The only correction to Tony's explaination is that in the key of "C", the II chord of teh scale is always a minor chord, so to be more precise ... it's a "Lowered D minor chord with a raised, or sharped 9th"
The Roman numerals depicting minor intervals should be in lower case also.
eg:
I(Maj)
ii(min)
iii(min)
IV(Maj)
V(Maj)
vi(min)
vii(this chord is actually diminished, but I don't know the right symbol to type on this keyboard!)
****
...that will bring uis back to Do, oh, oh, oh ..... (get it?)

Dave ... thnx for the more precise explanation ...
For the diminshed symbol - (dim) ?
t.

Ditto.

Knowledge of the music theory behind it is of course advantageous, but FIRST & FOREMOST: trust your EARS, and let them be the judge to what sounds right. - Scott

What I'm saying is that I literally do not understand what is showing on my screen referring to this chord -- bII7#9.

You will note in what is typed in the sentence above, it says b-I-I-7-#-9

That is NOT what is showing on my screen in Brickboo's post. It shows some kind of vertical character. It's not an "i" and it's not an "I"... I don't know what is is.

Point is, I know some basic theory but what he has written, I couldn't figure out how to play the chord because I've never seen this.

[This message has been edited by SemiLiveMusic (edited 01-05-2005).]

In the key of C the Dm7 is called the IIm7 and the II7 is a D7. Depending on the chord structure it may not always be the IIm7. It most certainly could be a II7.

When using the roman numeral system, the II chord needs to be addressed as either IIm7, IIm7#9, IIm7b5 etc so on and so forth. The D7 should be addressed as II7. A D7b9 would look like II7b9. It could also be IIM7. The capitol "M" denotes a D Maj7th.

We used the number system in 1959 in the group I worked with. The bass player introduced the system to me. Way back then with a song request that I may not have been familiar with, while playing live, that the rest of the band knew and wanted to play, I could play a solo on tunes I'd never heard before. All I needed was for the Bass player to whisper the chords to me as the song progressed during my solo. Such as: I, IV, II7, V7 in my ear.

Many musicians can do this. I’m not a genius. I’m a Cajun who cheated his way through high school. No I’m not proud of that statement. OK.

If you figure the number system out, all you need to know is what key you are in. It works in any key. Think about it for a few weeks and it becomes clearer. Some of you I know, know and understand this already. It’s not for you, it’s for the ones who don’t know this system that I‘m trying to explain this to.

I‘m not trying to show off. In jazz it’s a must. Bunky Green, Charlie Bird Parker and those guys probably knew this stuff before I was born. Well maybe not before I was born1, but definitely before a young whippersnapper like Dave was born. Got em again. Man! I just love it!

In the old days if it was a Dm7 in the key of C, the bass player would (literally) say II minor seven. If it is a II7 he just says II seven. This is simpler than using the letter names of a chord after you learn the system. Of course, if you aren’t familiar with the number system, then it is going to be like a foreign language to you

Notice for the II7 he didn’t need to say “D major chord with a dominant 7th. He just simply said II7. Musicians who use this system understand this. Once you get the concept of this system you really get to appreciate it.

All of this is insignificant in a one-man-band which is what this forum is about and I’m elated to be here. But, if you play with other musicians all the time, it would be beneficial for you guys to figure this out. It’s like short hand I guess if you were a writer. Eh Gary?

I know I’m boring most of you, however, I hope maybe I’ve helped a curious mind.

Not boring at all, Boo.

I learned the basic system years ago and was told it was called the "Nashville Numbering System". I find the easiest key for me to play in is F#. With the advent of the transposer button on arrangers, it opened up a whole new world to me and made it possible for me to play with a variety of different bands over the years.

It takes a little study to get it down, but it is worth it...especially when playing with other musicians who know it.

Eddie

Wow - this thread sure took a sharp turn, huh?
This is basic thory, and should be vital for all musicians to learn.

I don't know where the Nashville term came from, but I know we we're using it in the 50's and I never heard it called that at that time. I now notice that BIAB refers to it as the Nashville whatever. Maybe someone can share some light on this.

The guy I learned it from was leaning heavily toward jazz at the time even though we were doing Fats Domino, Frogman Henry and Ray popular tunes with that band. "What"d I Say" was probably the most over-all popular tune at that time. It might have been in the early sixties. I can't even remember what I had for breakfast an hour ago. But I don't forget music and how to swim or ride a bike. Why is this so?

Dave if you make light of it like everyone should know this after two weeks of training, the ones that don't know will be embarrassed and won't inquire. Don't forget, we like inquiring minds here.

I have a buddy who can play Maliguinah, (Gary how in the heck do you spell that?) on a mandolin, but doesn't have the slightest idea what we are discussing here.. Some people really strictly play by ear. Perhaps if they worked at it for a while and see that anyone can learn the basics about music, they will learn, and the music world will be a better place.

In the song of this discussion, the chord before the tonic chord at the end of the bridge and each turn around is not a bIIm7#9 but a bII7#9.

A person can even use a V7 if he wants to, but on the recording it is not the bIIm7#9 but a bII7#9(Db7#9). Don't forget, I'm talking the key of C here. I don't know what key the record is in. We are discussing the Numeral system thus saying the II7#9 chord is the same in any key. We don't have to spell it out. That is the simplicity of the Roman Numeral system.

If you are confused, in the key of C, the notes are Db, F, Ab, B, and E. The raised ninth is the E note of course. That comes before the tonic chord(C)throughout the song in the key of C. It might be beneficial to mention that at the end of the turn around on the last two beats, you play V7 (G7) for one beat and then you play the bII7#9 (Db7#9) for one beat.

Man if I catch too much slack for this, I'm gonna refrain from the Roman Numeral system and just spell the chords out.

[This message has been edited by brickboo at least 100 times and probably is still confusing.(edited 01-05-2005).]

[This message has been edited by brickboo (edited 01-05-2005).]

Boo...
It may be folklore...I don't know. But, what I was told by a buddy who used to appear on the Grand Ol' Opry was --- A lot of self-taught guitar pickers would wander into Nashville looking for their big break. Most could not read, but had great licks.

In order to play in transposed keys, some would use a Kay-Po (I'm sure that is not spelled right) and all they cared about was the finger positions on the fret board. Calling out chord changes was no help to them. So they developed a numbering system that worked in any key.

Maybe folklore...maybe not. But, that's how I heard it.

Eddie

I actually have the book on the "Nashville Number System" .... but I don't recal if they admit to inventing it or not.

BTW - I played the topic tune today for 50 people and I asked each to comment on the content - 100% of the crowd felt that the couple is very much together. It's just a clever play on words in how long they will be together. It's not just me now, it's SCIENCE !