Jim, I couldn't agree with you more. That is precisely how I've always used mine; that, plus the fun factor of just jamming with oneself. I will always have one, just probably not for gigging (don't do that much anymore anyway). And yes, I will admit, the more the sophistication, the higher the fun factor .

chas

chas, I'm just curious... given your apparent disdain for any use of the arranger in a 'legitimate' context (whatever THAT is!), why do you bother with them at all?

What do you use YOUR arranger for? And, if it is different from the way others might use theirs, do they have the right to call YOUR usage 'HORSESH*T'?

The reason I (and probably many others) use arrangers live is because they are DESIGNED for it. They aren't a studio tool masquerading as a live instrument. You take any major WS out on a 'call' gig (where you have no time in advance to create setups, patches, effects routings, etc.) and it quickly becomes a nightmare to call up splits and layers, with volumes and effects, quickly and efficiently. In the studio, under less time pressure, you can possibly achieve better end results, but find yourself on a gig and a song gets called where you need a steel drum patch layered with a marimba in the right hand, and a Rhodes/B3 layer in the left, with chorus on the Rhodes and a Leslie on the B3, the song will be half over before you have created this on a Motif or Triton.

I can do this in four bars (or less!) on a G70.

Secondly, familiarity with equipment is important on any type of gig. So a TOTL arranger, capable of going from close to WS capabilities in a full band situation (and VASTLY better setup time for patches), through LH bass and RH accompaniment (with the same speed advantage for patch selection in the RH), to LH bass/RH ACC using arranger drums (with their huge improvement over using drum machines with little live control) to full-on arranger accompaniment for the solo act, you only need ONE piece of kit to cover almost ANY situation. One piece of kit equals intimate knowledge of OS and soundset.

So, WHY use an arranger for LH bass gigs? Because I can use it for ALL my other live gigs as well. Unlike a WS, which has no accompaniment abilities at all, unless you pre-program them.

In the REAL world, most gigs are cover gigs of some kind. Very few make any decent kind of a living playing all original music live. Studio, yes, but that requires a whole different toolset to live. The problem is that arranger manufacturers refuse to design arrangers that work well for modern music, despite them STILL being the better tool for it in a live situation. Even hiphop and rap songs still have intros, different variations, breakdowns and, yes, even an ending occasionally...!

But loop based workstations provide little to be able to do this on-the-fly. The idea of IMPROVISING this is somehow thought to be the DJ's domain. Or a guy with a beatbox. But little needs to be done to arrangers to make them far more controllable for this task, AND still be usable as the synth/keyboard part of the music, too. But if arranger designers remain mired in providing auto-accompaniment ONLY for older, demographically less popular styles, they ARE going to go the way of the organ...

Dave, I'm sorry, but I still disagree with you about using a contemporary arranger for modern styles. There isn't an arranger out there with a fast enough load time for a sampler to be practical for live usage (MS excepted), and very little of most arranger's ROM sounds are practical for hiphop.

And I'm sorry, but put five musicians together and ask them to make a blues beat, or a rhumba, and you will get five different results. But it doesn't stop you from loading up arrangers with blues styles or latin styles, does it?

As I keep trying to point out, the 'hip' beat loops in workstations aren't magically lifted off of hit vinyl records. They are pieced together in a fairly similar fashion as TOTL styles are made... That is, by very talented, creative musicians, who get payed a lot of money for this ability (look at how poor most user styles are if you think making a great style is easy!)....

All the arranger manufacturers need to do is get these same creative, MODERN young players to create styles for arrangers, re-tool the soundsets to be a bit more contemporary, and you have the WS killer we all know they are capable of being.

I say again... the VAST majority of workstations do not end up in hit studios, making chart busters. They end up in the same place most arrangers do... In peoples homes, and bedroom studios, being used for self-entertainment (just like chas) and playing for or with a few friends. Occasionally, they end up in the hands of gigging pros and semi-pros, doing mostly cover and sometimes a little original music.

Probably well under .01% of WS's sold ever get on a major label (or even minor!) release. The myth that WS's are SERIOUS tools for serious musicians is (to quote chas ) HORSESH*T! The only reason they outsell arrangers is because arranger manufacturers refuse to try and make styles and soundsets relevant to todays younger musicians (who buy the VAST majority of keyboards).

But the majors don't make them buy a WS and then have to program ALL the beats they need... They are included (and few WS owners spend that much time programming new arps and beats, just like few arranger users program styles).

But somehow, magically, young arranger users are expected to do exactly that if they want to use them for modern music. Provide the styles, and they will come flocking to your door. Make them make their own, and they will go to WS's, where those beats ARE provided.

Simple as that....

Diki, Diki, Diki. Okay, pony poo, then; how about horsey caa caa? Listen, I don't hold arrangers in disdain, I just see them for what they really are; great tools for sketching out song ideas and secondly, for having lots of fun.

I spend loads of time with aspiring singer/songwriters and for getting his or her basic ideas down, it's teriffic. I have no problem with people using them to gig with but frankly (and this is incredib le), I have never seen one used on a gig. Not being a huge fan of amateur/semi-pro singers, I probably would not go to see an act that featured an arranger. Of course, this is JMO and is valid only for me.

Although I have pretty much retired from the active music scene (I really miss it), I was lucky enough to play two venues (as an emergency replacement) at the recent National Black Arts Festival here in Atlanta. Acoustic piano and 2 1/2 days rehearsal. Wasn't too bad but we were only able to do five tunes (that's all we could bring up to performance standards in that timeframe). Lots of great talent there, including Roberta Flack and Abdullah Ibrahim (Dollar Brand).

I've been going to a few local jazz/blues clubs in the past few months and it has definitely triggered the desire to do some lightweight gigging again; hence the Nord C1. Just drums and guitar; old Jimmy Smith, Groove Holmes, Jack McDuff type stuff. I think it's time for a resurgence of this type of music. I'm probably wrong. We'll see.

chas

Hmmm I hear a soft kind of distant voice saying... "If you play it, they will come"

Jim

I hope so, Jim. Unfortunately, the kind of clubs that would support this type of music usually can't afford to pay very much. This is okay for me but probably not the other musicians (younger and hungrier). It would be nice, however, to make enough to defray the cost of a new board. There are three such clubs right here in Roswell and two others in nearby Sandy Springs (both affluent suburbs of Atlanta) so we'll see.

chas

I've always felt there are two different things...

Playing music, and playing for money.

If you decide to choose a musical path few follow, and styles of music few pay to listen to, you can hardly complain that it brings you little money... If it is musically satisfying, and you are not really trying to make a living, what does it matter if it pays anything at all..?

And if you ARE trying to make money, why pick the most difficult way to do it? Play what the wealthy want to hear, and the money just rolls in. You can always play Jimmy Smith on your own time, for free... (lot easier to get a gig!)

But one thing worries me, chas (and please don't think this is out of disrespect... actually, you sound like one of the more experienced guys here), if you HAVEN'T got out and heard anyone gigging with a modern TOTL arranger, either in a full band situation, or smaller ensembles (down to solos), where do you get the impression that it is not legit?

Is it solely derived from your own usage, or do you have some real world experience to say it can't be done? Perhaps from listening to others do it? If you haven't been out and heard anyone on a good arranger (or anything else, apparently, for quite a while), what makes you so sure the are incapable of the job?

I've got a fully loaded K2500S sitting at my studio, with just about all the libraries they make. But I would NEVER take it out to a 'call' gig in preference to my G70. And, so far, not one single client has ever made a single disparaging remark about it's sound. The player is still 90% of the sound....

Close enough is close enough.

Very good discussion here.
One of the problems I see with arrangers is that when it comes to promoting and advertising the TOTL arrangers they only focus on some of the more traditional styles.

Sure there are some arrangers that are only good for those traditional styles, but there are others like the Korg PA1x pro and the Genesys that are fully capable of doing contemporary and hip sounding styles.

With the sound editing and sample playback on those boards a lot can be accomplished. But they are not advertised or promoted as creative machines for modern songs. They are mostly promoted for traditional styles with traditional sounds.

If it is just style play back that is needed, then a midrange arranger is sufficed. That is why a lot of persons are satisfied with the Yamaha PSR 3000 – 9000 and don’t need the Tyros 2.

But for a TOTL arranger style play back is a given but when you pay all that money for TOTL arranger, IMO, it should help foster creativity and integrate with other musical equipment.


But the manufactures advertise and promote a TOTL arranger the same way that they advertise and promote a midrange arranger. So persons would not se the purpose of a TOTL arranger.

Even when you get a TOTL arranger, some of the modern sounds and features are berried down in the menus (at least that is how it is on the Genesys).

One of the hidden secrets of an arranger is using styles to make beats. If you can think out side of the box and creating music is something one is able to do, I have found that an arranger with the style creation feature is good for making beats. I know I have gotten that response when I am making hiphop beats for people and I use the Genesys.


But manufactures don’t promote and advertise arrangers with that purpose in mind.


They may be doing that purposefully so as to have different markets for different boards. It would not be in the manufacturers best interest to have one keyboard for all.


A workstation could sound like an arranger with just traditional sounds and arps. But the manufacturers don’t promote them as that they use the most hip sounds and arps to promote the workstations.

The reason IMO that TOTL arrangers are very expensive (much more that a comparable workstation) is that they are not as many buyers for arrangers as they are for workstations. It is all about demand and supply. Lots of buyers, lower prices. Few buyers, higher prices.


Whether to make arrangers sounding more like workstations is the chicken and egg situation from the manufacture’s perspective.

Do they create a hip sounding arranger and promote it as such then try to get buyers? Or do they make sure that they have buyers for hip sounding arrangers then create the product?

Wow, rarely have I been so misquoted and misunderstood. That aside, I'm grateful that someone out there (who else) has the wisdom and intellect to know what's best for me better than I.



When did I say I hadn't been out much or at all? I've been to most of the major music venues in the Atlanta area (except Rock, C&W) and I have not seen an arranger. Mostly, there are 3-4 piece bands but some of the upscale lounges and piano bars feature singles (usually piano and vocals).

Another thing, I don't recall "complaining" about making little money. I don't think it's appropriate to discuss personal finances; suffice it to say that, as a retiree, I wouldn't be doing it for the money (therefore no need to compromise on what I want to play).

You seem to have latched onto this idea that I don't like arranger keyboards. Nothing could be further from the truth. I love my PA1x Pro; the Tyros2, not so much. For me, one is inspirational, the other is not. Still, I think a working pro could use either board equally sucessful. I never said they couldn't be used for gigging; I just said that I had never done it or seen one used on a gig. Obviously many members here use them professionally, including some guys that I KNOW can play (like Dave).

For me, I would feel very limited and constrained using an arranger keyboard in the traditional way, style play (including just bass and drums). Using it any other way (on a gig) could probably be better done with a traditional synth (my opinion). Not only me but the other guys (bandmates) would also be slaves to the automated play. When I play out, I want to play as a musician, with other musicians. I have now reached an age and status that I can afford to do just that.

Oh, and Diki; stop being so judgemental. I'm often guilty of that, which is why it is so easy for me to recognize a kindred spirit.

Despite not being a huge fan of Jimmy Buffet or the Beach Boys, I still luv ya', man .

chas

Sorry, chas... I came in and did that last post after being out in the heat (116ºF heat index yesterday!) playing from 1pm to 10pm... And I realize I seriously misread you! My apologies.

In a way, though, what you posted about getting out never seeing one on a gig "frankly (and this is incredible), I have never seen one used on a gig" really only goes to show how few players understand how good they CAN be... And I suspect the reason the majority of good younger players won't even give them a tryout in the store (if you could actually FIND them in the store!) is those banks and banks of ballroom and retirement home styles (that I don't ever use myself, either!) that would make any younger player run to the WS side of the store as fast as he can!

And he would never get an opportunity to realize he just passed up on a keyboard that for gigging live (unless he IS doing hiphop or strictly modern dance styles) is a far more practical keyboard that most WSs. But the minute he turns on the arpeggiator function on the Triton, or Motif, well, he HAS strayed into arranger country, hasn't he, chas? If playing with loops isn't playing strictly with other musicians, it's no more legit than an arranger...

I think all I've been trying to say is that, as WSs get more and more auto accompaniment features added (whether players choose to use them or not is up to them!), the arranger divisions are losing massive sales and the opportunity to resurrect their slowly dying industry by refusing to try to market an arranger to younger players. Take the best of what an arranger does (intuitive, instant control of arps/styles, and fast and convenient selection of tones and splits, etc.) and graft them onto the WS features that now exist.

Either they are going to do it, or the WS industry will... The MotifXS is harbinger of things to come. If the arranger industry refuses to compete, they will soon be gone like the home organ...

Once again, chas... sorry for the misunderstanding. "Post in haste, repent at leisure"

BTW, although yes, I do a handful of Jimmy Buffett (just another singer/songwriter as far as I am concerned!), we do NO Beach Boys (my falsetto isn't what it used to be!). But we also do tunes by Marvin Gaye, Otis Redding, The Temptations, The Drifters, Bob Marley, Jimmy Cliff, Maxi Priest, to name just a few... It isn't all crackers down here!