I placed this new topic due to the strong statements about this in Nobby's earlier post, which in fact has nothing to do with Karaoke., but anyway I copied the start of this discussion.
As sooner or later you will be asked to do a karaoke show, I wonder what the feelings are about it!

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Uncle Dave:
Oh NO !!! A TV out ????? Pleeeease tell me you're not thinking about a "K" type show?
( I can't even say the word!)
I've said it)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Dave
I never understood WHY you disliked GEM...
It's obvious now

Seriously though, Karaoke ( I can say the word) is not a problem at all in Europe and no real competition for musicians.
It exists as a gimmic and fun, but also is used at schools during music lessons to teach boys/girls some feeling for measures, some feeling for singing etc...

Then there are a lot of solo pro-keyboard entertainers who do one night there usual performance and another night a karaoke evening.

Afterall performing music is for a large part intended to amuse people anyway.!
Whether you appreciate real performance , midi performance , even dj alike, The majority of the audience couldn't care less how you manage your performance.
As the majority of the professional musicians are not in the top ten charts, they need to make a living, and if that requires to do a karaoke evening, there's nothing wrong with that.

so I think I disagree

Fred



Scottyee
Member posted 09-05-2001 01:02 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by freddynl:

As the majority of the professional musicians are not in the top ten charts, they need to make a living, and if that REQUIRES to do a karaoke evening, there's nothing wrong with that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

eeek! If I end up having to host karaoke shows, I'll be the first to 'get out' of the music entertainment business !

Everybodys a singer or so they think. Its here, it ain't going away. People like it, its entertaining to them and gives them a chance to showoff. What we as pro musicians think of it will not change anything, for gods sake people come up to me on stage and ask where they can buy "TAPES" like mine to sing along with when I'm playing my ass off all night Sheeeesh. Can't blame them though, most of the audience is not as technologcaly learned in what we do as keyboard artists, let alone try to make them understand how we do it. Lets face it there are Dj's, "K" artists, and us "Real Musicians". We know that, we have to make a living so I don't let it fluster me theres a piece of pie for everyone is you hone your craft and play & sing from your heart to give the audience a good live show every nite, theres no sucstitution for talent my friends.

I don't always completely agree with Uncle Dave on issues, but on this issue, I TOTALLY agree with EVERY SINGLE point he makes here. Karaoke is the pro musician entertainer's ENEMY !

Amen, Brother Dave!
DonM

Well, when karaoke becomes "baby-sitting for drunks" it has definitly nothing to do with neither showbizz nor entertainment.

But under the right surcomstanses it can be a really entertaining. The chance is of course bigger at a privat party - and before there has been to much alcohol!

Michael

Karaoke is a Japanese word made from two words kara and oke. Kara means empty and oke means orchestra. I don't think any of you consider yourselves to be "empty orchestras". I found this further explination from the Cambridge Dictionary Online. Karaoke: a form of public entertainment, originally from Japan, in which recordings of the music of popular songs are played, and people sing the words, sometimes reading them from a TV screen. From the posts I've read since joining this forum it seems clear the vast majority of musicians here pride themselves on not only being entertainers but skillful entertainers and leaders of the show. We're a group of musicians who work very hard mastering our intruments so the crowd we are entertaining can get a "real" show played live from the heart instead of someone just playing tunes from a pre-recorded source and projecting lyrics on a screen. My wk8 can display lyrics on a TV screen and that may be cool to some degree but I don't want to ever rely on that feature to carry my songs. So I am in agreement with Uncle Dave. Leave the Karaoke to the Karaoke bars. Just my 2 cents worth.

Very interesting reading, but .......
when a "musician" use a keyboard, "play" midifiles as
playback and sing along, is'nt that a kind of karaoke too?
By using the sequensed songs, or even by using the autocomp
is a kind of playback, only performed in a different way
than the "real" karaoke-machines.
At least the karaoke-singers are honest about what they do,
and do not fake to be a "live player" (or performer) as
many of the "artists" I've seen around lately.
Also "mini-disks" containing playback is a usual method
among the musicans nowadays. And again, is'nt that a kind of
karaoke too??

Some years ago, before this "wonder-machines" was a fact,
there usualy was a band, duo or trio etc., but now there
is very much "one man bands" performing in weddings and
other local arrangements around.
Thanks to this "automatic music machines" as we call
keyboards, also there is a lot of people try to add more
income by do this kind of work, and the big competition
lower the prices, and this make it very hard for any who
want to make a living only by performing.

Anyway, I love to see that people have fun, and karaoke is
fun too, but I also love to play on my keyboard, specially if
it's along with other friends who share the music as a great
and health-bringing hobby.

Happy playing!
GJ

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Uncle Dave:
[B]OK - here goes..... this post is NOT for the feint of heart! This topic is very important to me!
...................
You know me I am allways very interested in different opinions and why they are different!

In fact we don't disagree that much.
(I comment that if we have more comments!)
.........................................


That's great at house parties, school functions, and private parties
................

So,
What will you do if you are asked to make
a part of your show a karaoke show on a
private party?

Fred

I suppose when it comes down to it, whatever tools I need to convey a song the way I'm hearing it in my head I will use. The definition of karaoke struck me as interesting though. When my wife and I start playing out in nursing homes and such, having a means of projecting lyrics unto a large screen TV may help some of the seniors enjoy the show more. At the risk of sounding like I am back tracking on my "leave the Karaoke to the Karaoke bars" statement, for the most part I would probably resist anything that resembled a Karaoke show. I just want to play the music God gives me and hopefully it will serve to be an encouragement to someone. That's why my wife and I are getting geared up to visit nursing homes and possibly hospitals. They especially need to encouraged.

Dave: 'WELL SAID' again. I feel as STRONGLY about the karaoke issue as you, but just did'nt have the energy (without blowing up with anger first) to sit down and put it all into words. I'm so glad 'YOU' were able to say EXACTLY how I feel about this. You saved me the emotional stress of having to post the exact same thing myself. THANKS!

That was very well said Uncle Dave. I think you're spot on. As one just gearing up to got out I will chew on this for a while. I also want to use all the tools available to me and that is just what they are, tools. If there was a hall of fame for arranger posts, I'd vote that one in !!

Well,
I guess I got Uncle Dave's temperature rising a bit ??
Just remember that it is not you, but the topic that I am giving my
very personal point of view about.

My definition of karaoke is:
Music already recorded in one way or another, hit the play button
and sing along.
And if everything is on tape or MD, included the singing, and the
artist is acting like this is live, then I call it cheat or fake,
not a live performance.
(As we see almost every day on TV, singing as high and clean as ever,
even when doing all kinds of things except from singing.
Wonderful instrumental solos, and not a cable plugged in, neither the
powercable to the amps!)
Maybe thats what they call unplugged?

Life lessons?
Most of the local performers who use songs known by others do the
best they can to copy the originals, we use to call it cover-songs.
I would rather see it done more personally, but the guests/audience
often seems to like the music similiar as they use to hear it in the
radio or TV.

I have seen karaoke singers who have memorized the words, and even
perform and sing far better that some of the "pro" do, so you can't
count all for one.
Many who have the gift to sing wonderful can't play any instrument,
or maybe not read scores, so already done arrangements is a nice tool
for them, as all the technical equipment is for us.

About the mentality and the rudeness among people, not ONLY the karaoke
singers, I fully agree with you.
I guess this is a way to behave that we see more and more, and the
respect for other people is a "dying art".

/Quote:
In reality - I'm sure it was created to save money by cutting out the
need for a live performer. It's doing just that.........
Quote\

And so does the automatic arranger keyboards and midifiles, one single
machine is the whole band.

Maybe it is possible to agree about that I do not have the very similiar
point of view as the pro's, but that I agree fully in when you or others
do your shows, you have the right to do it your way, use and without
being disturbed of too drunk "I am Elvis" or other guests who always want
to be the "one and only star".
GJ

Lets face it, Karaoke and DJ's are here forever like it or not. Modern technology has created them as well as what we do as arranger KB artists/entertainers. Years ago we couldn't do a solo act like we do now and "LIVE" bands were the norm at any venue.
Most of us who have been playing professionally for many many years remember those great times very well. The younger DJ's, "K" artists don't have a instrument playing background and no clue as to the way we experienced the business. All they know is hook up some speakers, plop in some CD's, Laser discs, TV screen, and everybody is a "STAR"! Times sure have changed. Society is musically split into these "GOING OUT" types of entertainment:

DJ's (club dancing, weddings, private affairs, blow up guitars and blasting music)

Karaoke Bars (people singing drunk to a TV, bar owners love this to make money on slower nights )

Piano bars 3 types, ( Jazz groups, Live Piano/keyboard player or Auto Piano with a disc to make it play music (Clavinova) or just piped in musak (no Dancing/Dinner)

Adult Dance Music, Ballroom, Latin, Contemporary (Live bands, solo Arranger KB artist, playing very danceable music for the over 45-80 yr old crowds. (Much needed) they are the "Forgotten people"

This is mostly what we have around this area in the North East USA, I know around the world is propbably different can you ad anything else?


Ahhhhhhh whats the use……………….Who knows what the future brings?
Just do what you can, have fun doing it, do it from the heart, and make people happy, life is too short to Dilly Dalley.




[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 09-07-2001).]

quote:
Ahhhhhhh whats the use……………….Who knows what the future brings?
Just do what you can, have fun doing it, do it from the heart, and make people happy, life is too short to Dilly Dalley.
end quote.

This I fully agree, no doubt.
GJ

I think maybe now everyone here can appreciate what myself and many in New Orleans and around the country went thru in the 60's.

Through the 50's and 60's we had bands. Five to seven piece bands. We made from the early part of the 50's $10 a night up to $25 a night in the early 70's.

In the 50's we had "Battle Of The Bands" going on regularly. What a high. Our band won two trophys. We were still in High School. As most of the others who participated.

We had piano, bass, drums, guitar(sax in every band)and our band had a trombone. Some had the same setup with a trumpet or another sax instead of the trombone.

Then came the Beatles. Just like the country scene, all people wanted to hear was a band with nothing but guitars.

So,that was the end of the big band era, and 5 to 7 piece bands with horns. They are a rarity anymore. The poor horn players that might have been.

Now anyone that gets run out of the music business today has other things to blame it on. Karaoke and technology.

Its a tough life trying to make a living in music. To most of you, I recommend getting a job and do the music part time like 99 percent of musicians do anyway. And to Dave, DonM, Scott, Dnj and the others here that do make a living, I envy you.

Really how many here make a living and support a wife and at least 1 other person besides DonM and Dave? I don't know about Donny and Scott if they have families or not.

Should I pick a fight with Uncle Dave again. He's mellowing a bit lately. I'm real proud of him. Dave, calmness makes for a longer life. Or so I keep reading in many an article.

I will admit that off and on for me music has been a blessing and a curse. If you want to do music you have to learn to live with it. Lots of things in music have to do with being in the right place at the right time. Many times its has nothing to do with how good or expert you are.
Boo

[This message has been edited by brickboo (edited 09-07-2001).]

[This message has been edited by brickboo (edited 09-07-2001).]

Boo, I don't currently have any extra mouths to feed, so it makes it easier to make ends meet and enjoy a comfortable lifestyle as well. I also teach music and do some computer consulting. I'm not rich but I'm happy I'm able to do what I lOVE.

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 09-07-2001).]

Well, since you asked . . .this is going to be long, and sort of personal, but what the heck, we're family, and if you're not interested click the back button. I won't be offended.

As some of you know, I've been having a real battle supporting my family doing music recently. I feel most of the problem is brought on by the huge number of karaoke "artists" in this area.
For years, I just picked and choosed from the jobs offered to me. There were one, two, three, four-piece (and larger) groups working all over, for decent money.
In the past two years, many of the places using live music have quit, or drastically cut back. Instead they let the customers get drunk and entertain themselves by singing to each other.
Now, many of the larger groups have cut their prices. It's easy to hire a pretty good band here for $100-200 on a weekend night. I'm not talking about the bad pickers, these are decent-sounding groups.
Back to me--all of a sudden my phone stops ringing and the offers fall off. After years of not having to worry about bookings now I have to start hustling again. So I go to talk to some of my old jobs and find out that, sure they would love to have me back, but now they are getting "a whole band" for less than my price. (As we know, the "whole band" may or may not be better, but that's beside the point). So they want me to cut my price. Do I do that, or go back home and watch T.V.? Or do some intense self-examination as to what I can do to get the income back up. Here there are several options, such as "get a day-job", become a "k" host, go on the road to a better area.
None of these options work for me. I did try the day-job thing for a few months, but by Golly, I'm an entertainer--not a regular person anymore.
As some of you around the world know, I started picking brains--mostly Donny in NJ, (who incidentally has a family and a wife and possibly a few girlfriends and supports them all very well), Uncle Dave, Scott Yee, and others. I found that the most consistant and rewarding work is being done in nursing homes, retirement centers, health-care facilities, etc. So I started calling all around the area. All the nursing homes were overjoyed to have me. "When can you come, just name the date". They said. The word got out and I had 14 of them on my caller I.D. in about a week. BUT, the most they would offer was in the area of $25.00. That's right $25.00, and they don't even want to pay that much.
But, I was getting pretty desperate, so I agreed to do a few of them on a one-time basis. I figured that when they saw that I was a cut above the free stuff they were used to getting I could ask more money. That actually worked to a degree. Some of them will now pay $75-100, but not very often.
Then I started networking with some of my local contacts. The Shreveport area is loaded with musicians with connections to Nashville, the Opry, the now-defunct Louisiana Hayride (which I DID appear on in it's dying days--that's probably what finished it off). I finally got hooked up with a guy who had a workable solution.
His name is Dean Mathis, and you may remember him for his group, The Newbeats. They had a worldwide number one hit called "Bread and Butter", plus other top 10 hits. He produced records (remember those) in Nashville for many top artists for years.
Dean has been organizing and along with some of the other "old-timers", such as David Houston before his death, performing shows for the nursing homes around the state. As it turned out he was in need of a "band" and partner. I was flattered that he asked me to participate in this project.
There is a special way in which the shows are funded, and I can't disclose the details, but it is quite lucrative and doesn't cost the nursing homes anything.
I've been totally snowed under with this work because it includes booking the various towns and cities, arranging the financing, doing promotion for the events and actually performing, averaging two shows a day several days a week. My income is almost instantly far better than it has been in several years.
But by far the best part of this project is that the people we play to crave the attention and the entertainment. We involve them in the shows as much as possible and to see their reactions is truly rewarding.
What a deal, making money doing what you love to do for people who love you for doing it.
I'm still booking the bigger jobs on the weekend when they come up, but most of the time I'm home to be with the family by mid-afternoon. Thanks Donny, Dave, Scott and others for pointing me in this direction.
I guess the point of all this is that the business IS changing, and we have to be ready to change with it or adapt to it. The same boom in technology that allows us to be Arranger entertainers is now making it almost too easy for anybody with a computer and a half-decent voice to give us competition. We must figure out how to survive and prosper in the face of bad economy, stricter DUI laws, advancing age (in my case), and the infamous K******.
I THINK I've found a solution that fits my particular case and qualifications. All I know is I gotta keep on making music.
DonM
P.S. I've developed a new website just for this venture. It's not quite ready for the public yet, but check it out anyway. Constructive criticism welcomed!
): http://donnymason.tripod.com/hayridesunshineshow/

[This message has been edited by DonM (edited 09-07-2001).]

Although I myself am more of a recorder/demo maker and not a performer, I feel for the performers. And I would like to make one significant distinction between performers (and I include every single arranger KB act), and karaoke machines:

One only has to press "play" on the karaoke machine and it does the rest, playing song after song, the exact same way, time after time. Can the same be said of an arranger KB?

On a KB, even if sequenced, somebody has to work the KB at some time, to customize a performance for a particular show. You need a real MUSICIAN working that KB. The keyboard musician, as opposed to a k-machine, is indeed PERFORMING.

Just my 2¢!


------------------
Regards and Aloha,

Charlie

A keyboard can easily be used as a karaoke-machine nowadays.
Just load some midifiles, press play, and there you go.
Not nessesary to play at all, and newest models even have the
possibility to send lyrics to videoscreen, so the modern
keyboards is indeed also a kind karaokemachines if anyone want
to use it that way.
GJ

Dear all After spending 22 years working with young people exhibiting challenging behaviour arising from hurts etc I am aware that there is no such thing as right and wrong. Dear Dave Evil is another issue. I dont do Kar gigs and i wouldnt like to as I love to play and "create the pulse" however I wish to steer clear of discouraging anyone else from doing so. There is enough for us all.Best wishes Pierce in Ireland PS flowerssupply was before I retired to Music Now aged 55 and swingin.

Bravo Uncle Dave!
No cats and dogs in the same box.
I can see the true situation in my country.
Today,prof.Kb musicians are missing a lot of money.
False musicians(No one band man but several
smf's man) and Karaoke are the hawks!

Yeess Uncle Dave;its's all right but I want separate amateurs and false musicians. I like amateurs,I have some Kb students(48) but I don't like false musicians ( No spotlihgts in Kb,Smf disks and a large and high music stand to hide the fingers...).
Mbr,Chico

Uncle Dave,
I see your point about your work, and that entertaining is your work
as an professional musician.
Also about that the amateurs having fun, also in your area, make a
very hard competition and also to get desent payed gigs.

I am not a "pro", not even a skilled musician, but believe it or not,
I quit "gigging" for weddings, restaurants, local dances etc. nearly
10 years ago.
And what do you think was the major tool who made it possible for me
to do all those week-end jobs, yes sir, the Auto Arranger KB!
(And of course two of my friends who play guitars ang sing very well)
Give me a piano or whatever, and I propably could not accomp a simple
common singalong in a desent way!

By rebuilding and tweak the styles, we did it our way, and the final
result was just as good (or bad) that people want us back, and 90% of
the contracts for more "gigs" we got by people who was guests in those
arrangements, or by people who had heard about us by others.
We did perform a lot of "gigs", but since we all have our regular
occupation to take care of, and that fact that we missed about every
week-end that we could share with our familys, now we only meet now
and then to have fun and and "jam-sessions".

My point is, that I guess for the "pro's" we also was a kind of
"pain in the ass", when signing jobs who might be given to them if we
was'nt there.
Even if I did a lot of work to make the accomp as good as I could do,
I only played the left hand chords, played some simple solos and pushed
on the nessesary buttons. Cheated as good as I could, that's it.
We had fun, and most important of all, people on the floor had fun.
And they did'nt care less if we was "pro" or not,believe me.
If it was'nt us, there where others, and now it is also possible for
those who have a lot of midifiles, the equipment to playback and sing
along, and they do, really, and here we go again... karaoke.

What really make me fustrated about fake/cheat or not, is when you watch
a national broadcast on TV, it is a competition among several bands or
performers, and not one of the actors play or sing live, then it's cheating.
Better play it on the radio............
GJ

Dave there wont be a lot of fun in the ould Kar debate if you pull out now -- sure its great fun as it is. Best wishes to you and your father.Pierce

As I'm reading the posts the Banner above says Karaoke crazy... funny
Just want to come to Uncle Dave's defense a little.
First of all I want to mention to Gunnar that I'm German but have been living in the US since 13 years. Even though the US is a western country, it is very differnt from Europe, in terms of cultural things, especially music... so it is sometimes not easy to compare the needs of the musician as well as the audience in Europe and the US. We think very different in Europe and expect different things. What I'm trying to say is, I agree with you, since I know where you are coming from, but I also agree with Uncle Dave.
Yes you can use a KB as a K-machine, but you can also Play REAL music on it on a very profesional level. I think that is what Uncle Dave and the others are talking about.
Greetings
Eric


[This message has been edited by Eric, B (edited 09-09-2001).]

Yes Eric,
the keyboards can be used to make as professional and real music as
ever, and I thimk future developement will make it better and better
for each new model to come.
The next step is probably going to make it play without touching it,
(as you know, touch-screen is a kind of "old fashion" now), just tell
it what to do or play, and just watch what happen....

The culture differences is maybe more present than I know, but the
strong influence we have from USA might have closed the gap a bit?
I have the greatest respect for U-Dave's and other peoples work and
meanings, and I clearly can see all his point of views too.
I've said it before, it's only my very peronal thoughts, not any kind
of attack against U-Dave.

Regarding to my point about sequensed and playback music, I'll try to
say it in another way to mirror what I try to say:

My mother used to do a lot of hand-knitted sweaters etc. to add income
to the family. (Btw, most of those was sold in USA.)
So one day she tried a knitting machine, had to use the hands to operate
it as well, but even if the products look nice and the quality maybe was
just as good, she refused point-blank to to use it anymore. When the
sweathers got the mark inside, it stood "handknitted" in it.
This was cheating, and could not be called hand-knitted she said, even
if the customers never would have known about it and the sweathers was
just georgious!

My other point is that the karaoke/shows/singers etc. also is a kind
of performance for many people who really do it in a great way.
Maybe some of the reason for the tight market for musicians also can
be relatet to the fact that the AutoArr KB's make it much easier for
amateur "one man bands" to get the jobs, because it's not bad music
coming out of it, and they might ask for less money too?
And when so many pro's also have choosen to go solo and "the band" is
one of these wonderful music-machines, doese'nt it also be a part of
the reason who make more competition about the same market?
Karaoke.....
maybe it's better to try to face it, rather than close the door and say
this have nothing to do with entertaining other people than themselves.

I remember some of the "old folks" used to shake the heads and tell us how
cruel the music we young ones played was, that it was not music but only
"noisy hullabaloo" and that we destroyed the whole music culture!
You'll never know, maybe we did, but is'nt it a bit of the same thing we
can see happen nowadays too?

GJ

[This message has been edited by Gunnar Jonny (edited 09-09-2001).]

That's right Gunnar. One think for sure, things always change and we won't be able to stop progress. Many have tried and failed. We can only try to adapt, find our spot in an ever changing world, and make the best out of it.
Eric

OOOppppsss .... I did it again .......

Anyway, I don't fully agree with your description of todays players U-Dave,
simply because I have a feeling about that you count "one for all", or "all
for one".

There is a lot of really good young musicians around nowdays too, maybe more
than ever before, just because of that fact that music is so much more of
our everyday life then ever before.
I have never, ever, seen so many young kids who are going to music school
and learn to play piano, fiddle etc. as it is during the past 10 years, or
maybe it's more like 15.
Not to forget to mention all the brass bands at school and elsewhere. High
quality players too, if you ask me.
I'm very happy to tell you that we have more coming eminent skilled musicians
that ever before, and I'm sure this goes for the rest of the world too, just
wait and see.

About using examples from the Bible and the talk about where to find evil or
not I think we should not do in this forum.
Let the music and related be the topic, there is enough holy wars around the
world as it is already.

GJ

Btw,
keep on playing music UD, and I'll take care of the Pizza.

You are right Gunnar. Again the music education in Europe is by far better than in this Country. It starts already in school.
Symphonies and Orchestras are funded and supported by the Government.
Not so in the US however. Sport is the big thing here. Lots of money... Music is being cut out in schools because of funding and smaller Symphonies are struggeling to survive.

That being said, you might understand UD's point better. Again I don't think you can compare those two cultures, but you can share whats going.

Even though Europe is imitating more and more the OUTER aspects of the US, they are still worlds apart in their mentality.
Eric

Just look at any Synphonic/Phiharmonic Orchestra and you'll see 90% Asian/Europian Musicians!

I rest my case :>)

Firstly I would like to thank everybody and specially Uncle Dave for their comments on this subject.
As Uncle Dave commented, it's a pity not too many seem to care! (38 posts sofar, but only 13 participants)
Afterall we are talking about a future doom scenario if the rest of the world is heading towards the direction Uncle Dave is afraid of.
I agree with Uncle Dave here if that would be the case!
But apparantly it looks like that probably Karaoke is not such a problem in most countries, at least no real threat to professional keyboardists.
Then again how many real pro's are on this bbs? (I mean full time earning their money as musician! - mm.. could be next topic.)

Anyway I think all participants have very valid arguments against Karaoke.
I am glad two europeans (like myselve) commented as well, as we can clearly see the difference between europe and usa.
Uncle Dave, I am living close to Amsterdam and I cannot find ANY Karaoke Bar!
This does not mean it doesn't excist, but it surely is no problem in the Netherlands!
Karaoke in Europe is to my experience (apart for education purposes) only used on private parties and in holliday resorts, which in fact have a private character also.
This immediately brings up another "topic" by the way...
I will post this after I finished my comment.

Then another important difference!
PAYMENT.
The two professional keyboardists I know personally (and they are very good!) and once in a while do a karaoke show, get paid more as they receive on their usual performance! (they have to bring in more gear, and have to talk a lot more, being the showmaster which is another skill.)
Minimum for real pro's for one night deals is between DFL 1500,-- and DFL 2500,--(US $ 600,-- to US $ 1000,--)

I think most of the pro players on this board do both! (keyboardist and showmaster)
If I recall well from other posts with some rates I remember, I think You are VERY UNDERPAYED in USA!

So personally I still think karaoke is no problem, as it is used in other envirements and has it's place.

I would be the last to compare skills or numbers of musicians per country, but indeed as Gunnar claims, musicianship is Not Dead in Europe, it is very much alive!

As solo arr.keyboardist you are the musician, technician, roady, showmaster etc..
So I consider this as one of the toughest jobs in the musicindustry, where you need very special skills to do this.
This is not how it is appreciated by the majority of the public though!

enough said, let's close the topic.

Fred

Live & let live & be happy
If you are good enough at whatever you do there is always somebody that will be prepared to pay for the service
look on a karaoke night as being some sought of talent contest
where the owner of a club or whatever the venue knows that he is going to make good money from such a night
now he knows he can supply the backing for the so called up & coming talent by just using tapes/mini disk/cd/smf now there is no way the guy is going to go out & hire himself a band to perform this service, but if he is organising a dinner dance or some other classy function that requires live music then I am sure he will push the boat out.
50s.60s.70s.80s.90s.are decades in the past this is the new millennium & there will be many,many things that we do not like it is one big competitive world we live in & "he who pay's the piper calls the tune"
Johnnie

Compromise I often thought of putting words of songs on a screen to allow people sing some !!!! of the songs so I didnt do it yet and I may never but I get great fun at times pointing to my text files on the x1 screen and allowing someone to sing along Especially if they come up to sing and cant get it right. I wonder if this would turn ye on ??

Will this karaoke system integrated on the arr. keyboard has the grading system found on a dedicated karaoke machine? It's funny though that the worst performer got the highest score than the good one. That means that if you're too drunk you've got the highest score.

[At the end of the day karaoke is just an improved form of entertainment over the days when you would go to a bar & there would be the obligatory busker on the old piano (play it again Sam) be he a semi-pro or pro, in most instances the only difference is one also has a regular job & plays out & the other plays out .
The busker of old would have to be prepared for the punter drunk or otherwise to request to sing a song with an approach like punter"can you play so & so"pianist "what key do you sing it in" punter "pass" pianist " ok you hum it & I'll play it "
At the end of the performance the busker would congratulate the punter "well done"no matter how bad it was performed. So off goes the punter really pleased with himself with something like move over Sinatra I am on my way. Goes back to the bar buy's another 5 drinks & tells the world the guy on the piano is really great he can play anything.
Now is it really any different today except technology has given us a lot of assistance with the advent of the arr keyboard with auto rhythm & built in harmonies,key change facility,sequencing etc, it goes on. pre recorded backings for karaoke !!! It's all part of the game
So don't let ourselves get carried away.
Johnnie