I've been a trumpet player for 25 years and used to do many gigs at local churches. I stopped performing several years ago as I found it harder and harder to reconcile my personel religious beliefs with the various denominations that I was playing at. It seems that most of the time that the churches I played at assumed and some virtually insisted that I share their beliefs.

This came to a head for me during a sermon where the minister was insisting that the earth was only 5,000 years old and that the scientific community was lying and producing false evidence to make the world appear millions of years old in order to discredit religion. After encountering more than a few churches that have belief systems contrary to mine I decided to stop playing churches. I felt guilty nodding my head and taking their money when deep down I was in complete disbelief.

Now a few years later I'm thinking about doing more performing and I'm considering getting back into church performances. I guess my question to the community here is:

"Do you believe it is ethical to play in churches even though you may not share their beliefs and to keep the gigs you have to 'go along' and basically patronize them?"

I don't believe we should live a lie..If you have to make believe you are in harmony with their faith..that is wrong..If I am strongly opposed to a faith and are in a situation to converse, I would give my basis for believing or not...
Be up front, if you don't agree with something..state it, they may still want you to be a part of the service,and who knows, maybe you could persude them to what you believe..

I think that is exactly how it comes down for me. The hard part is not really knowing before you go in what to expect.

One thing I did learn though is that if people believe the entire scientific community is lying about the age of the earth, and dinasaurs are a fabrication; a trumpet player from down the street isn't going to change those belief systems!

I did in fact ask the minister about China's 5,000 years of documented history and his response was the only history I'll ever need is in the bible.

I perfectly understand how you feel. Particularly during the summer I'm asked to play in numerous wedding parties, and sometimes I'm also asked to make the musical accompaniement of the religious ceremony (catholic churches). I did not have a religious education nor I share the christian belief, so the ceremony is a somewhat strange celebration for me. I always have a slight feel of discomfort, as if I was not part of the whole thing. When approached by a couple and invited to play in church in a wedding, I propose a very light musical act based on well known classical tunes like the Wedding March, the Bridal Chorus, the Ave Maria(s), etc, as I do not known well the specific liturgic repertoires. It turns out that many couples accept and end up enjoying this kind of musical program, although I live in a region with extremely strong catholic influences and beliefs. I never charge extra money for what I do in church (I make it a gift). Hopefully, this summer I met - by chance - an excellent liturgic singer in my town. He sang Ave Maria (Gounod) and I played the music in the church organ. I'll probably put the couples that hire me in contact with him, as he knowns the liturgic repertoire like the palm of his hand and feels much more at ease than me. Due to the nature of the celebration, a person that shares the common belief will potencially do a better job as the musician.

Although having felt a slight discomfort for several times, I never had the sensation that somebody was trying to impose me his beliefs. To answer your question, IF one knows what one's doing (one understands what is going on and the meaning in the different parts of the religious celebration), and IF one does not feel uncomfortable (that is: there is a mutual tolerance regarding one's belief and the community belief - no pressure from each side), I do not consider unethical to play in churches. This seems to me a very personal matter: you have to understand what your conscience tells you.

-- José.

The big question is this:
Are you being paid to play music, or are you expected to be a part of the congregation as they celebrate a service?

Good point. Previously I was only getting about $75-$100 per service. But lately some of the more evangical churches with big congregations have been regularly offering good music acts $250+. I personally know a very great trumpet player who gets $1000 or half the plate whichever is more. But he is not just an incredible trumpet player, he goes beyond just the trumpet playing and actually gives mini-sermons as well. But it's those kind of numbers that have definitely got me thinking about church gigs again.

So part of my conflict is that I'm definitely going to be stepping into the church because I want to play music and make some money doing it; not because I want to be part of their congregation.

I would say that no matter what I would resign myself to treating them with respect. When I'm in their church then I only think it's right that my personal beliefs are left at the door.

My opinion is that it probably depends on the churches you go to. If they think that you share their beliefs and that is one of the reasons you are hired then you should let them know if you are not what they think you are and see if they still want to hire you.

As far as your personal belief and differences with your customers' beliefs, even if you are a professional musician then you should also consider if you are bothered by it and whether it is in great contradiction with your faith. If so, then you should not take the gig. But about the earth being 5000 yrs old, I don't think it's such a great hurdle to overcome. At least they do not ask you to worship something that you are not allowed to (according to your beliefs). If they require you to do such a thing then you should find another gig.

Now, if you are a Christian, the spiritual reference is there in the Bible. Take Daniel in the old testament bible, he served the Babylon king who worshipped a different entity (an idol) but when he was required to worship their idol, he flatly refused. God apparently blessed his life even though he served a king who clearly did not worship the same God as Daniel's.

Nod....and take the money

zuki

Would they hire you if they knew you didn't share their beliefs? If they would, then go ahead - take the job -- they're not hiring you as a pastor but as an entertainer.

If they feel that somebody who did not share their beliefs would not do as good a job (for whatever reason), then you probably should not. In other words just be honest with yourself and with them. I know for example that in our community we often take performers who are not of our affiliation and it is not an issue. Because they are there to perform, not to minister.


Getting to the other thing you mentioned about the world being 5000 years old. Believe it or not, this is a belief of many religions and affiliations. In fact to be exact, on the 16th of September it will be exactly 5765 years.

I disagree with what the priest said about the scientific community lying or misleading people. That is obviously farce, however I will try to do justice to an extremely lengthy and complex discussion in the space of the next few lines:

You might be familiar with the beginning of the bible where it talks about G-d's six day creation of the universe. It talks about the order of creation. On one day the stars were created, on another trees, on another animals and birds, and on the last, man and woman. Just by reading the bible it becomes very apparant that the tree which was created was a full grown tree, ortherwise it would be called a sapling. So were the birds and animals - after all they were all capable of flying and moving around. In fact on the day man was created, he had a conversation with G-d. Now babies can't talk, so he was obviously a grown man.

In other words, G-d didn't create a new world; he created a mature world. A world that was fully ready to be inhabited as if it was there for millions of years. A world with complex life forms, rock formations, history, and with a natural beginning.

Just to clarify...
Take it or leave it!

Chony

[This message has been edited by chony (edited 09-02-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by chony:
Would they hire you if they knew you didn't share their beliefs? If they would, then go ahead - take the job -- they're not hiring you as a pastor but as an entertainer.

If they feel that somebody who did not share their beliefs would not do as good a job (for whatever reason), then you probably should not. In other words just be honest with yourself and with them. I know for example that in our community we often take performers who are not of our affiliation and it is not an issue. Because they are there to perform, not to minister.

As a church musician and music director, I hire instrumentalists, not necessarily members of my denomination. I have also played at churches of other faiths. The issue for me is the same on both sides - can the musician be respectful of the situation at hand (liturgy, service, worship, etc.). I do not expect my musicians to pray aloud or even follow along, BUT I would expect some sort of decorum. I have no problem with them going outside during the sermon, as long as it is not distracting. Conversely, I have no problem staying at my station during another's service and meditating or praying in my own way. For $250 I could ignore a lot of religious mumbo-jumbo (whatever that means to you)

[This message has been edited by cassp (edited 09-02-2004).]

As for me, I would NEVER play there. Ever. No way will I ever do anything to help promote such ignorance. I wouldn't toot one note for such crap. Religious b.s. alone hinders humankind more than anything else and I don't want one penny. As for you, it's up to you, obviously. But that's my take on it.

Peace and Love, that 60s stuff

Here is my perspective.

There are some Major doctrines and Minor doctrines. The Major doctrines are the dividing line. One of them is the Trinity or the deity of Christ. If you do not believe in that, It does not make sense to attend a church that does and vice versa.

However, "6000" years for the age of the earth is truly a minor doctrine. Each christian in the church can have his or her opinion. In fact, the pastor too is allowed to have his opinion about this as well and it should not bother you at all. This brings me to another point.

Why were you bothered by the 6000 speech? If you know that the evidence are empty, you should smile and forget about it. But if it makes you uncomfortable, shouldn't you pay even closer attention?

Having said this, I strongly believe 6000 years for the age of the earth is neither scientific nor biblical. This is true even for the Young Earth view. If one added all the years in the bible, one would get far more years than 6000 years even with the literal 24 hours 6-days of creation.

Am I missing something here ?!?!? ... are you being hired as a musician or a disciple of their church??? ... I know a number of musician that play in bars but they don't drink ... as a young player I played for strippers, but didn't strip ...
I've played for Catholics, Protestants and Jews ... What is the big deal?!?!? .. they can believe what they want, I believe what I want .... As long as the money is American ...
t.
PS ... If you don't like what they're preaching and it REALLY bothers you, don't play there ...

[This message has been edited by tony mads usa (edited 09-02-2004).]

I am a devout Christian, but it is entirely up to you what you believe. At the end, we will all individually have to be subject to God's judgement. However, God gave us free will, for a reason, I believe it was because He trusted that something good would come from it.

If one is playing at a religious service one should be reverent and respectful of others. As long as that organization is not promoting anti-social behaviors you can just play along, and do the job you have been contracted to do. You are enhancing their worship experience and should be paid accordingly.



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Graham

In my many years of performing live I am sure that all the audiences had a wide range of beliefs differing from mine. I was there to perform music not exchange ideological beliefs.

If they do not expect you to believe as they do, then it's just a gig. If they do say sorry, no can do and let them decide on whether they still want you to play for their congregation.
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

As a Christian- but a non-fundamentalist one- I don't think that the Supreme Power of the universe cares one whit about my silly little religious opinions. What is important is that I'm honest with the people I'm dealing with.

I think it's up to you to decide what you wish to have your playing "associated" with. Here I would differentiate between that which is simply well-intentioned but ignorant, and that which is malicious and harmful.

If one wants to believe that the earth is flat, only 6000 years old, or whatever, I'd have no problem. But some religous sects go beyond this, and denigrate other religions and cultures, leading to the well-documented evils of racism, anti-semitism, jingoism, etc.

In other words, I would happily celebrate with Christian, Bhuddist, Jewish, Islamic, or Atheist brothers and sisters in any venue, but would NOT participate in an event sponsored by either Jerry Falwell or al-Quaida, wherein I perceived that the "religion" is used as a weapon to pursue some other social or political agenda.

In Christian lexicon, this is known as "Wolves in sheeps' clothing."

Michael

My dad owns a sound system rental company. We definitely cater to churches as a pretty good portion of our sales more than any other companies in the countries...BUT we also offer the same services not only to different (Christian)denomination, even to muslims

It's all business. Unless they're clearly wrong and worship the devil I don't see anything wrong playing for different churches.

Good points by all. This should clear up your dilema, no?

Michael

My feelings exactly.
Terry



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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html