Starkeeper, you can put together a very good sounding system just as you indicated. You do not need the top of the line PC to equal the best workstation or arranger keyboard sounds. The costs start escalating when you want to go top of the line accoustic instruments and effects. You could likely equal the quality of the PSR3000 with a Dell PC at $600 with a free soft synth and thousands of free (average) soundfonts.

For those who may be interested, I have found the following information:

I am still working with Rene of: http://www.rgcaudio.com/sfz%2B.htm
Most things seem to work ok except for the drums. Using Yamaha styles it will only pick the Standard Drum Kit in bank 128 even if you request the Brush Kit in 16256 (or Bank 127). Everything else seems to work well using GM or sYnerGiGS soundfont wavetables. In recent times I have gotten no response from Rene. He may be weary of me!!!

LiveSynth Pro may be forever lost given the following response I received from SoundFaction:
'Frank,

No response from my contacts, and they are normally quite responsive.

Doesn't look good. I know they sold the product to Music Playground at one point - you may want to look them up and contact them.

Kind regards,

The SoundFaction Team http://www.soundfaction.com/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank L. Rosenthal"
To:
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 1:30 PM
Subject: LiveSynth Pro & Alive


> I am a customer of both products. I have noticed that LiveSynth Pro is
> off-line for quite some
>
> time. Did they suspend business? Do you think someone will pick up on
> this excellent
>
> product.
>
>
>
> I would be interested in any information you may have.
>
>
>
> Thank you
>
>
>
> Frank L. Rosenthal'

Frank,
You have definitely piqued my interest. What recommendations would you make for:
CPU speed?
Soft synth?
Where would I find those soundfonts?
Less expensive alternative to NI B4?
Starkeeper

[This message has been edited by Starkeeper (edited 01-23-2004).]

What would the sfz+ cost, $110U.S., $143CDN?
Starkeeper

Starkeeper if you are going to just run average quality soundfonts which sound as good as a top of the line keyboard then I would make the following recommendations:

CPU speed? 1 Ghz (could go somewhat less)
RAM? 512mb to 1Gb - to load soundfonts into memory
Soft synth? - LiveSynth Pro (works best with Yamaha styles), VSampler 3.0, RGC sfz (or +) http://www.rgcaudio.com/sfz.htm
Where would I find those soundfonts? http://www22.brinkster.com/guraydere/ http://www.sf2midi.com/ http://www.personalcopy.com/home.htm http://www.hammersound.net/ http://sf2.chez.tiscali.fr/soundfonts.htm

There are many more. You could do a search on Google.

Starkeeper:

It seems to me that the sfz+ would be around $80 US and the sfz I believe is free.

There may be other alternatives but you could use soundfont B3 samples and add the more expensive B4 options at a later date.

You could also Email me re: LiveSynth Pro.


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 01-23-2004).]

I'm not sure how to tell anyone exactly where to start when going this route. Frank and I have taken a few different and many similar paths to achieve some of the same goals.

On the whole, my experience with soundfonts is mainly relegated to using the GM wavetable from Sonic Implants along with many free ones that I picked up from Thomas Hammer's soundfont site, and what appears to be the now defunct Soundsite.

I used to use soundfonts quite a bit with my Soundblaster live's synth. I would often route some of the soundfont sounds to the input of the PA80 so that I could process them with it's effects and sometimes layer them with the internal voices. I used the PA80 as the controller, routed it's midi output to the SB live synth, and then fed the audio from the Sf back to the PA80.
Now I use softsynths, but I don't need to route them anywhere for effects processing.

I'll give a quick basic on how to use a softsynth for real time playing. You need a midi controller. You're arranger or any midi kb will work. One that has adjustable knobs and sliders is preferable ( adjsutable meaning you can set the knobs to the midi cc parameters of your choice so that you can control more things in real time without having to use the mouse. ) I use the Motif ES as my controller and route it's midi output to the midi input of my Vst host sequencer ( for me it's the SQ01 ). Both my SBlive card and Midiman card include midi interfaces, which are needed to connect midi output from the kb to the computer software.

I then simply open the VST instrument of my choice. In SQ01 soft sequencer, there is a virtual "rack" in which to open my Vst's. I then assign this Vst to a midi channel, open it up from the "rack" for editing, and voila. It works and plays like a hardware module, but instead it's in my computer, and merges with my soundcard to produce it's sounds. One requirement is a low latency soundcard, so that what you play is reproduced almost immediately ( "almost" being practically imperceptible to human ears ). The midiman audiophile soundcard I have works fine at about 8 ms of latency. Any good Asio or WDM based card should do the trick.

That's basically it, in it's simplest form.

The Korg PA1x costs over 3 grand. The Tyros over $2,500. With each you're limited to it's OS and architecture, styles ( ok you can add new ones ).

Here is what my setup might run ( these are approximates ). Remember though, a lot of this is overkill ( especially for the softsynths.. you can get great results with far less ).

My modest computer cost a little over $500 USD

One man band - 30 USD

Jammer Pro - 90 USd

Band in a Box - 90 Usd ( you don't need all of these.. may be overkil.. but I like it

Soundfonts - free ( you can add commercial ones, but there are plenty of good free ones out there as well )

Musiclabs Rythym and chords pro ( with all the extra guitar styles and slicy fill in drummer ( definite overkill.. but I LIKE it..lol ) - 300 Usd. Those who are more into modern synth oreinted music could substitute a modular "all in one" type soft workstation such as Reason or Arturia Storm, ( and actually save money with the latter ).

You also need a good host for the Musiclabs R&C and drum tools above. N track and SQ01 don't work here. You need a Vst host anyway so... Sonar or Cubase SX .. another 300 Usd .

If you don't want the musiclabs stuff, you can get N track studio which is a very good low end sequencing and mutitrack ausio program and is also a Vst host for about - 70 USd. You could also use a freeware Vst host such as Buzz, or Plogue Bidule ( ok Plogue is "development ware" but the current beta works pretty well ).

Yamaha SX-yg Softsynth - about 40 Usd

One high quality softsynth up to 200 - 300 Usd, but plenty of other outstanding softsynths for a lot less ( RGC Penatagon is excellent at about 100 Usd )

Crystal softsynth - one of the best in the land and it costs - FREE

Superwave P-8 analog modeling synth - also free and also excellent. Makes me want to but the even mopre powerful commercial version and I probably will.

Midiman audiphile or similar soundcard - 200 USd


So far we've spent up to about around 1700-1900 dollars if you add ALL of this stuff, or a lot less without the Musiclabs plug ins and mid high range sequencer or Reason type modular soft studio.

Of course, if you are reading this, you may already have a computer that will be suitable. Many of us also already have some hardware that can be utilized sound modules and / or midi contollers. Otherwise, a decent midi kb controller can be had for less than 200 USd

A lot of it may be overkill, but the system gives me a ton more options than any hardware arranger ever could, at less than the cost of a high end arranger. Of course I added a few more commercial soft synths because I'm an analog modeling junkie, but not all of them are analog based anyway. I also have several other programs, but some of them aren't necessary for this application, while others cost next to nothing or were outright freeware.

Frank touched on something else that is important. Setup time. This stuff may look complicated to someone who hasn't used it, but I can load up OMB or my SQ01 sequencer with my favorite softsynths faster than I can setup my Motif ES ( I have to load all the samples and user "rom" for my plug ins from a smart media card ).
http://www.kvr-vst.com is a good place to find musch of this stuff and can help point you to several links for better tutorials on how it all works.

For me it's good value for what I spent, but it does take some nitial work to integrate it all.
AJ


[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 01-23-2004).]

Bluezplayer, provided a very good and detailed description of his hybrid music system. I have given mine in other threads but here is my core software:

VST/DX Host:
Brainspawn forte Ensemble

Auto Accompaniment:
Live-Styler
LiveSynth pro & sYnerGiGS (modified)

Lead/Melody Instruments:
B4 & Kontakt
Plus a full line of high quality virtual acoustic instruments (very expensive)

Effects:
Ultrafunk Sonitus:fx suite provided with Sonar

Vocal Harmonizer & Pitch Correction:
DecaBuddy & Antares

Sequencer:
Cubase SX & Sonar 3.1

Virtual Midi Cables:
Midi Yoke


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 01-24-2004).]

Starkeeper I did not comment on your following comment and should have:

"I find it a bit frustrating to find that I require a top of the line P4, when the keyboard mfg don't use powerfull chips."

I understand how you feel. I don't know the answer but my guess is that the hardware/keyboard manufacturers use more than one CPU Chip (of lower than today's standards or power). They could be using one for effects, one for running the sounds and one for the operating system. Also, with lower powered CPUs they don't have to use fans. In addition, the overall quality of the their effects and sounds in today's standard (while good enough for most live performances) is relatively modest. You can buy software (and hardware) reverbs in the thousands of dollars. These are very good but well beyond the reach of most of us.

To put this another way, you could go out and buy a Dell Computer with an Audigy Soundcard for $600 dollars and load a high quality GM/GS/XG 500mb Wavetable and sound just as good as a Motif (or better). This is half the cost of a Motif. Plus you can use your computer for many other things at the same time.

I hope this puts it in some perspective - its all relative. Starkeeper just think of all the choices you have today!!!


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 01-24-2004).]

AJ

Your call for including softsynths in soft arrangers was received loud and clear. I see the need for that and if not for technical difficulties I would have done that right away. Maybe next year.

If you encounter any problems using OMB with an external vst host and softsynths live on stage, then please let me know. Any suggestions for improvement are welcome. Making OMB a VST host, including a softhsynth or playing non-Yamaha styles is not possible right now, anything else goes.

Jos