After watching the posts of Frank Rosenthal and even some of my own, when evaluating my setup, I would say that my pc has truly become a hybrid soft synth / arranger, and probably if I look back it has been going that way for a while.

I use the word hybrid because I still primarily use two hardware pieces as sound modules for acoustic sounds, the Motif ES and occasionally the PA80. I have not gone the Gigasampler / Sampletank route to date, but it may happen in the near future. I do use the Yamaha SYXG-50 xg based soft synth module, but only because the superior syxg100 has no support for windows xp. I also have the Sound Canvas soft synth, and use it on occasion as well.

I use soundfonts as well, but not with my Soundblaster Live card. The SB live does not seem to like the environment in my new PC, at least not with the updated SB XP drivers. It functions with them, but it gets cranky and makes odd sounds at times. I just installed the non SB KX drivers, and how well they work remains to be seen. My Midiman audiophile card works just fine though.

I now use a couple of vst soundfont hosts. The one I like in particular is Crystal. It is a freeware hybrid analog modeling / sample based synthesizer and surely one of the best around. I would certainly pay a good buck for it if it were a commercial product, and indeed hope to donate something back to the developer. Tim Conrardy, who hosts the Atari - midi sites, has done a lot of programming for it ( he is not the developer ). It can use generated analog modeled waves, or sounfont samples, or a combination of the two. It is every bit as sophisticated as my Motif ES with the analog modeling board installed, when it comes to sound design, and in some ways much more. In fact, it is so much easier and quicker to introduce new samples ( ok soundfonts ) into it than it is with the Motif, and so many parameters can be adjusted quickly on the fly. You can do it almost instantly, unlike the architecture of the Motif which is simple enough but requires several steps. Rounding out my soft synth collection is the excellent freeware Superwave 8, which has inspired me to purchase it's even more sophisticated commercial cousin somewhere in the very near future, along with the Arturia Moog and CSv80 softsynths and the Pro 53 and Novation V station. RGC Pentagon, a rather inexpensive soft synth, is also excellent. All of these produce some very good synth sounds that can rival almost any hardware and exceed much of it. My ES and it's analog plug in board can't touch some of these for authentic vintage Synth emulations. The B4 demo ( B3 / C3 emulator ) is awesome, and is next on the list.

As far the arranger part, One Man band does the Yamaha styles in real time. It's interface is easy enough that I feel I could play it in a real time, live situation using a softsynth and good sound module. What is more challenging is matching the right sounds / setups to my sound module, but I am going to edit enough styles so that I can use it as an emergency backup to my PA80, with a laptop and the Motif ES as it's sound module. OF course, I also have the non real time arrangers, XG works sequencer, band in A Box, and Jammer pro 4 and 5. The latter are great for the do it yourselfers, the ones who like to make custom styles. JP version 5 is getting up to speed now, and you can introduce or play midi data in real time, and then insert it into a style part, and alter several note generating parameters to fit the style.

Other looping / step sequencing tools currently in the arsenal include Rythym and Chords pro, a midi rythym guitar emulator that adds nuances that are very difficult to play in real time, and slicy / fill in drummer, which allows for some very good and unique ( if one chooses ) drum parts. The AN150 software editor for my AN150 plug in board also includes a superb step sequencer in it.

I'd still like to see a OMB type program integrated with it's own soft sound
module(s). A program like that could offer a worthy alternative to a hardware arranger. I think it could very well happen. I'd also like to see Steven Kay release a karma emulation software that is compatible with synths other than the Triton and Karma.

With the right laptop and soundcard, I could use a lot of this stuff live. Changing softsynth patches is no harder than changing patches on my board. In fact, changing softsynths from one to another is pretty easy to do in realtime as well. I can't wait to "gig" ( sorry UD ) with a vitual Moog, CS80, and Novation K station. Awesome.... I don't know that I would use OMB as my primary arranger for live work ( the PA80 still wins for ease of use ), but I would use it if I had to as a backup and I think I could do pretty well with it.

AJ

AJ
A through look at your setup and sounds like you are transitioning. Their are a few (as I am sure you are aware)great composers at MoTown that use soft synths and giga and do outstanding work.

I certainly think it is the wav (pardon the pun) of the future.

You did not mention much in the way of the bread and butter sounds. What's you take on them and which programs are good for that?

Have you already or do you plan to perhaps put up a sample of what you are doing with all the toys that we could hear?
Terry

------------------
jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 01-22-2004).]

Terry,

I haven't had a lot of time as I've been taking care of the kids and working, ( wife has had a lot of medical stuff going on but it looks like she is going to be ok ). With the amount of time left over that I have had, I've been busy basically stripping my computer down, removing everything that I won't use, and integrating all of this stuff and enjoying the heck out of just playing some of the new synths, ( Stuff I only dreamed about just a few years ago ) while working on the 'ol chops. . I have put together some pieces though, so a couple of new tunes are imminent.

Now that the computer is pretty much where I want it to be for now.. ( my next gear lust is for a good sampler / workstation module.. along the Giga sampler line, for those bread and butter sounds ) my next task is to work on mixing a song for a good net friend who is in a far away land. ( ok California ) I'm looking forward to that. I don't how I'll make his tune sound in the end, but the process will be enjoyable for me just the same.

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 01-22-2004).]

Terry,
Does OMB work well(i.e., call up the correct
drumkits and sounds) when used with the Motif ES?

Bluezplayer, wow is all I can say. You are way ahead of most everybody including me!!!!

If you are going to use the heavy duty samplers for your high quality accoustic instruments, I would suggest also taking a look at Kontakt. GigaStudio 3.0 has just been shown at NAMM and will be out in late March or April 2004. It is suppose to be very good as well. Halion 2.0 is also supposed to be a good sampler. I believe it has the ability to load 128 instruments. So theoretically it should beable to do GM. I have not tested this. Halion is also supposed to be one of the better importers of the Giga Instruments.

You are going about designing your system the right way - an optimum mix of software and hardware. I took the route of software only as an objective/principle and to demonstrate the feasibility of such a system.

Vquestor, Bluezplayer will beable to provide the exact answer but you would think that the OMB will not necessarily select the correct drumkit given that the drumkits in the PSRs and Tyros will be different than those within the styles & Motif. However, once you have selected the appropriate drumkit (changing the drumkit within the styles using CasmEdit to the Motif drumkit of your choice) the various drum insturments within the drumkit will respond appropriately to your style, i.e., no misplaced dogs howling, handclaps, etc.

Bluezplayer, I am going to have to take a look at some of the Soundfont Samplers you have identified. Sounds interesting.

Bluezplayer, I am not certain how SBLive works but there were some very unusual problems installing the earlier versions of the Audigy 1 drivers. It could not properly be done with Windows XP with the SP1 installed. There was a unique procedure you had to use in the safe mode or install Windows XP then the SB Drivers and finally the SP1 Windows update. I phoned Creative and they said that is just the way it is - get used to it. The same applied to the early versions of drivers for Audigy 2. I am not certain what the new version of the SB drivers are like. They may have fixed this. Just thought I would point this out.

Bluezplayer, you would need the KX drivers if you are going to use GigaSampler or GigaStudio. It is the only way I know of getting the required GSIF drivers for this sampler and your soundcard. Midiman audiophile card has the appropriate dirvers.


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 01-23-2004).]

All this softsynth stuff sounds very interesting, but I wouldn't have a clue where to start. Can you, Mr. Rosenthal or bluezplayer, give us a 101 on the subject in as simple terms as possible? Or perhaps point us to a website that lays out the basics on this subject?

Yeah,
Me too I could use a basic primer on it as well.
Terry



------------------
jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

I will let Bluezplayer do the explanation given he is further along this path than I am. In general, the considerations are similar to hardware modules, e.g., Sound Canvas, MU100, etc. You would need to consider your application and the amount of money you wish to spend. For example:

* Live performance vs Studio
Arranger Software vs Sequencers, etc.
* Soft Synths:
Do you require GM/GS/XG - Program changes?
e.g., LiveSynth Pro, Sample Tank, Sonic Reality, etc.
Do you require very high quality accoustic instruments?
e.g., GigaStudio, Kontakt, Halion
Very Expensive!!!
* VSTi/DXi Host:
Are you going to run more than one soft synth?
e.g., B4, LiveSynth Pro, Kontakt, effects, etc.
If you do you might need a host program like Brainspawn's forte Ensemble, Sonar, etc.

Once you have decided on your application and the overall quality of the sounds you wish to have that will determine your hardware requirements. If you are going to use your system for live performances then a midi controller keyboard and a Laptop may be the answer. Otherwise almost any computer will do. If you are going to use high quality accoustic instruments then you need to get a pro quality sound card and use 2 7200 rpm 8mb cache hard drives (applications & samples). The hard drives are important in that the sounds are streamed from the hard drive in real time with very low latency. This allows for very large sampled instruments, e.g., Bardstown Bosendrofer 290 Grand Piano at 2.5 GB, etc. In addition, if you are going to use very high quality software effects, particularly reverb (more than one instance of reverb, e.g., separate reverb for each loaded instrument) then you need to spend more money on the CPU, e.g., 3.2 GHz, etc.

Otherwise the actual use of soft synths is much like hardware modules - just send it program changes and control changes or alternatively change channels on your midi controller keyboard, etc. - and play!!!! Plus you can tweak the instruments to your hearts delight and then some. The trouble is you may not find time to make music!!!


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 01-23-2004).]

Here is another person's take on a live rig to use:

'Very easy.

I suggest getting a 4-space rackmount case for your stage computer. There are system builders who supply them in those cases, and there are suppliers for them on the net--easy to find.

This gives you a more robust case. It will be a little long for most racks, SKB, etc., but the longer footprint Anvils will contain one very easily, along with your audio interface and a small line mixer.

I personally don't have mine racked in a case. I opted for an Anvil carrying case that it will fit into perfectly (rack handles down).

I have my other components in an SKB rack, including the audio interface (Layla), a small mixer (Alesis Studio 12R--nice for the purpose), a DigiTech Studio 400 (for mic FX), and a wireless receiver in that case--along with the standard Furman power-strip/light.

Everything is all pre-patched.

When I get to the gig, I unpack the rackmount computer and put it on the floor. Then I place the SKB on its front right on top of the computer and pop off the back panel. I pull out the power cord to the wall, the parallel cable to the Layla, and the power-cords to the monitor and CPU, plug it all in, and boot up.

I have found that it is actually faster to set up than my older multi-keyboard systems!! Once I'm booted up, I open Giga or Reaktor, whichever I am using, and open my performance-files, and let them load while I gets me-self a drinky-poo.

Once I'm back from the bar, I get my setup confirmed in headphones, get sound-checked into the PA, and I'm good to go. If it's a small room, and I'm responsible for my own amplification, I have a couple of Mackie powered monitors (the ones that look like EONs, except sound 1000% better). Sometimes I'll carry one for a monitor if I'm not sure how the PA situation will be.

Other than that, I have a Logitech Marble Mouse (trackball) velcroed to the right hand side of my SL-880 controller, a standard keyboard velcroed to the area right of the controller's editing buttons, and a Knobby Controller which sits on the other side of the SL-880. This gives me 16 preset CC combinations--great for controlling my various Reaktor setups.

If I am feeling REALLY adventurous, I take a MIDI-Merge box, and my WX-5 Wind Controller and PAD-5 lap-sized drum pad. Those can be really fun on more improvisational kinds of gigs.

I use a VERY el-cheapo grande Kogi 15-inch flat panel display, which is held perfectly by a guitar amp stand.

That's my live rig. I totally enjoy it, and despite the level of detail I went into here describing it, this thing sets up in a flash. It has never once given me a problem on stage. The only time it crashed was a case where I had damaged a disk-drive cable, and this was easily fixable. But I am totally rigorous about what goes on that machine--NOTHING except what is needed for its purpose.

The best advice I can give is the "second rack" situation, where everything lives pre-patched except the cables from the computer to the Layla and the power/keyboard/trackball cables. THAT is the key timesaver on stage. If you are in a situation where you play TV appearances, large festival shows, etc., you really do need this level of pre-hookup consolidation to get on and off the stage fast. If I am fully loaded into the venue, I can get my setup onstage and be ready to play in ten-fifteen minutes.

--------------------
Bruce Richardson
Bruce Richardson Music'

Me three. I would like to go this route as well, but I don't have a lot of money to spend. I find it a bit frustrating to find that I require a top of the line P4, when the keyboard mfg don't use powerfull chips. So how about a low cost system. (The web site for NI B4 says that their software requires a P266, that sounds reasonable). Any other less expensive, but still reasonable good quality softsynth pianos and some other acoustic instruments)?
Amplification: Yamaha YST MS50 80 Watt Speakers. That blows away the amplification on any arranger Even Technics)
Since I already have 2 arranger keyboards, it would be great if I could use them as controllers. I'm tired of the games msfgs play on musicians.
The PSR3000 will have mega voices, but not the PSR1500, on the next upgrade the PSR1600 will have the mega voices, but not the PSR600, etc.
Starkeeper


[This message has been edited by Starkeeper (edited 01-23-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Starkeeper (edited 01-23-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Starkeeper (edited 01-23-2004).]

Starkeeper, you can put together a very good sounding system just as you indicated. You do not need the top of the line PC to equal the best workstation or arranger keyboard sounds. The costs start escalating when you want to go top of the line accoustic instruments and effects. You could likely equal the quality of the PSR3000 with a Dell PC at $600 with a free soft synth and thousands of free (average) soundfonts.

For those who may be interested, I have found the following information:

I am still working with Rene of: http://www.rgcaudio.com/sfz%2B.htm
Most things seem to work ok except for the drums. Using Yamaha styles it will only pick the Standard Drum Kit in bank 128 even if you request the Brush Kit in 16256 (or Bank 127). Everything else seems to work well using GM or sYnerGiGS soundfont wavetables. In recent times I have gotten no response from Rene. He may be weary of me!!!

LiveSynth Pro may be forever lost given the following response I received from SoundFaction:
'Frank,

No response from my contacts, and they are normally quite responsive.

Doesn't look good. I know they sold the product to Music Playground at one point - you may want to look them up and contact them.

Kind regards,

The SoundFaction Team http://www.soundfaction.com/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank L. Rosenthal"
To:
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 1:30 PM
Subject: LiveSynth Pro & Alive


> I am a customer of both products. I have noticed that LiveSynth Pro is
> off-line for quite some
>
> time. Did they suspend business? Do you think someone will pick up on
> this excellent
>
> product.
>
>
>
> I would be interested in any information you may have.
>
>
>
> Thank you
>
>
>
> Frank L. Rosenthal'

Frank,
You have definitely piqued my interest. What recommendations would you make for:
CPU speed?
Soft synth?
Where would I find those soundfonts?
Less expensive alternative to NI B4?
Starkeeper

[This message has been edited by Starkeeper (edited 01-23-2004).]

What would the sfz+ cost, $110U.S., $143CDN?
Starkeeper

Starkeeper if you are going to just run average quality soundfonts which sound as good as a top of the line keyboard then I would make the following recommendations:

CPU speed? 1 Ghz (could go somewhat less)
RAM? 512mb to 1Gb - to load soundfonts into memory
Soft synth? - LiveSynth Pro (works best with Yamaha styles), VSampler 3.0, RGC sfz (or +) http://www.rgcaudio.com/sfz.htm
Where would I find those soundfonts? http://www22.brinkster.com/guraydere/ http://www.sf2midi.com/ http://www.personalcopy.com/home.htm http://www.hammersound.net/ http://sf2.chez.tiscali.fr/soundfonts.htm

There are many more. You could do a search on Google.

Starkeeper:

It seems to me that the sfz+ would be around $80 US and the sfz I believe is free.

There may be other alternatives but you could use soundfont B3 samples and add the more expensive B4 options at a later date.

You could also Email me re: LiveSynth Pro.


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 01-23-2004).]

I'm not sure how to tell anyone exactly where to start when going this route. Frank and I have taken a few different and many similar paths to achieve some of the same goals.

On the whole, my experience with soundfonts is mainly relegated to using the GM wavetable from Sonic Implants along with many free ones that I picked up from Thomas Hammer's soundfont site, and what appears to be the now defunct Soundsite.

I used to use soundfonts quite a bit with my Soundblaster live's synth. I would often route some of the soundfont sounds to the input of the PA80 so that I could process them with it's effects and sometimes layer them with the internal voices. I used the PA80 as the controller, routed it's midi output to the SB live synth, and then fed the audio from the Sf back to the PA80.
Now I use softsynths, but I don't need to route them anywhere for effects processing.

I'll give a quick basic on how to use a softsynth for real time playing. You need a midi controller. You're arranger or any midi kb will work. One that has adjustable knobs and sliders is preferable ( adjsutable meaning you can set the knobs to the midi cc parameters of your choice so that you can control more things in real time without having to use the mouse. ) I use the Motif ES as my controller and route it's midi output to the midi input of my Vst host sequencer ( for me it's the SQ01 ). Both my SBlive card and Midiman card include midi interfaces, which are needed to connect midi output from the kb to the computer software.

I then simply open the VST instrument of my choice. In SQ01 soft sequencer, there is a virtual "rack" in which to open my Vst's. I then assign this Vst to a midi channel, open it up from the "rack" for editing, and voila. It works and plays like a hardware module, but instead it's in my computer, and merges with my soundcard to produce it's sounds. One requirement is a low latency soundcard, so that what you play is reproduced almost immediately ( "almost" being practically imperceptible to human ears ). The midiman audiophile soundcard I have works fine at about 8 ms of latency. Any good Asio or WDM based card should do the trick.

That's basically it, in it's simplest form.

The Korg PA1x costs over 3 grand. The Tyros over $2,500. With each you're limited to it's OS and architecture, styles ( ok you can add new ones ).

Here is what my setup might run ( these are approximates ). Remember though, a lot of this is overkill ( especially for the softsynths.. you can get great results with far less ).

My modest computer cost a little over $500 USD

One man band - 30 USD

Jammer Pro - 90 USd

Band in a Box - 90 Usd ( you don't need all of these.. may be overkil.. but I like it

Soundfonts - free ( you can add commercial ones, but there are plenty of good free ones out there as well )

Musiclabs Rythym and chords pro ( with all the extra guitar styles and slicy fill in drummer ( definite overkill.. but I LIKE it..lol ) - 300 Usd. Those who are more into modern synth oreinted music could substitute a modular "all in one" type soft workstation such as Reason or Arturia Storm, ( and actually save money with the latter ).

You also need a good host for the Musiclabs R&C and drum tools above. N track and SQ01 don't work here. You need a Vst host anyway so... Sonar or Cubase SX .. another 300 Usd .

If you don't want the musiclabs stuff, you can get N track studio which is a very good low end sequencing and mutitrack ausio program and is also a Vst host for about - 70 USd. You could also use a freeware Vst host such as Buzz, or Plogue Bidule ( ok Plogue is "development ware" but the current beta works pretty well ).

Yamaha SX-yg Softsynth - about 40 Usd

One high quality softsynth up to 200 - 300 Usd, but plenty of other outstanding softsynths for a lot less ( RGC Penatagon is excellent at about 100 Usd )

Crystal softsynth - one of the best in the land and it costs - FREE

Superwave P-8 analog modeling synth - also free and also excellent. Makes me want to but the even mopre powerful commercial version and I probably will.

Midiman audiphile or similar soundcard - 200 USd


So far we've spent up to about around 1700-1900 dollars if you add ALL of this stuff, or a lot less without the Musiclabs plug ins and mid high range sequencer or Reason type modular soft studio.

Of course, if you are reading this, you may already have a computer that will be suitable. Many of us also already have some hardware that can be utilized sound modules and / or midi contollers. Otherwise, a decent midi kb controller can be had for less than 200 USd

A lot of it may be overkill, but the system gives me a ton more options than any hardware arranger ever could, at less than the cost of a high end arranger. Of course I added a few more commercial soft synths because I'm an analog modeling junkie, but not all of them are analog based anyway. I also have several other programs, but some of them aren't necessary for this application, while others cost next to nothing or were outright freeware.

Frank touched on something else that is important. Setup time. This stuff may look complicated to someone who hasn't used it, but I can load up OMB or my SQ01 sequencer with my favorite softsynths faster than I can setup my Motif ES ( I have to load all the samples and user "rom" for my plug ins from a smart media card ).
http://www.kvr-vst.com is a good place to find musch of this stuff and can help point you to several links for better tutorials on how it all works.

For me it's good value for what I spent, but it does take some nitial work to integrate it all.
AJ


[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 01-23-2004).]

Bluezplayer, provided a very good and detailed description of his hybrid music system. I have given mine in other threads but here is my core software:

VST/DX Host:
Brainspawn forte Ensemble

Auto Accompaniment:
Live-Styler
LiveSynth pro & sYnerGiGS (modified)

Lead/Melody Instruments:
B4 & Kontakt
Plus a full line of high quality virtual acoustic instruments (very expensive)

Effects:
Ultrafunk Sonitus:fx suite provided with Sonar

Vocal Harmonizer & Pitch Correction:
DecaBuddy & Antares

Sequencer:
Cubase SX & Sonar 3.1

Virtual Midi Cables:
Midi Yoke


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 01-24-2004).]

Starkeeper I did not comment on your following comment and should have:

"I find it a bit frustrating to find that I require a top of the line P4, when the keyboard mfg don't use powerfull chips."

I understand how you feel. I don't know the answer but my guess is that the hardware/keyboard manufacturers use more than one CPU Chip (of lower than today's standards or power). They could be using one for effects, one for running the sounds and one for the operating system. Also, with lower powered CPUs they don't have to use fans. In addition, the overall quality of the their effects and sounds in today's standard (while good enough for most live performances) is relatively modest. You can buy software (and hardware) reverbs in the thousands of dollars. These are very good but well beyond the reach of most of us.

To put this another way, you could go out and buy a Dell Computer with an Audigy Soundcard for $600 dollars and load a high quality GM/GS/XG 500mb Wavetable and sound just as good as a Motif (or better). This is half the cost of a Motif. Plus you can use your computer for many other things at the same time.

I hope this puts it in some perspective - its all relative. Starkeeper just think of all the choices you have today!!!


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 01-24-2004).]

AJ

Your call for including softsynths in soft arrangers was received loud and clear. I see the need for that and if not for technical difficulties I would have done that right away. Maybe next year.

If you encounter any problems using OMB with an external vst host and softsynths live on stage, then please let me know. Any suggestions for improvement are welcome. Making OMB a VST host, including a softhsynth or playing non-Yamaha styles is not possible right now, anything else goes.

Jos

Joe,

It would not be an absolute necessity to have OMB as a Vst host. I could link to my softsynths via a virtual midi cable like Midi thruway. having it's own propietary softsynth would make OMB an even more useful program. It would save the hassle of trying to match current Yamaha or Yamaha format styles to a synth that does not recognize XG parameters.

The SYXG-50 soft module could have been a good answer. Unfortunately, it has latency issues and the sonic quality isn't even on par with the lower end Yamaha arrangers available today. The SYXG-100 perhaps better addresses both of these issues, but Yamaha has not elected to include support for Windows XP.

I have some experience with sound design, and could probably make a suitable soundfont or program sample based sounds that are a good match for the Yamaha based styles, but that is pretty much the limit of my software programming skills. Making an actual software module ( with all the effecst and other bells and whistles ) that works and coexists with a Windows platform is beyond my limited capabilties. If I did spend the time needed and could learn to program more ( a lot of time that I just don't have right now ), it would have to be a commercial venture, and I would need to pretty much "start from scratch" to avoid copywrite issues. I would if I could Jos, but I just don't think I can right now.

AJ

AJ,

As I said this is not an option right now. Let me know if you find something else that might be improved using OMB on stage with softsynths.

Jos

How does Midi thruway compare to Midi Yoke?

My mistake. I meant to say midi yoke. I used midi thruway years ago when I had an PII with 300 mhz processor. Since then, I switched to midiyok.

AJe

Frank Rosenthal said, "You could likely equal the quality of the PSR3000 with a Dell PC at $600 with a free soft synth and thousands of free (average) soundfonts."
That's quite a bold statement. Would the quality of some of the free soundfonts be as good as Yamaha's sweet voices?
As soon as I upgrade my PC, will have lots more questions.
Starkeeper

A lot of it also depends on the effects Starkeeper. Dry, raw samples usually aren't going to sound particularly good until you apply real time effects to them. Today, with the advent of faster computers, it can be done.

I find the analog modeling synths I have to be sonically superior to the Motif ES and it's AN150 analog modeling plug in, for similar synth renditions. One of the soft synths I include in that is the freeware "Crystal", which outperforms many of the commercial offerings out there.

Musiclabs will be releasing a new guitar emulation software that appears to riv al the megavoice type technology found in today's top end synths. I never like making judgements based on demo's, but if the ones I heard are a fairly accurate gauge of what this software will sound like, it will easily rival anything currently available in hardware.


I'm only now getting my feet wet with wavetable type synths ( which are based mainly on digital samples, as are most of today's hardware synths ). I'm quite satisfied with the Motif's acoustic instrument emulations, but I certainly don't object to having additional quality soundsets as well. Where the Motif ES and pretty much all romplers I have played seem to fall short for me is in the synth sounds area. I played a Roland V synth the other day, and it sounded great to me. It's a real contender vs the Moog voyager, Novation K station, etc, and I think it really puts Roland back on the map. On the other hand, RGC's Z3ta and Pentagon softsynths sound just as good to me, if not better, and at a fraction of the cost.

AJ


[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 01-26-2004).]

Starkeeper, it may be a bold statement but with some effort it can be done. I may be wrong by using the word 'free'. I should have said at very low cost.

Here is how I did it for the accompaniment. I bought the sYnerGiGS Wavetable for $19 and 9 CDs of free soundfonts from the Soundsite before it went down. These 9 CDs cost me $49 for him to buy, burn and deliver them to me. Within this set of CDs you have to spend alot of time to find the pearls but they are there. These soundfonts were collected by him from all over the internet and other places. I use some of them as replacement instruments in the sYnerGiGS wavetable.

In addition, I got the Giga GM500 with GigaStudio and have converted them to soundfonts using CDxtract. These provide some very good piano, string, vibe, etc. sounds for my sYnerGiGS wavetable. At this point my modified sYnerGiGS 128 mb wavetable sounds very good for the accompaniment - better than any of the top of the line arranger keyboards. If I wasn't so old and lazy I would do the drum conversions to GM and use the Drums From Hell. This would again increase the quality of the accompaniment another order of magnitude - well above any keyboard out there.

Well how do I rate the virtual acoustic instruments in my modified sYnerGiGS, Tyros, Motif or any other keyboard? At best from mediocre to modest. These instruments are nonetheless amazing given the size of the wavetable and certainly are more than adequate for live performances. However, it is for this reason that I made the heavy investment in lead/melody virtual acoustic instruments.

Starkeeper, as you can see there is a range of possibilities that you can implement. You can always progress from any point at your own chosen speed. For example, at some time you may wish to have a very high quality guitar sound then you may have to spend $200 and get it. The good news is you can do it.

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 01-26-2004).]

Just to add to what Frank said, you're not limited any longer because, for example, you like the synth sounds on your korg, but don't like the piano.

OK, so you can add the piano plug in board to the Korg, but what if you don't like that very much either ? Maybe you're Yamaha doesn't have the best synth sounds on it ? Add the AN 150, which sounds pretty good, but it's only 5 notes of poly.. not very good for playing sustained pads. You're Roland has electric pianos that don't please you ? Ok, then you have to live with whatever Roland offers for expansion boards.

The point is, you're stuck in the hiearchy that the manufacturers give you to work with. Not so with soft synths and wavetables. Maybe an outstanding guitar sound does cost you $200. Still might be better than getting a synth or even an expansion board.

OK, you can add samples to your existing board. Trouble is, at least on the Motif, it's a very involved process to get from point a to point b. It isn't as simple as that. There are a lot of side roads that have to be taken from raw sample to ( good sounding ) finished patch. It's much easier to do in a software module.

AJ

I appreciate your input AJ and Frank. Since AJ brought up the fact that you need to bring effects to these raw samples, that leads me to the next question. How would I add the effects? I find the B3 voices on the PSR550 weak. They need a bit more tube grit and of course a deeper Leslie sim. The low notes (C3) IMO are too low. If it were a real drawbar organ I would push in the last drawbar half way in.
The Yamaha accoustic piano seems dead to me. IMO it needs more wood and string resonance and also a longer sustain.
The "Sweet Flute" is very good, but I think could still be improved upon.
The ability to be able to improve, say the piano voice and leave the rest alone, as suggested by AJ, is very appealing.
Starkeeper

[This message has been edited by Starkeeper (edited 01-27-2004).]

Many of the Vsti have built in effects already, but for those that either do not have them or have weak effects processing, add on effects processors are available for many soundcards. I have Spin Audio's ASIO fx processor for my Midiman Audiophile card, and the kx drivers for my Soundblaster Live can be used to add effects for that card.

Native Instruments makes the B4 softsytnh, which is about the best emulation of a B3 that I've ever heard.
You can find it here and try a demo if you would like:
http://www.kvr-vst.com/get/51.html


AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 01-27-2004).]