Assume you are creating a 4-piece band. Play list is country, classic rock, rockabilly, oldies. You have these players:

1. Arranger keyboard / acoustic guitar
2. Acoustic guitar / harmonica
3. Steel guitar / fiddle
4. ?

You love the sound of live drums. However, that presents a couple of problems. When playing styles or midi files from the arranger, the drummer would have to wear headphones and keep time with the perfect time of the arranger.

Second, when all players are playing live, real-time, without any style or midi, there is no bass player. So, that might not sound too good, even adding the drummer. Hey, maybe I could learn to play bass! Not. That would take too long. Plus, I play a mean rhythm guitar.

Your 4th person choice also includes adding an electric guitar player. That means no drummer. You could forget adding a drummer and play your arranger sytles/midis for the foundation of the songs. But... you love live drums. Any thoughts?

Haha, have I posted something like this before? I'll do a search.

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Bill
SmallGig.com

Get your keyboardist to do Bass with his left hand, and get a drummer. I play with a drummer all the time even though I'm using an arranger keyboard (!). Nobody knows the difference and it sounds great. And yes, give the drummer a set of phones.

Chony

Do you always mute the drum parts on the arranger?

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Bill
SmallGig.com

No I don't mute the drums on the keyboard and I don't even mic the live drums. They compliment each other because the live set is live and the keyboard set is mixed well.

Unless you have an incredible drummer,forget it. Most of the drummers I've worked with couldn't keep rigid time worth a damned. Consequently, unless you're playing left hand bass, and following the drummer, it won't work.

Good Luck,

Gary



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Travlin' Easy

My situation is similar to Chony's---live drummer with sax and guitar, along with arranger tracks. Works great. People think it's a real band, which it is, I guess.

If you can play well with both hands, you'll never need tracks, especially with that set of styles you play in, heck, play LH Bass and add a drummer.

I play part of the time in a 4-piece, two guitars, drums and me (only the drummer isn't a singer), and partly in a duo with one of the guitarists. If both the guitarists are decent, you don't have to play too much with the RH, colors, pads, keyboard signature licks, keep the LH solid, you're in business.

If you wanted to add a bass player instead of a drummer, I would only do that if you have one of the arrangers famed for it's 'live' drum sound (newer Rolands, Ketrons, etc.) and then make sure the onstage monitors play the drum part darn near as loud as a real drummer. For some unknown reason, guitarists have a very hard time adjusting their playing - honed from years of playing in deafening garage bands, I guess - to the politer drum sounds and lowered volumes that typify arranger use.

Once you have trained up that LH well, you also have the option of even duo work (probably 50% or more of my duo is just drum part and LH bass) being less reliant on all the machines, and the public tends to like seeing someone actually playing the parts, especially anything other than just the rhythm stuff (again, even with arranger use, I tend to turn off nearly all the parts, and just have Bass/Drums/Comp done by the arranger).

Unfortunately, I have hardly ever seen a local band with a drummer make good use of tracks, especially arranger tracks. There is just something out of whack with the expanded dynamics of a real drummer (even if you get him to choke down, he's not going to enjoy it!) and the compressed dynamic of arrangers. If you get a drummer, especially as your songlist is not really keyboard heavy, just forget the machines. You'll be a better player for it.....

I'm the keyboard half of a "Covers" Duo. Dual vocals, Keys, Drums.

For modern uptempo stuff using midi files, drummer locks in no problem because some years ago he had to learn to play ballroom "fixed tempo" music at EXACTLY the right speed (initially by using a metronome) so playing at a specific speed and not changing tempo is now second nature.

I agree that drummers left to their own devices can be variable in tempo, but lets not forget that before styles and midi files the drummer / bass / rhythm set the tempo and its a bit of a culture shock to have to maintain tempo against an external reference!

In summary: You need a good drummer and excellent discipline but it's not impossible.

I forgot to mention: these days having a drummer makes us almost a novelty act but a lot of people who haven't seen us before come up to say that having the drummer makes it so much more "live" than other acts, and thats after a 45 minute up-tempo dance spot that is almost all "supported" by midi-files.

After reading the other comments above, I guess I'd agree that if you don't have a great drummer - don't even try it. My drummer is actually really good and has a very quick ear -- he locks in very quickly and I change songs without even notifying him. And he has no problem following me - its not very hard considering I have an 18inch QSC subwoofer on the stage which is impossible to ignore.

Add a sax player that plays some persussion, forget the additional guitar and drummer.
Ahhhh.

Here's what I would do: Get a dynamite drummer who can play tasteful percussion, and a bass player. Make sure the 2nd guitar player is a real player who can solo. When you use the arranger function, switch the drummer to a percussion kit. Make sure that the bass player can double on another instrument. That way, you can add a little showmanship and variety of instrumentation. I've taught basic keyboard cords to my bass player, and this works out well.

Then, for duo jobs, use the guitar player.

It's fun to change the line-up and you can price jobs with the right number of players.


Russ

UD, you hit the spot!

Talking of subwoofers...

We have 2 PA's.

The small system - 2 full range cab's on poles.

The big system - Active crossover, 2 big amps, 15" Black Widow bass cabs with BOSE 802 flyers

The drummer hankers after changing the small system to "decent subwoofer and use the BOSEs". He could have a point; there's a distinct lack of bass coming back with the current "small" system, also you can't argue with the quality of the 802's.

With a live drummer, I would strongly suggest a sub. You nned that ooomph to compete with the volume peaks of the drums, and level out the low end energy.

I'm becoming persuaded!

EXACTLY whatI do...

My sax guy also plays Clarinet and flute, so we have good flexibility.

Also, I recently hooked up with a former Nashville scene pedal steel player who is marvelous! (He's toured with Jerry Lee Lewis and Marty Robbins among others...)Well, we hit it off right away and the crowd went goo-goo over the sound we put out.

The drummer from my quartet is a very solid drummer...we do ballroom stuff 80% of the time, but it sounds like dog crap when he tried to play with the Tyros. He's fairly busy...and when he stripped his beats down far enough to not get in the Tyros' way, it sounded stupid...

I won't even try it again...

Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 12-28-2006).]

If he can do Ballroom stuff then playing along with a Tyros should be possible; can you thin out the Tyros parts to leave space for the live drums?

Could you send a click track out of the aux on the tyros for the drummr to keep in time. That would be great as you can create a seperate mix for the drumer to keep intime, only thing is that he would hav e to wear headphones or have a monitor speaker?

There's something I just don't seem to comprehend here. If you get a drummer, sax player, guitar player, flute player, fiddle player, and a singer, what in the hell do you need an arranger keyboard for. And, the way the proceeds will be split, maybe you'll have enough money to have that cosmetic surgery you've always wanted--NOT.

One of the main reason I bought an arranger keyboard was I no longer needed the drummer, guitar player, bass player, fiddle player, etc. I no longer have to split the proceeds with anyone, I don't have to worry about who is gonna' show up on time, whether their equipment works, or any of the other problems associated with working with other performers.

Forget the drummer--he can't keep time worth a damned. Forget the bass player, sax player, fiddle player, guitar player, and singer, all of which claimed they didn't get enough money, and constantly wanted to mess with the mixer. Instead, learn to use the keyboard to its fullest extent and you'll book more jobs than you can handle, plus collect bigger paychecks. If someone wants to hire a three or four-piece band, send them to the bands that play loud and lousy.

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

I hear ya, Gary. I wrote this long, detailed response and thought, heck, it just boils down to this: Having the interaction and sound that only having excellent bandmates provides is worth it to me for some gigs. I will continue to play solo but nothing compares to having good bandmates. Of course, there are negatives but if they are dependable and you like them, that removes most of the negatives.

No arranger can compete with a real drummer, fiddler, steel guitar or harmonica player. There is no contest. And it makes me happy.

Plus, for me, personally, I am fleshing out some original songs to make them shine and (pertaining to this thread), a drummer would surely help with the uptempo, rockabilly, country-rock stuff. I don't know if I'll do it or not. It would take a special drummer, for sure.

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Bill
SmallGig.com

I kind of feel sorry for people that have obviously played with such poor musicians that an arranger IS preferable to a live band. My advice would be, either start playing with MUCH better players, or take a hard, objective listen to your OWN playing, and ask yourself 'Do I have the chops to make these good players want to play with ME.....?'

Just because your arranger makes you SOUND as if you can play, doesn't necessarily mean that, once you are not using it, you actually CAN.......

I would advise EVERYBODY that primarily plays an arranger to spend at least SOME time playing with real musicians, just to get a reality check. And, who knows? you might rediscover that your left hand is good for more than just playing chords!

Bill,

Load this Black Velvet style in your PSR-2000 and let me know if the drums are hot enough for you.

Good Luck,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy