Thanks everyone for the great replies. Very informative. It's interesting to see the different views on these products.

The release of the new Tyros of course adds a little cloudiness to the mix and the fact that I enjoy my Technics KN so much also doesn't make the decision easy. And then there's the option of keeping the KN7K and going down the component route with a seperate harmoniser, Software sequencer (Logic maybe) and sound module.

I guess I'll make up my mind at some point.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Booby:
[B]Hi,

> > I completely disagree on this. Let me show how Pa1X has over "most" of the competitors and even in comparison with the earlies "i":
- double sequencer
- touch screen display
- full spec sampler w/time slice
- full spec sound editor
- mp3 handling (w/option)
- cd burning (w/option)
- 8 programmable sliders/4 prog. switches
- names for STS
- a lot of specs of the SongBook
- full marker handling
- full karaoke compatibility (also w/mp3)
- a "pro" vocal/harmonizer
.... ehm, need more ? Can you show me a similar product including all these features ? i3 times are very far ideed.

----------------------------------------------
did I say or complain about the sounds?no.dual sq (which can do non stop cross fades in smf play back is good but can't beat the function where you can change a SMF drum style on fly (ie your old badly written drum track will be replaced by new drum style and variation(and change the style too)function which can be found on cheapo yams(psr 1500)is a major realtime arranger function that Korg lacks.
another biggie.lack arranger and SMF play back integration(can't do non stop ).
--------------------------------------------

> Pa1x,pa80,50(same old I 3 format,they forgot why I3 was a hit,the reason was the pro quality sounds , sequencer and hardware in a arranger KB in 93 when arrangers still are weak in real sounds-(still true to new Korgs),

this is completely subjective. I suggest you anyway to try again the solo sounds and drum kits in Pa1X and reconsider this ....

-----------------------------------------------
you have to re read my post.I said Korg has the best sounds.(that's why I have Korg) and one of the best sequencers .But they are weak on realtime arranger functions.
-----------------------------------------------
> but not because of real time arranger functions-in 1993 cheaper E 86 was more selling and popular because of direct disk play-something that I3 lacks(where in I 3 you have to load for minutes or use expensive ram card which can only hold 4 style and small song mem).

yes but these times are definitely passed.
Now Pa1X has about 1000 locations that seems to me enough (don't know about others but anyway don't need more)

---------------------------------------------
memory in I3 was an example.I 'm not refering to Pa1x(everyone knows that with USB to device and HD feaures ,most KBs have unlimited song/style storage.
---------------------------------------------
> the sounds and seq ,the hard ware make Korg sell but as you see in the realworld ,ARRANGER giggers are using yam(they know yam looks like a toy,hardware and durability is not as good,but the also know that arranger+smf plyback integration,natural fills,more reliable chord recognition,and ofcourse multi pads that can play loops(where even in PA series-pads does do nothing but a simple crash or single sounds.(except 1x_ with newer OS).

It's true that Yam is largely used but I know a lot of people using live as professionist Korg arranger, and also know several recording studios using Korg arrangers (in this case instead of others) because of its sounds and its fresh sounds styles to create backing tracks. Nobody is complaing about fill problems, smf playback and the like you mentioned. Maybe your real word is different from mine .... :-)

--------------------------------------------
Nobody is complaing about the fills problems?are you sure?this has been told million times.
ask Scott,DNJ,Gary to UD(most of who are arranger giggers(yes they use styles)than people who uses their arranger mostly for smf/karaoke playback or live with a band,or in studio where you can do multiple edits.

and I said (SMF+arranger integration )like I mentioned above.not SMF play back only.(I know dual seq do non stop playback).

-----------------------------------------
I respect you opinion, but it's clear, based on above mentioned facts, that no all people can agree with you.

most do (people who knows both inside out).
everybody love diffrent keys.but most really don't know real power of the other that they are missing.I like Korg for sounds,seq,hardware,durabilty, some contemp styles .(hate for arranger ability compared to yam)fills,poorer chord recognition,and reasons mentions above.

and I hate yam in reverse(toy like,thin sounds,less quality efx but hats off to them for their OS and some arranger functions).


I will be a Korg user(for reasons that I love) and not buy a G70 or Tyros(still think it's over priced) for now,but Korg should wake up.


and remember I 'm talking about ARRANGER function.that's why we are here.



[This message has been edited by jamman (edited 09-22-2005).]

Hi Jamman,

I like to discuss with you but we we are not probably talking the same language. I'll show you two examples.

* Example 1 *
Jamman: I 'm just angry with them for using same os and not updating both hardware and software aggressively in several years.
Me: I added a long list of hardware and software features recently introduced.
Jamman: did I say or complain about the sounds?
Comment: I can't understand your last reply.

* Example 2 *
Jamman: ....when arrangers still are weak in real sounds-(still true to new Korgs).
Me: this is completely subjective. I suggest you anyway to try again the solo sounds and drum kits in Pa1X and reconsider this ....
Jamman: you have to re read my post.I said Korg has the best sounds.
Comment: I re-read your post and I cannot re-understand your last reply.

Sorry .... maybe that english is not my first language, but what is written seems so clear that cannot figure out what's under the discussion.

I would like also to discuss about some features you mentioned considering them more useful than others (also in this case everything about utility is debatable), or about the fill problem but we will keep for sure our opinions loosing time, so probably better come to an end.

Thanks anyway for sharing ideas and .... cheers :-)

Originally posted by Booby:
[b]Hi Jamman,


* Example 1 *
Jamman: I 'm just angry with them for using same os and not updating both hardware and software aggressively in several years.
Me: I added a long list of hardware and software features recently introduced.
Jamman: did I say or complain about the sounds?
Comment: I can't understand your last reply---------------------------------------------

hardware means not just(ROM mem),or not new feature that wk stations have(CDR .I am talking about arranger (realtime control ) hardware.(eg.sliders,fill buttons - yes I 3 had them in 1993)(or not less than perfect sampler , which has been done by other manufactures along time ago(GEM or Ketron).
until TC equipped pa1x ,VH(function wise) in korgs have been a joke,(pa 80 /is series)compared to same year PSR (2000 or 9000).

hard ware - sliders - I3 vs pa 1x (more or less same)
fill buttons (still 2 ) with one break button added(again less usuable).
Touch screen(not a plus in an arranger).,full spec sound editor(not new for Korg arrangers ),
karaoke,mp3,cd burner(plus for play back of smf /recorded music to sing on top of it),but not for using ARRANGER styles/func
--------------------------------------------


* Example 2 *
Jamman: ....when arrangers still are weak in real sounds-(still true to new Korgs).
Me: this is completely subjective. I suggest you anyway to try again the solo sounds and drum kits in Pa1X and reconsider this ....
Jamman: you have to re read my post.I said Korg has the best sounds.
Comment: I re-read your post and I cannot re-understand your last reply.

Sorry .... maybe that english is not my first language, but what is written seems so clear that cannot figure out what's under the discussion.


--------------------------------------------

again reread my post.or I'll repost (paste it) again.


--Pa1x,pa80,50(same old I 3 format,they forgot why I3 was a hit,the reason was the pro quality sounds , sequencer and hardware in a arranger KB in 93 when arrangers still are weak in real sounds-(still true to new Korgs),but not because of real time arranger functions.--


it means (I 3 and newer Korg arrangers) sold mainly for sounds,seq,hardware not for arranger function it self.
it is still true to new korgs( they sell for the same reason like I3),
meaning- new korgs have same qualities like I3(better sound /seq /edit and hardware than competition ie-new yams,rolands.)

-----------------------------------------------

I would like also to discuss about some features you mentioned considering them more useful than others (also in this case everything about utility is debatable), or about the fill problem but we will keep for sure our opinions loosing time, so probably better come to an end.

Thanks anyway for sharing ideas and .... cheers :-)
----------------------------------------------

go to a dealer(who knows thier product).put a SMF on 2k,3k or 1500 and change arranger styles while SMF was still playing.you'll hear your country SMF will be played with a techno style or a ballad or a hard rock with a touch of a button(and change any style you like)without affecting song data(track 10 will be changed) on the fly or change it back to original style etc, with out misiing a beat.A killer feature if you play SMF every night and change the rhythm track according to the mood of the audience for that particular night).

will continue.



[This message has been edited by jamman (edited 09-23-2005).]

from some users (complaints about arranger function)

poorer chord recognition(compare pa 80/1x and a cheapo yam psr )or 1500 side by side .speed the tempo up around 150 & up.trigger the LH chords fast and list how they react.when in yam it's smooth,on pa you'll hear hiccups or timing problems (acc instruments/bass to acc trks)within the measure/bar.

-sample ram up to 32 mb only(for some)

The 'user-interface' is confusing because of the double/triple functions of many buttons. e.g. One button is used for selecting intrument group Piano AND Saxes.... it depends on another 'select' switch (with LED) what is selectable.
(in yam most under 1 button to select-style or sound- and one to choose).
Big time problem (when you are in performance mode and want to change preset program eg.piano to sax(go out of perform mode to program mode,select switch,choose sax catagory,choose alto sax ,etc-multiple buttons to press).

same problems with style select.can't go from 8/16 beats to jazz/latin without pressing the EXTRA select switch.(remeber shift button on PC keyboard ?,(though you don't have to hold it down)it's very irritating for most.

The touch-screen sometimes has tiny 'buttons' that are hard to touch because they are close to another button.

Access to styles during seq playback is forbidden. You can locate them, but you can't change one, or have or ready when the seq is done. Same in reverse if you are in acc mode...you can't access the sequencer in live mode.(you can do this in yam).

- Sounds shut off when new ones are triggered. This is only a problem if you switch alot in the middle of a phrase, or
with the sustain pedal down to free up a hand for navigational purposes. If you switch between Program and Performance
mode the current sounds shuts down for a second during the switch.
4) No option to add live drum beats to a seq like Yamaha and Ketron do. I've come to love that feature. I like to "modernize" some older sequences by adding some new, hip beats to them....even a multipad adds alot.
- Some drum fills are still a bit unconventional, and busy compared to the style. (Volumes, instruments etc .....) .
- Effects mixer is pretty cryptic with only 4 sends. I prefer the Yamaha design where I have control over each sound's EQ,

FX, Vol etc in a separate window. Nothing shared like the FX buss in the PA series.
--------------------------------------------

again for me EFX and overall sounds(samples) (even pa 50)are far superior than yam.another good point(though it has 62 poly -even 1x,)it does handle the allocation well.(since progs are only upto 2 layers with good samples.

[This message has been edited by jamman (edited 09-25-2005).]

Hi to everybody
Jamman, I'm totally agree with you concerning the non convenient arranger functions on the Korg keyboards.But, I would tend to go further in the critical points (and it's just my opinion concerning PA60&80. I don't know the PA1X, but it seems there is similar defects ). The first time I used my PA60 i was amazed by those "demonstrative" styles [the sound quality is unanimously recognized], but after various applications, I realised that most of the styles are overloaded and very difficult to use like that; I have experimented all you mentioned as major problems (and I confirm about the numerous non adequate "fill-in").I even add that in a certain number of styles, the bass is not well balanced, often bad modulated and sounds rather indefinite.
In parallel, you talked about some Yam characteristics which indeed seduce me (I didn't have the possibility to try their latest arrangers ), but if we have the possibility to mix the rythmic within the internal styles or recurring to specific functions like the PSR K1's "easy song arranger", I think I will seriously think to the next Tyros2 rather than PA1X.
In my country (France), in the forums devoted to arrangers, the debate also tends to go in favor to Yam arrangers but Korg is appreciated for its powerful editing possibilities but, above all, because it can offer plenty of oriental styles; Yam would be less exotic and have more european conventional styles. Unless the Tyros 2...

sound quality and edit power wise(ability to customize everything)Korg is great(seems like they designed like a workstation with some arranger features thrown in).
on the other hand some of yam's sounds,hardware are unacceptable for their price but their arranger functions made up for it since Korg is lazy in that dept.

and 3 rd party support of yam(all korg,most roland hit Kbs styles are free for yam psr format),together with sub 1500$ yams(with USB to device and SM card input,(styles and SMF storage inside the KB is a nonissue these days),it's hard to compete with a 3k for it's price.I still think 3 K is a litte over priced(should be around 1199$)like 2 k and 2100.

I am sure If Korg has yam's arranger features it will outsell every thing.


PA50 (triton board) sound wise no comparism to psr 1500 which is sold for same price.
but pa50(2004)KB shold have some kind of storage than a 1995 FD(and they can charge 1200$ it will still sell).

for the original question ,you can wait and check tyros 2,then you can do either of these.

buy a pa1x + psr 3k ($5000)

or tyros 2+ pa 50($4000)

cheapest option will be a pa50+ psr 3k($2500)(still cheaper than tyros 1).


Since there is no ultimate KB that can do all,I would wait and check the T2 out for it's features(compare with above kbs),then make the decision.

I am not a Korg user, but since my G1000 is almost 8 years old, I am looking around at various alternatives. A couple days ago I was at a music store and they had the PA1X on display, so I spent some 20 minutes with it.

While this is far from an all-encompassing test, I do echo Jammman's comments about the problems with navigating the arranger section. The style group selection buttons are not equipped with the LEDs, so unless you look at the screen, you really can not tell which style group you are currently using. Pressing style group button several times cycles through the pages of styles under that group (that is good), but the attrocious "Bank select" button may need to be pressed several times first.

I also found that a number of touch screen "buttons" are way too small for my fingers, particularly part mute buttons.

The arrangement of One Touch buttons is cute but impractical - they should have been physically separated so that one can press them without the risk of touching the wrong one, and without having to look at them first. As they are implemented now, you could not tell them by touch, and have to look to make sure to press in the right spot. I also found that on a number of occasions I had to touch a screen "button" several times before my selection would register. Worse, sometimes the registered selectioni was wrong. This happened even with the large style/sound selection buttons. I once again contend that a touch screen is a BAD thing for a keyboard oriented towards live playing.

I also thought that the instrument was way too large and heavy - the space on the left, where the joystick is could have been made significantly smaller, if Korg did not put the floppy or the stupid CD drive underneath.

IMHO, Ketron SD1 and/or the new Alesis Fusion form factor is much more suitable for the arranger instrument than what Korg/Roland/Yamaha/GEM are using. The weight does matter, and after 30 lbs every additional pound makes a difference, especially since most of us arranger players are not so young anymore.

I am not even going into the polyphony issue or the fact that the sliders are confusing - their position may or may not represent the current part volume settings.

The 76 keys are important to me, but to me the present offerings from Korg and Roland both have some serious shortcomings. I believe that a new Korg should be coming out in a year's time - perhaps they will address the concerns that we are expressing here. In that same timeframe, we should hear the news of a 76 key version of Tyros 2, if it is indeed in the works - I think that may be the instrument for me.

Regards,
Alex

Hi again, I hope for the last time.

> from some users (complaints about arranger function)

I generally disagree on reporting other's opinions. What I'm talking about it's my personal opinion, tested, proved and played :-). This makes difference. I would like you to do the same, not just adding someone else's opinion just to increase your list of complains to overcame mine. Anybody can do this simply checking this forum (and we know that your beloved Yamaha has a list of them available here), while putting hands, comparing, playing, using in studio or live a keyboard is a completely different exercise (that I had sometimes the opportunity to experience with my friends). I understand that you are angry with Korg for somewhat reason, but this is not a good reason to say "my friend told me that he don't like ...." or "from the forum xxxx mr. yyyy told me that .....". This prove nothing, it's not your opinion and it's just something added to make a big unuseful list. This make also people without his own experience reading this saying "Korg is rubbish, while Yamaha is perfect" that's not the spirit of the forum. I always replied with facts, of what I'm sure. Are you ?

> poorer chord recognition(compare pa 80/1x and a cheapo yam psr )or 1500 side by side.

as stated in some other topics here in SynthZone, starting from Pa1X os 2.50 Yamaha and Korg are absolelutely winners, no doubt. Have you ever tryied this ?

> speed the tempo up around 150 & up.trigger the LH chords fast and list how they react.when in yam it's smooth,on pa you'll hear hiccups or timing problems (acc instruments/bass to acc trks)within the measure/bar.

I never experienced this problem and never seen this complain here or in Irish Acts, at least recently. Have you ever tried this ? If yes tell me the exact steps to reproduce it so I can test and confirm (if any .... and report to korg accordingly ...), otherwise these will remain only words and not real facts.

> sample ram up to 32 mb only(for some)

ok, a little amount but at least it was always here with pa series (and not in ....), offering the possibility to work with Akai library convertion, or free Triton data (a good library is available on the net). Do you know what I mean ? ;-)
A little off topic comment here: sometimes I prefere small memory but well used, since I've heard sounds of gigabites (into a computer of course) sounding really bad: not always bigger is better. Sampling is an art, and I had good opportunity to load some akai samples (not so big, really) from good library working really well (to replace some "so and so" internal sounds I did not like).

> The 'user-interface' is confusing because of the double/triple functions of many buttons. e.g. One button is used for selecting intrument group Piano AND Saxes.... it depends on another 'select' switch (with LED) what is selectable.
(in yam most under 1 button to select-style or sound- and one to choose).
Big time problem (when you are in performance mode and want to change preset program eg.piano to sax(go out of perform mode to program mode,select switch,choose sax catagory,choose alto sax ,etc-multiple buttons to press).

interface is a matter of taste. I found much more intuitive the touch screen and cannot explain you why (I often found myself pushing the display of a ...., with no lucky). Regarding sound selections I made everything in the SongBook and I can prepare my STS for styles, and also SMF or mp3 (do you know about this not available in .... ?). If sometimes, to change things or for some reasons, I've to select 2 buttons (instead of one that's not always, this must be clear) it's not a problem for me, since my already programmed STS works in 90% of cases.

> same problems with style select.can't go from 8/16 beats to jazz/latin without pressing the EXTRA select switch.(remeber shift button on PC keyboard ?,(though you don't have to hold it down)it's very irritating for most.

same story with the SongBook: I'm not playing single styles, I'm playing songs, (while looking for "xxxx bossa" instead of playing "Desafinado", it's stupid) especially live where there is need for fast selections. While live I select a song in the songbook and the correct style/smf/mp3, sts (with clear names - no blind buttons like in ....), arrangement, fx, txt file w/chords and lyrics, drum kit, volumes, easy sound edit, drum mapping, kick&snare designation, fill mode, ....... everything is ready with just 1 (one) single selection. Did you know about this ? Where are all these functions in your favourite arranger ?

> The touch-screen sometimes has tiny 'buttons' that are hard to touch because they are close to another button.

Not a problem for me. The real problem is that sometimes the touch is not so precise using fingers, and this must be improved.

> Access to styles during seq playback is forbidden. You can locate them, but you can't change one, or have or ready when the seq is done. Same in reverse if you are in acc mode...you can't access the sequencer in live mode.(you can do this in yam).

wrong, you can select (but not play) styles in song mode and viceversa and having it ready when the previous song is completed. This is why in the display you can always see what's selected for styles and 2 seq. Have you ever tryied this ? But also in this case I use the songbook so I've not the problem to deal with style mode and song mode that's sometimes annoying in Pa1X. Songbook make the transition transparent and you have only to play, that's my first interest (not selecting buttons). It is the real plus of this instrument in my opinion, it's better than in any other instrument so far, even if still largely understimate. Some features like the txt link (I've short memory), the intuitive sorting feature (like in a pc - you click the top of the column to get the order for it immediatly without rotating the selections until you find the right one - get this after your counting button pressures for selecting sounds or styles ?), genre & artist fields, key info, and the pc editor are incomparable. Check it out this while using it in a real situation. If you like to play, and not pushing buttons, this is a real winner: plays all (SMF and mp3 included!), fast, customizable and plenty of useful informations (description fields, key info)like nobody else.
Another killer feature is the marker handling: they are unlimited (not just four) and can use real names (eventually imported from SMF that already have them programmed). You scroll the list, showing the measure and the real name, you select it and you can totally rearrange a whole smf live, jumping here and there. Have you ever tried this live ? It's not so funny as playing with the arranger, but much better than the common smf player (like those with 4 blind markers).

> Sounds shut off when new ones are triggered. This is only a problem if you switch alot in the middle of a phrase, or
with the sustain pedal down to free up a hand for navigational purposes. If you switch between Program and Performance
mode the current sounds shuts down for a second during the switch.

Yes, agreed this is annoying also for me and must be improved.

> No option to add live drum beats to a seq like Yamaha and Ketron do. I've come to love that feature. I like to "modernize" some older sequences by adding some new, hip beats to them

I hate this feature. Changing only the drum and not the whole rhythmic parts accordingly(bass, rhythm guitar or piano, etc) is only a joke in my opinion. I've made a lot of arrangements, using my computer and sometimes I needed to rewrite a lot of tracks for a stupid rhythmic change that I found necessary to improve the song.
Sorry but I found this feature completely unuseful, for me rearranging a song is something different than changing a simple drum track. For simple similar "games" I make use of .... [see the following]

> ....even a multipad adds alot

you can use the pads as you want. In Pa1X there are a hundreds of sequences pre-programmed, much more interesting of ... multipads where you have sometimes to trigger two pads just to have the guitar strumming + noises (so the best sound available), not a clever solution since this can be done with just one like in Korg. Also in this case have you ever tried this ?

> Some drum fills are still a bit unconventional, and busy compared to the style. (Volumes, instruments etc .....).

Yes, sometimes this is true, anyway all is editable (like a do where needed - but also competitors styles are NOT always perfects for me, that's clear) and this is largely surpassed by the inspiration that you get from some Korg styles, than in other "zum-pa-pa" arrangers. Have you ever used one of these "wonderful" styles to rearrange your song (in Quick Record mode), instead of changing only the drum part mixing a smf with a style ? This, as always in my opinion, has much more sense.

> Effects mixer is pretty cryptic with only 4 sends. I prefer the Yamaha design where I have control over each sound's EQ,

no probs even here with the fx sends (cryptic !! why ??), and "nice" having the eq even if I don't have a real need actually, frankly speaking, it's not something changing my life considering the Pa1X sound.

> FX, Vol etc in a separate window. Nothing shared like the FX buss in the PA series.

the fx buss in the pa is in one page (mixer - FX Send tab). Have you ever checked this ?

At the end, as previously said ,we see the story in two different ways, and also this story must come to an end. Will be this the right time ? :-))

Cheers.

[This message has been edited by Booby (edited 09-26-2005).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Booby:
[B] (and we know that your beloved Yamaha has a list of them available here),I always replied with facts, of what I'm sure. Are you ?


----------------------------------------------
SO have I ,with the right topic,I don't put (or paste specs)when I say arranger function,I say ARRANGER function,not karaoke or smf play back featutes to beef it up.
--------------------------------------------

> poorer chord recognition(compare pa 80/1x and a cheapo yam psr )or 1500 side by side.

> speed the tempo up around 150 & up.trigger the LH chords fast and list how they react.when in yam it's smooth,on pa you'll hear hiccups or timing problems (acc instruments/bass to acc trks)within the measure/bar.

I never experienced this problem and never seen this complain here or in Irish Acts, at least recently. Have you ever tried this ? If yes tell me the exact steps to reproduce it so I can test and confirm (if any .... and report to korg accordingly ...),


------------------------------------------------
I did and recommed you to do so too.make sure you you change LH chords rather fast and compare.compare which one can handle smoother.
-------------------------------------------

> sample ram up to 32 mb only(for some)

ok, a little amount but at least it was always here with pa series (and not in ....), offering the possibility to work with Akai library convertion, or free Triton data (a good library is available on the net). Do you know what I mean ? ;-)
A little off topic comment here: sometimes I prefere small memory but well used, since I've heard sounds of gigabites (into a computer of course) sounding really bad: not always bigger is better. Sampling is an art, and I had good opportunity to load some akai samples (not so big, really) from good library working really well (to replace some "so and so" internal sounds I did not like).


--------------------------------------------
I said Korg sounds are BETTER than yam or roland over all(true wk station sounds).You still have to reread.

if you like low sample ram ,it's your choice.but you shouldnt promote lower sample ram is better than bigger sample ram.it's not about built in.it's the max ram you can update.

--------------------------------------


interface is a matter of taste. I found much more intuitive the touch screen and cannot explain you why (I often found myself pushing the display of a ...., with no lucky). Regarding sound selections I made everything in the SongBook and I can prepare my STS for styles, and also SMF or mp3 (do you know about this not available in .... ?). If sometimes, to change things or for some reasons, I've to select 2 buttons (instead of one that's not always, this must be clear) it's not a problem for me, since my already programmed STS works in 90% of cases.


----------------------------------------
interface could be a matter of taste,but prefering to push 4 buttons for a simple function (instead of 1 or two) would be a bad taste.yes STS is a pre programmed sound selection(like reg mem).not a on fly select like choosing a new sound when you want it.
--------------------------------------------

> same problems with style select.can't go from 8/16 beats to jazz/latin without pressing the EXTRA select switch.(remeber shift button on PC keyboard ?,(though you don't have to hold it down)it's very irritating for most.

same story with the SongBook: I'm not playing single styles, I'm playing songs, (while looking for "xxxx bossa" instead of playing "Desafinado", it's stupid) especially live where there is need for fast selections. While live I select a song in the songbook and the correct style/smf/mp3, sts (with clear names - no blind buttons like in ....), arrangement, fx, txt file w/chords and lyrics, drum kit, volumes, easy sound edit, drum mapping, kick&snare designation, fill mode, ....... everything is ready with just 1 (one) single selection. Did you know about this ? Where are all these functions in your favourite arranger ?

-------------------------------------------
same story?again you are repeating the same specs.
it's obvious that you've never tried a yam or a roland.almost features mentioued above are done by yam/roland more than 5 yrs ago.where have you been?Do you know that Korg started to copy PSR format (SONG BOOK feature is copied from MUSIC FINDER feature after years of /complaints/dumb design -no feature until pa1x)(kick and snare designation? yes it's pretty useless for arrnger function ,since in a drum kit you need more than kick and a snare,you can never replace a 808 kick to jazz and pretend to work ,that feaure is good for programming styles,not for live use,you can only do that by again multiple button pushing to get to that page,just to get the idea)(what about individual drum sounds on fly?,can it do that ,I don't think so).
by the way having song book (or music finder )feature doenst give any excuse to push multiple buttons to choose sounds/styles since we are doing realtime,not pre programmed.
----------------------------------------

> The touch-screen sometimes has tiny 'buttons' that are hard to touch because they are close to another button.

Not a problem for me.

------------------------------------------
good for you if you like pushing multiple buttons to choose something but may not good for most.
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> I use the songbook so I've not the problem to deal with style mode and song mode that's sometimes annoying in Pa1X. Songbook make the transition transparent and you have only to play, that's my first interest (not selecting buttons). It is the real plus of this instrument in my opinion, it's better than in any other instrument so far, even if still largely understimate. Some features like the txt link (I've short memory), the intuitive sorting feature (like in a pc - you click the top of the column to get the order for it immediatly without rotating the selections until you find the right one - get this after your counting button pressures for selecting sounds or styles ?), genre & artist fields, key info, and the pc editor are incomparable. Check it out this while using it in a real situation. If you like to play, and not pushing buttons, this is a real winner: plays all (SMF and mp3 included!), fast, customizable and plenty of useful informations (description fields, key info)like nobody else.
Another killer feature is the marker handling: they are unlimited (not just four) and can use real names (eventually imported from SMF that already have them programmed). You scroll the list, showing the measure and the real name, you select it and you can totally rearrange a whole smf live, jumping here and there. Have you ever tried this live ? It's not so funny as playing with the arranger, but much better than the common smf player (like those with 4 blind markers).


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again you are repeating smf,mp3 play(markers -roland Discover anyone?) .I'm talking about ARRANGERr mode.

>
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> No option to add live drum beats to a seq like Yamaha and Ketron do. I've come to love that feature. I like to "modernize" some older sequences by adding some new, hip beats to them

I hate this feature. ]

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good for you.
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> ....even a multipad adds alot

you can use the pads as you want. In Pa1X there are a hundreds of sequences pre-programmed, much more interesting of ... multipads where you have sometimes to trigger two pads just to have the guitar strumming + noises (so the best sound available), not a clever solution since this can be done with just one like in Korg. Also in this case have you ever tried this ?


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yes just recently with new os(pa 1x only)not other PAs(50/60/80 ).again getting wise copied from yam after more than 5 yrs but good for them.(they still need to update the layout)
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> Some drum fills are still a bit unconventional, and busy compared to the style. (Volumes, instruments etc .....).

Yes, sometimes this is true, anyway all is editable Have you ever used one of these "wonderful" styles to rearrange your song (in Quick Record mode).

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again you are talking about the sequence,not arranger.
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> Effects mixer is pretty cryptic with only 4 sends. I prefer the Yamaha design where I have control over each sound's EQ,

no probs even here with the fx sends (cryptic !! why ??), and "nice" having the eq even if I don't have a real need actually, frankly speaking, it's not something changing my life considering the Pa1X sound.
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again talking about the features,as I said in my post Korg has better SOUNDS AND EFX than yam or roland.

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At the end, as previously said ,we see the story in two different ways, and also this story must come to an end. Will be this the right time ? :-))

Cheers.
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from the beginning,I said I like KORG sounds and EFX,hardware,duability.sequencer,sound editing, etc.
Korg lacks big updates (functions) wise in years,when they do they are still behind the competition(arranger function wise).
don't tell me song book is Korg started(it's copied from YAm ) after years of complaints.
multi pads(update which can play loops) was a feature of more than 6-7 yr old PSRs(another copied feature).in Korg it has always been single sounds(yes even on pa 1x until recently).


the story will come to an end now ,but I would recommend you to play/check other arrangers than Korg to understand what they can do.Again this is for ARRANGER function only.



[This message has been edited by jamman (edited 09-26-2005).]