A great 'break-up ballad' I'd completely forgotten about. I just heard a version by Buddy Jewel that sold me on it...
http://www.bmgmusic.com/catalog/product/cd_detail.jhtml?productId=50365

I recall it being done by a doo-wop group of the 60's. As it turns out, The Casinos, 1967, but also recorded by Johnny Mathis, Perry Come Eddie Ardold, and several others... great song.

I haven't heard Buddy Jewell's but Neal McCoy's version, also a country artist, is one of my Top 5 songs of all time. I'm not kidding. It stops me in my tracks. Far better than the original to me.

Here's Neal McCoy...
http://www.bmgmusic.com/catalog/product/cd_detail.jhtml?productId=24376

The 2 versions are very similar.

As some of you probably know, the Casinos were from Cincinnati, OH. Gene Hughes, one the founding members of the Casinos passed away last year and my band Impact was ask to play for a tribute to Gene at a local club.

The song was recorded by many different artists through the years as listed HERE

Dave

BREAK UP???? No way !
It's a total love song ... with only hope and passion implied !

OK, 'prospective' break-up...

"If it don't work out, then you can tell me goodbye... If you must go, I won't grieve..."

IMO, she's gone

Did you even LISTEN to the words ... ?
Kiss me each morning - for a million years
Tell me you love me for a million years
If you must go - oh no I won't grieve
If you'll wait a lifetime before you leave
Tell me you'll love me for a million years
THEN, you can tell me ....

See????? total love song !!!!!

Of course, that's easy... but go a little bit deeper and read between the lines. Sure, he's totally in love, but where does "then if it don't work out" and "if you must go" come from? (there's been signals in this relationship) Face it Dave, he's madly in love, but she's gone (and he know's it), it's history...

But that helps make it a great song.

There's NO way - you missed the whole point ( and the beauty ) of the lyric ...
He says paraphrased)
"After a million years, you can go if we don't get it right by then."

A MILLION years, my friend.
She's very much THERE.

By the way, John Loudermilk wrote this song. Now, THAT is one crazy cat. I read an extensive interview with him. Like two entire chapters of a book called "Guitar Pull." By Philip Self. Which I highly recommend. About songwriters. One of my fave books of all time.

This Loudermilk guy is wealthy. He retired long ago from royalties a rich man. And he is BIZARRE. He is VERY intelligent, you can tell. But he talks about all kinds of WAY out there stuff. Like aliens and alien abduction and all kinds of weird stuff. It was almost like he was trying to see how wild he could be in the interview. But really, it was two entire chapters. I'd really like to talk to that guy.

I hear ya... but... BUT, he wouldn't be using such phrasology if he wasn't very much aware that there's a major problem. You can call it a love song, but it's one-sided. Keep in mind, many, if not most, songs do not provide simply a superficial message.

We can probably agree to disagree, I like the song my way and you like it your way.

Man, I hope tomorrow night's game is better than this (VT/AUB)

I'm a simple romantic at heart, dispite my share of "oops's". A million year commitment says something major in my books.

So, there's a game tomorow huh? Imagine that.

One of my fave ballads of all time - the hammond solo hooked me in the first place. We always end the night with this song, dropping the volume at the end to say our thank-you's and goodnights.

Sweeeeeeet.

A fellow by the name of Bob Armstrong played that Hammond solo. He still plays around town in a weekend band named Cannon. Incidentally, Bob is a terrific singer as well.

One of the beautiful things about a GREAT lyric is that people can put their own interpretation to it and have the song touch them in their own special way ....
t.

Hee Heee .... always the politician !

Kinda like bible study...

I hear ya !

Yep, "Then You Can Tell Me Goodbye" is a great I-VI-II-V7 '12/8 feel' LOVE song that remains at the TOP of my performance set list as well. This one is GUARANTEED to fill the dance floor with couples smooching. I enjoy using the harmonizer to emulate the vocal harmonies of the Casinos.

I think Glenn & UD are BOTH right. From the singer's POV, this is a LOVE song through & through, promising his girl a lifetime of devotion, but it's also clear (to me) that the singer feels there's at least 'some reservation' on her part about such a commitment.

The power of a singer is having the ability to personally interprete and deliver the(lyric) line to reflect their own POV.

The key to achieving this (for me) is first MEMORIZING the words completely AWAY from the keyboard. DON'T sing the melody, but speak them like you're delivering lines in a play. Set up the scenerio (scene) and figure out the: who, what, where, and why of the setting.

Example: My name is John, and Mary and I have been dating for a year. I've been madly in love with her since we met, but though she told me that loves me too, she had told me in the past that she wasn't ready (yet) to make a lifetime commitment (marriage). It's a warm romantic evening on our 1 year anniversary, and I've finally decided (with engagement ring in hand) to pop the question (delivering the words of the song).

Once I'm able to speak & deliver (express) the words naturally and convincingly from begining to end (fully memorized), phrasing & delivering them with a natural cadence, then it's finally time to add the melody and actually SING them.

I guarantee your songs will have much more power and meaning (to both you and your listening audience) if you apply the above techniques .

Scott

Scott, you're absolutely right. I know both you and UD have been preaching this for some time and it makes a big difference. You look and sound better/more professional and have more fun!

Glenn

Yep, that's at least "ONE" thing that both Uncle Dave & I can AGREE on. - Scott

You've got to love the bII#9 chord at the end of the turn around. That's why I like Jazz. It's on every other tune I play, and it never sounds dull or monotonous to me.

OK Boo, what's the bII#9 chord at the end of the turn around??

Yep, the bII#9 dominant tri-tone chord substitution (Gb7#9 in the key of F) is definitely the 'must hear' cool sounding funky chord you gotta play (especially with the pros) on this tune, even though commerical charts usually only give the basic vanilla V7 chord. - Scott

C is the easiest key. So in C you play the C# chord which is the flated 2 chord with a 7th and a #9th. Thus the notes are C#,F, Ab, B, E, = bII7#9 or C#7#9 (Db7#9)

Are you making fun of me? That is the beautiful chord right before the I, Tonic, or Root chord what ever you call it. Use this right before every root chord in the tune. Yes! even at the end of the bridge. This chord is the reason I like the tune.

If you do jazz you get to use the bII7#9 chord a lot. If you only do pop tunes in general you only get to use it on "Then You Can Tell Me Goodbye" and maybe in the last 60 years you might fine one more Pop tune that might use it, but I doubt it.

For horn players Jazz is where it's at. Ask Dexter, Coltrane, Rollins, Griffin, Gerry Mulligan.

There are lots of pop tunes I enjoy playing and singing along with the keyboard. But when a musician walks in he listens a lot closer if you pick up you horn and improvise on "All The Things You are" and it's not just the same old blues licks that you play on a blues chart.

I'm talking horn players. So don't you one man band guys get your feathers ruffled.

Dave does Nightengale Sang In Berkley Square. On it and other tunes like that you can always use the bII7#9 before the ending tonic, root chord. It sounds great when you retard at the end and use it. It just doesn't fit on Blueberry Hill and Stormy Monday.

Try using the bII7#9 on an ending, and instead of the tonic chord if the ending melody note is the tonic note, play the raised 5 chord before the ending tonic chord.

For example, in C insted of the same old V7 chord before the C at the end of a tuen, substitute the bII7#9 for the V7 chord and then use the Ab and while holding the tonic melody with your voice resolve to the tonic chord which is C in the key of C. Make sure the ending melody note is the tonic note C when you hit the Ab chord.

I sure hope you're not making fun of me Glenn. That's not very nice. I'm almost as old as Gary you know?

This chord substitution is elaborated about in a book I mentioned before. It's called Inside Outside" by Bunky Green. You can get it from Jamie Abersole.

If you're serious about music you should get it. It will explain in 10 pages what you may not learn in a life time of just playing gigs unless you're working with someone of Bunky's caliber which is gonna be hard to do/

A Google did not find it. It found this page...
http://www.hickeys.com/cgi/display.cgi?cart_id=&page=/ja.htm

...which mentions the book in fine print as an associated book, but it's only a mention.

bII7#9

I'm confused on a chord you keep talking about. The above is what was typed into this page after I copied and pasted. What are the two characters right after the "b"...? It typed two Roman Numeral "I" characters. This is confusing me.

I should let Scott or boo or any of the more formally trained musicians answer this, but the II refers to the second chord of the scale (key) you are playing in. In boo's example, playing in the key of 'C', the second chord is 'D', but in this case it is "bII" so the 'D' is flatted ... (is there such a word ) ...

As I said, I am not as formally trained and don't claim to have a great ear, but I have used that chord sequence for years because 'it sounded good' ... It's nice to know that I was right ...
t.

The only correction to Tony's explaination is that in the key of "C", the II chord of teh scale is always a minor chord, so to be more precise ... it's a "Lowered D minor chord with a raised, or sharped 9th"
The Roman numerals depicting minor intervals should be in lower case also.
eg:
I(Maj)
ii(min)
iii(min)
IV(Maj)
V(Maj)
vi(min)
vii(this chord is actually diminished, but I don't know the right symbol to type on this keyboard!)
****
...that will bring uis back to Do, oh, oh, oh ..... (get it?)

Dave ... thnx for the more precise explanation ...
For the diminshed symbol - (dim) ?
t.

Ditto.

Knowledge of the music theory behind it is of course advantageous, but FIRST & FOREMOST: trust your EARS, and let them be the judge to what sounds right. - Scott

What I'm saying is that I literally do not understand what is showing on my screen referring to this chord -- bII7#9.

You will note in what is typed in the sentence above, it says b-I-I-7-#-9

That is NOT what is showing on my screen in Brickboo's post. It shows some kind of vertical character. It's not an "i" and it's not an "I"... I don't know what is is.

Point is, I know some basic theory but what he has written, I couldn't figure out how to play the chord because I've never seen this.

[This message has been edited by SemiLiveMusic (edited 01-05-2005).]

In the key of C the Dm7 is called the IIm7 and the II7 is a D7. Depending on the chord structure it may not always be the IIm7. It most certainly could be a II7.

When using the roman numeral system, the II chord needs to be addressed as either IIm7, IIm7#9, IIm7b5 etc so on and so forth. The D7 should be addressed as II7. A D7b9 would look like II7b9. It could also be IIM7. The capitol "M" denotes a D Maj7th.

We used the number system in 1959 in the group I worked with. The bass player introduced the system to me. Way back then with a song request that I may not have been familiar with, while playing live, that the rest of the band knew and wanted to play, I could play a solo on tunes I'd never heard before. All I needed was for the Bass player to whisper the chords to me as the song progressed during my solo. Such as: I, IV, II7, V7 in my ear.

Many musicians can do this. I’m not a genius. I’m a Cajun who cheated his way through high school. No I’m not proud of that statement. OK.

If you figure the number system out, all you need to know is what key you are in. It works in any key. Think about it for a few weeks and it becomes clearer. Some of you I know, know and understand this already. It’s not for you, it’s for the ones who don’t know this system that I‘m trying to explain this to.

I‘m not trying to show off. In jazz it’s a must. Bunky Green, Charlie Bird Parker and those guys probably knew this stuff before I was born. Well maybe not before I was born1, but definitely before a young whippersnapper like Dave was born. Got em again. Man! I just love it!

In the old days if it was a Dm7 in the key of C, the bass player would (literally) say II minor seven. If it is a II7 he just says II seven. This is simpler than using the letter names of a chord after you learn the system. Of course, if you aren’t familiar with the number system, then it is going to be like a foreign language to you

Notice for the II7 he didn’t need to say “D major chord with a dominant 7th. He just simply said II7. Musicians who use this system understand this. Once you get the concept of this system you really get to appreciate it.

All of this is insignificant in a one-man-band which is what this forum is about and I’m elated to be here. But, if you play with other musicians all the time, it would be beneficial for you guys to figure this out. It’s like short hand I guess if you were a writer. Eh Gary?

I know I’m boring most of you, however, I hope maybe I’ve helped a curious mind.

Not boring at all, Boo.

I learned the basic system years ago and was told it was called the "Nashville Numbering System". I find the easiest key for me to play in is F#. With the advent of the transposer button on arrangers, it opened up a whole new world to me and made it possible for me to play with a variety of different bands over the years.

It takes a little study to get it down, but it is worth it...especially when playing with other musicians who know it.

Eddie

Wow - this thread sure took a sharp turn, huh?
This is basic thory, and should be vital for all musicians to learn.

I don't know where the Nashville term came from, but I know we we're using it in the 50's and I never heard it called that at that time. I now notice that BIAB refers to it as the Nashville whatever. Maybe someone can share some light on this.

The guy I learned it from was leaning heavily toward jazz at the time even though we were doing Fats Domino, Frogman Henry and Ray popular tunes with that band. "What"d I Say" was probably the most over-all popular tune at that time. It might have been in the early sixties. I can't even remember what I had for breakfast an hour ago. But I don't forget music and how to swim or ride a bike. Why is this so?

Dave if you make light of it like everyone should know this after two weeks of training, the ones that don't know will be embarrassed and won't inquire. Don't forget, we like inquiring minds here.

I have a buddy who can play Maliguinah, (Gary how in the heck do you spell that?) on a mandolin, but doesn't have the slightest idea what we are discussing here.. Some people really strictly play by ear. Perhaps if they worked at it for a while and see that anyone can learn the basics about music, they will learn, and the music world will be a better place.

In the song of this discussion, the chord before the tonic chord at the end of the bridge and each turn around is not a bIIm7#9 but a bII7#9.

A person can even use a V7 if he wants to, but on the recording it is not the bIIm7#9 but a bII7#9(Db7#9). Don't forget, I'm talking the key of C here. I don't know what key the record is in. We are discussing the Numeral system thus saying the II7#9 chord is the same in any key. We don't have to spell it out. That is the simplicity of the Roman Numeral system.

If you are confused, in the key of C, the notes are Db, F, Ab, B, and E. The raised ninth is the E note of course. That comes before the tonic chord(C)throughout the song in the key of C. It might be beneficial to mention that at the end of the turn around on the last two beats, you play V7 (G7) for one beat and then you play the bII7#9 (Db7#9) for one beat.

Man if I catch too much slack for this, I'm gonna refrain from the Roman Numeral system and just spell the chords out.

[This message has been edited by brickboo at least 100 times and probably is still confusing.(edited 01-05-2005).]

[This message has been edited by brickboo (edited 01-05-2005).]

Boo...
It may be folklore...I don't know. But, what I was told by a buddy who used to appear on the Grand Ol' Opry was --- A lot of self-taught guitar pickers would wander into Nashville looking for their big break. Most could not read, but had great licks.

In order to play in transposed keys, some would use a Kay-Po (I'm sure that is not spelled right) and all they cared about was the finger positions on the fret board. Calling out chord changes was no help to them. So they developed a numbering system that worked in any key.

Maybe folklore...maybe not. But, that's how I heard it.

Eddie

I actually have the book on the "Nashville Number System" .... but I don't recal if they admit to inventing it or not.

BTW - I played the topic tune today for 50 people and I asked each to comment on the content - 100% of the crowd felt that the couple is very much together. It's just a clever play on words in how long they will be together. It's not just me now, it's SCIENCE !

Hey Dave you know me, never one to pick an argument, but IMHO it sounds like he's gong ho to make the committment and she isn't 100% sure at the time he's telling her this.

[This message has been edited by brickboo (edited 01-05-2005).]

Boo... thanks for the clarification. I've used this chord, but never had it identified by name, only by something that sounded good to me, which is how I find most 'off-center' chords and modulations that I play. Never-the-less, knowing the theory from a more technical aspect allows us to utilize chord structures more appropriatly, and that's a good thing.

BTW, I'm glad this thred took the turn it did... I think many of us could benefit from music theory discussion.

Glenn

Thanks boo for taking the time to explain this.
On your recomendation ( I think from an earlier post) I bought the book inside outside by Bunky Green. I found it online at a place called The Bass Place I think. I haven't had time to get into the book yet.
Like I said thanks for the non
judgemental explaination.
It is a welcome relief after all the bickering of the last few days, in certain other posts.

------------------
qqqwq@hotmail.com

I'm glad to help. I'm self taught and this stuff almost drove me crazy trying to keep up with some of the guys in New Orleans years ago. I didn't have $3 an hour to pay a teacher in those days let alone $20 an hour.

I'm a slow learner but after I get it, it sticks in my head if it's something I enjoy and especially if I can make a couple of bucks with the knowledge.