteers himself or another patron rarely gets the nod from me. I get paid to entertain, not to babysit, and even though a spirited version of "what I like about you" just MIGHT get this guy into some girls pants .... it's neither my place or my wish to participate in the ritual.

As for someone playing my breaks - never on my gear. Sometimes a room has 2 acts booked. That's different. I've shared sets before, but I won't play "Ted Mack" to the amatures any more. When the norm becomes sing-a-longs and sit-ins .... that's when I start laying bricks.(in a matter of speaking)

That's one benefit of bricklaying, you soon learn to tell people to go fly a kite or worst.

Man up and just tell them no!

1. Tell them you don't let your wife, children nor your parents touch your gear.

2. Who cares if they get mad or their feelings hurt! You don't want them or their friends in you audience anyway yelling for him to get up and sing every night.

3. Tell him to go get his own gig!

OK! If it's the owner's son you might have a problem. You might, after the first night, explain to the owner that your gear is expensive and you don't want anyone touching or getting near it.

My buddy Sonny in Carmel Cal. quit a 9 year gig that probably paid as much as any other 4 night a week gig in the USA, because of sit-ins. It's a shame. I know he was making pretty good. I don't know how he put up with it for so long. He played their acoustic piano and use the house PA so, he didn't have to worry about gear.

Hahhhahah Boo....ya whats next?....in the middle of a heart transplant some dude comes in the O.R. and says
"hey man, mind if I fill in & try that new scalpel you got there" Arrrrrg....

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 01-20-2004).]

Hmmm......I'm going to have to learn "What I think about you".

Donny your pretty cool,

Great!!!!!!!! I love it.

I'll ask the next person requesting to sit in, If I were doing surgery would he ask to sit in for me.

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!Ha! Ha!Ha! Ha!Ha! Ha!